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Jon Stewart is a bleeping moron.

No, Stewart's quite right that Krauthammer's flippant, apologist, and mindlessly meaningless comment does point to a very dead soul. Sorry, but you have it wrong.

You mean the facts that Palestinians are actually obese, that they have higher Per Capita GDP's than their neighbors, and they have high literacy, and life expectancy rates and low infant mortality rates does nothing to prove Krauthammers point? Interesting.
 
You mean the facts that Palestinians are actually obese, that they have higher Per Capita GDP's than their neighbors, and they have high literacy, and life expectancy rates and low infant mortality rates does nothing to prove Krauthammers point? Interesting.

So, to summarize, Gazans are all big fatties so they can't be starving. Do they smell poopie as well? The level of your debate is...interesting.
 
Personally I think this whole food argument, or whether the Palestinians can be referred to as "starving" or not, along with all the charts, data, indicators, etc etc are all just dancing around the real answer to the question and the real issue. The real answer is simply to look at the amount of food aid into Gaza, which can be fairly accurately estimated, then assume its being distributed evenly and see if those numbers are acceptable, by your standards, if they arent then you know someone is missing out by your standards. Then one also needs to go or receive accurate reports of how the food is being distributed, since Hamas largely controls that process and I doubt its fair by any reasonable standard. However thats difficult to do as its extremely hard for foreigners to get into Gaza, Al-Jezzera is unfortunately the only news source that can reasonably and often do it and unfortunately they are biased, especially regarding Israel.

So since we don't have all the data lets make what I think are reasonable assumptions based partially on data and partially on intuition. And see if we can agree.
Firstly, Hamas cannot be trusted to fairly distribute the food aid given to it or that it controls by default once it enters Gaza, so regardless of how much is given this is almost without a doubt a case like Somalia where the warlords and men with guns control the food supply as a means to control the people. Those who fall out of favor suffer for it, so people may still be starving, or at least borderline, if they aren't in favor of Hamas or just aren't important enough. Also Gaza will always be a net food importer, it simply doesn't have the proper land to grow food for its entire population.

Secondly, food is not everything. Its not an acceptable measurement of standard of living or success in turning the Palestinian situation around. One can be dirt poor, unemployed, living in an overcrowded slum, with frequent military incidents, but still well fed with no future prospects except to continue like this. I think Gaza highlights a common problem with UN aid, its what should be a temporary solution turned into a permanent one. Take a look at these pictures for example.

http://mondoweiss.net/images/2010/Joseph/DSC01142.JPG
080429-irin-refuse.jpg


I realize its only two photos, but its just an example. So if we look we can see some kids waving with a soccer ball, probably at a UN or news camera, they are obviously well fed. HOWEVER if we look at the 2nd photo we still what the majority of Gazans do for a living, which is dig through trash or other extremely low paying activities. They may eat well, but thats only because of the aid, they are not in any capacity to one day actually purchase the food many of them eat or increase their standard of living. THAT is the real problem, not their food aid, its their growth potential economically and personally. You can blame Hamas or Israel or both or whoever, regardless of whose fault you think it is, we should all be able to agree thats the REAL problem and the one which all these aid groups, Israel, and Hamas are overlooking. Its like that old saying, "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach him how to fish and you feed him for a life time." Everyone is giving them fish, no one is teaching them fishing so to speak.

So my 3rd point is that Gaza needs to have growth potential both as a whole and among its citizens, which is quite frankly a greater concern than independence from Israel or the other on-going debates. Gaza is for all practical concerns independent and totally controls its domestic policy for the most part, but independent or not the same problems will still exist on the ground. Economically Gaza needs to grow to provide futures for its citizens, a young man currently has only ONE option for self-betterment in Gaza and that is join Hamas. He can't become a goat farmer and think "If I work real hard one day I'll be managing other goat farms, own a nice car, marry a nice girl and live in a nice house." He'll work himself as hard as he can to barely get by and never improve his lot in life. Hamas however has an organizational hierarchy which one can work up in, which means a stronger purpose in life because now he's not farming goats he's "fighting for his God and his people" in his mind. He also can afford to have goals, where he actually can work hard and be recognized, respected in his community, and be rewarded for his efforts, the smart ones aren't suicide bombers. Hamas is many bad things but one quality it does have is a merit based system, although not traditional "merits." Gaza needs people like that, who are willing to work hard, be successful etc, but they need to be using their motivation, drive and talents in more productive places.

Anyway I could keep writing but I dont want to make it so long no one will read and i think I got my major point across.
 
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So, to summarize, Gazans are all big fatties so they can't be starving. Do they smell poopie as well? The level of your debate is...interesting.

No actually "Palestinians are actually obese, that they have higher Per Capita GDP's than their neighbors, and they have high literacy, and life expectancy rates and low infant mortality rates," was the summary of the facts.
 
No actually "Palestinians are actually obese, that they have higher Per Capita GDP's than their neighbors, and they have high literacy, and life expectancy rates and low infant mortality rates," was the summary of the facts.

You still have yet to prove that Gaza has a high obesity rate, and that it isn't just the West Bank bumping the numbers up a little.

This discussion is about Gaza specifically.
 
Referring to Gaza, CNN article from today:
While international aid agencies say there is no starvation or acute medical crisis there, malnutrition is creeping up, water treatment and sewage are problematic and the economy has been almost entirely shut down by the blockade, which is also enforced by Egypt. The United States and other world powers say that the situation is untenable and that a new approach must be found.
Israeli Military Boards Gaza-Bound Aid Ship - NYTimes.com
 

Also from today:

Dispatch: Just how hungry is Gaza? - Telegraph

"There is no starvation in Gaza," said Khalil Hamada, a senior official at Hamas's ministry of justice. "No-one has died of hunger.

Granted, we can debate on how trustworthy a Hamas official is :2razz: (couldn't help it)

I haven't found anything to suggest Gazans are obese.

But it looks as though there is a consensus on all sides that they are not starving.
 
Today Jon Stewart took issue with Charles Krauthammer asserting that people in Gaza weren't starving and said something along the lines that Krauthammer has no heart, well guess what Stewart you ignorant little ****, not only are they not starving their men are the 8th most obese in the world and their women are the third most obese in the world.

http://vladtepesblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/14-Obesity.jpg

It was pathetic but right on course for Stewart and his inability to ge tthe facts straight. He even quoted Krauthammer then claimed he said something he never stated.
 
I agree that Stewart makes some stupid comments and this is one of them. But taking advice from Stewart himself, people should be watching Comedy Central for Comedy not for news.

Note: I do enjoy Stewart's show. I just made this post to signify that he himself has basically stated that he doesn't do this show for news. IF you are upset about what he is reporting watch CNN, Fox, or MSNBC.

I would be much more inclined to let it go if he hadn't been so serious in the presentation.
 
I saw that episode, and he did not say anything along the lines of he has no heart. He asserted that what Krauthammer said was the dumbest thing he has ever heard, and he's not wrong. And what evidence do you present to back up your claim? OBESITY Rates, that's what you have? That's it. ****ing hell dude, do you wanna go live in Gaza, I'll pay for you to go there, I can afford it, go live there dude.

Invasion Deepens Humanitarian Crisis in Gaza - ABC News

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Gaza's humanitarian crisis



Whether you agree with Israel, support them I do not give a flying crap.

Palestinians do NOT live in the lap of luxury.

He did dude. Check out the episode on Hulu at 7 minutes in. He said Krauthammer had a black heart.

But the most important thing was he equated Krauthammer claiming there was no suffering with starvation and that wasn't what he said. He simply said people were not starving. He certainly never said they weren't suffereing. Suffering has many facits. Starvation is only one of them.
 
Glad to see we are right back to "Not uh" and "ya huh." Who cares if they are fat or not or what their obesity rate was 7 years ago, the answer to that question is MEANINGLESS. Regardless of who wins this argument, its answer can't be used anywhere else! Whats important is that they arent starving, which seems to be the case, not how much they aren't starving by, and now its time to debate where to go from there. So put down the partisan fisticuffs and talk about something that matters.
 
Also from today:

Dispatch: Just how hungry is Gaza? - Telegraph



Granted, we can debate on how trustworthy a Hamas official is :2razz: (couldn't help it)

I haven't found anything to suggest Gazans are obese.

But it looks as though there is a consensus on all sides that they are not starving.

The funny thing is though: here we have all these people on the right who are talking about how well-off the Palestinians on the Gaza Strip are. And the people agreeing with them are Hammas.

So, is it the new belief of the American right that Hammas governs well? Cause that's what Hammas wants us to believe...and so do several people in this thread.

I would argue that Hammas is pretty lousy. The Israeli government isn't doing the best PR job with the rest of the world; but Hammas ain't so hot a government - and if they're people aren't starving, their unemployment rate is near 50% and 2/3 to 80% of their people rely on aid to survive. So, maybe starving is an exaggeration; but some of you sound like you're practically kissing Hamada and the rest of the Hammas leadership just in an effort to prove critics of Israel wrong.
 
Personally I think this whole food argument, or whether the Palestinians can be referred to as "starving" or not, along with all the charts, data, indicators, etc etc are all just dancing around the real answer to the question and the real issue. The real answer is simply to look at the amount of food aid into Gaza, which can be fairly accurately estimated, then assume its being distributed evenly and see if those numbers are acceptable, by your standards, if they arent then you know someone is missing out by your standards. Then one also needs to go or receive accurate reports of how the food is being distributed, since Hamas largely controls that process and I doubt its fair by any reasonable standard. However thats difficult to do as its extremely hard for foreigners to get into Gaza, Al-Jezzera is unfortunately the only news source that can reasonably and often do it and unfortunately they are biased, especially regarding Israel.

So since we don't have all the data lets make what I think are reasonable assumptions based partially on data and partially on intuition. And see if we can agree.
Firstly, Hamas cannot be trusted to fairly distribute the food aid given to it or that it controls by default once it enters Gaza, so regardless of how much is given this is almost without a doubt a case like Somalia where the warlords and men with guns control the food supply as a means to control the people. Those who fall out of favor suffer for it, so people may still be starving, or at least borderline, if they aren't in favor of Hamas or just aren't important enough. Also Gaza will always be a net food importer, it simply doesn't have the proper land to grow food for its entire population.

Secondly, food is not everything. Its not an acceptable measurement of standard of living or success in turning the Palestinian situation around. One can be dirt poor, unemployed, living in an overcrowded slum, with frequent military incidents, but still well fed with no future prospects except to continue like this. I think Gaza highlights a common problem with UN aid, its what should be a temporary solution turned into a permanent one. Take a look at these pictures for example.

http://mondoweiss.net/images/2010/Joseph/DSC01142.JPG
080429-irin-refuse.jpg


I realize its only two photos, but its just an example. So if we look we can see some kids waving with a soccer ball, probably at a UN or news camera, they are obviously well fed. HOWEVER if we look at the 2nd photo we still what the majority of Gazans do for a living, which is dig through trash or other extremely low paying activities. They may eat well, but thats only because of the aid, they are not in any capacity to one day actually purchase the food many of them eat or increase their standard of living. THAT is the real problem, not their food aid, its their growth potential economically and personally. You can blame Hamas or Israel or both or whoever, regardless of whose fault you think it is, we should all be able to agree thats the REAL problem and the one which all these aid groups, Israel, and Hamas are overlooking. Its like that old saying, "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach him how to fish and you feed him for a life time." Everyone is giving them fish, no one is teaching them fishing so to speak.

So my 3rd point is that Gaza needs to have growth potential both as a whole and among its citizens, which is quite frankly a greater concern than independence from Israel or the other on-going debates. Gaza is for all practical concerns independent and totally controls its domestic policy for the most part, but independent or not the same problems will still exist on the ground. Economically Gaza needs to grow to provide futures for its citizens, a young man currently has only ONE option for self-betterment in Gaza and that is join Hamas. He can't become a goat farmer and think "If I work real hard one day I'll be managing other goat farms, own a nice car, marry a nice girl and live in a nice house." He'll work himself as hard as he can to barely get by and never improve his lot in life. Hamas however has an organizational hierarchy which one can work up in, which means a stronger purpose in life because now he's not farming goats he's "fighting for his God and his people" in his mind. He also can afford to have goals, where he actually can work hard and be recognized, respected in his community, and be rewarded for his efforts, the smart ones aren't suicide bombers. Hamas is many bad things but one quality it does have is a merit based system, although not traditional "merits." Gaza needs people like that, who are willing to work hard, be successful etc, but they need to be using their motivation, drive and talents in more productive places.

Anyway I could keep writing but I dont want to make it so long no one will read and i think I got my major point across.

Amazing that Charles Krauthammer and others don't get this, or they would have gotten Stewart's point.
 
Amazing that Charles Krauthammer and others don't get this, or they would have gotten Stewart's point.

Stewart was a moron. You are going to have to get over this man crush.

Krauthammer never once said there wasn't suffering. He said there wasn't starvation. Do you understand that suffering covers far more than starvation? Your belly can be full and Hamas terrorists can still take over your home and beat your mother.

The idiocy is trying to cover Stewart by pretending suffering only comes in the form of starvation.

Face it. Stewart is a moron and he f'd up.
 
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Glad to see some are agreeing on the starvation issue at least. Now if we can get over this "he said, she said" and start debating the actual issue instead of debating who said what over the issue.
 
I still say people are taking this 2 seriously...unless you guys want him to put a disclaimer before every show telling in big red letters that this is nothing but comedy and should not be taken seriously..
Cause when he is serious on some shows like when he debated the mad money guy he usually does not eff up..thats my opinion :p
 
I still say people are taking this 2 seriously...unless you guys want him to put a disclaimer before every show telling in big red letters that this is nothing but comedy and should not be taken seriously..
Cause when he is serious on some shows like when he debated the mad money guy he usually does not eff up..thats my opinion :p

That's a ****ing cop-out, Stuart is a political commentator, people take what he says seriously, he takes what he says seriously, he is absolutely no different than Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, or Keith Olbermann. The Daily Show WAS a strictly comedy show back in the Craig Killborn era, but NOW it is a left leaning political show with comedic elements like Bill Mahr.
 
You still have yet to prove that Gaza has a high obesity rate, and that it isn't just the West Bank bumping the numbers up a little.

This discussion is about Gaza specifically.

I posted links showing that the infant mortality rate and life expectancy rate in both Gaza and the West Bank are about the same in 2010, that demonstrates that their is not a huge discrpency between the two.
 
For years, Palestinians and Gazans in particular have reproduced at an astounding rate. This is due to the low status of women in the culture as well as encouragement to provide a human tide with which to overrun Israel. As a consequence, population has exploded in Gaza, where nearly half of the population is 14 and under.

Are those evil Joos also responsible for this? Even though Palestinians receive more aid per capita than any other group in the world, due to their extraordinary birth rates, the corruption of their political system and the fact they devote so much of their resources promoting the killing of Jews, their economy isn't the best. Instead of holding them to ANY decent standards, though, the world just keeps throwing more and more money at them.

If there were any actual liberals in the world they would be attempting to elevate the status of Palestinian women, which would then reduce the astronomical birth rates responsible for what hunger they do experience. No population can sustain a healthy economy when the population doubles every 20 years.
 
Krauthammer never once said there wasn't suffering. He said there wasn't starvation. Do you understand that suffering covers far more than starvation? Your belly can be full and Hamas terrorists can still take over your home and beat your mother.

The idiocy is trying to cover Stewart by pretending suffering only comes in the form of starvation.

There is spin and there is moronic spin. Text went for the latter.
 
For years, Palestinians and Gazans in particular have reproduced at an astounding rate. This is due to the low status of women in the culture as well as encouragement to provide a human tide with which to overrun Israel. As a consequence, population has exploded in Gaza, where nearly half of the population is 14 and under.

Are those evil Joos also responsible for this? Even though Palestinians receive more aid per capita than any other group in the world, due to their extraordinary birth rates, the corruption of their political system and the fact they devote so much of their resources promoting the killing of Jews, their economy isn't the best. Instead of holding them to ANY decent standards, though, the world just keeps throwing more and more money at them.

If there were any actual liberals in the world they would be attempting to elevate the status of Palestinian women, which would then reduce the astronomical birth rates responsible for what hunger they do experience. No population can sustain a healthy economy when the population doubles every 20 years.

Again im amazed that the 300% rise of population that came as a result of the 1948 war doesnt factor into this. Refugees still make up the overwhelming majority of Gaza's population. Israels policy over the past decades has been ridiculos. Those in Gaza have been squesed into a tiny strip of land with limited water (thus effectively destroying its potential for sustainiable agriculture), this has resulted in its becoming the most densely place on earth in which one in four males are dependant on aid and yet we are surprised when they opt for religious extreamism (which in itself only really emerged in Gaza after the first intifadah).
 
That's a ****ing cop-out, Stuart is a political commentator, people take what he says seriously, he takes what he says seriously, he is absolutely no different than Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, or Keith Olbermann. The Daily Show WAS a strictly comedy show back in the Craig Killborn era, but NOW it is a left leaning political show with comedic elements like Bill Mahr.

If you get your news from Comedy Central...I feel sorry for you ;)
 
Stewart was a moron. You are going to have to get over this man crush.

Krauthammer never once said there wasn't suffering. He said there wasn't starvation. Do you understand that suffering covers far more than starvation? Your belly can be full and Hamas terrorists can still take over your home and beat your mother.

The idiocy is trying to cover Stewart by pretending suffering only comes in the form of starvation.

Face it. Stewart is a moron and he f'd up.

I just like good comedy, especially when the comedian is spot on in his critique. A lot better than Beck's nonsense. ;)
 
Gazans get $1,250 a year in international funds?!?! Oh wow. That's a little less than $3 a day. They're sure rolling in that dough.
 
Gazans get $1,250 a year in international funds?!?! Oh wow. That's a little less than $3 a day. They're sure rolling in that dough.

3$ a day from humanitarian organizations, 3$ a day from donors per citizen.
How much do they get in Darfur per day from humanitarian organizations?
 
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