Immigrants speaking English: Why do you care, anyway?

[X Factor]

I said that? Can you show me where?

You sure seem to object strongly to those who suggest that it's not exactly egregious to expect those immigrating to another country to learn the common language of that country.

 

[Redress]

You sure seem to object strongly to those who suggest that it's not exactly egregious to expect those immigrating to another country to learn the common language of that country.

Did not say that either. Why are you so insistent in putting words in my mouth?

 

[Tucker Case]

If you were going to answer your own question in the OP, why did you ask it?

How did I answer the question "Why do you care?" in the OP? I certainly did not provide anyone else's answers.

 

[roguenuke]

So should we force them to speak English?

No. We all adapt, but it isn't just those that are able to hear and speak that adapt. We generally teach those who are deaf to communicate with us in a way we can understand, working with them as much as their disability allows to understand them. Those who come over here though, speaking another language are not impaired from learning to communicate effectively with others they will be interacting regularly with though, as deaf people are.

Plus they do generally "speak" the language of where they live. So if they were to move to a different area, country which spoke a different language, it would behind them to learn that language to be able to read, write, and sign the same as it does those who are able to hear and speak.

 

[Fletch]

How did I answer the question "Why do you care?" in the OP? I certainly did not provide anyone else's answers.

The ones it hurts is the immigrants who cant speak the language. That was your conclusion in your OP and that is correct. You have a unified language so you can have a unified people. In the long run, if you have a country Balkanized by language, you don't have a country. In the short run, the immigrant who doesn't bother to learn the language has little hope of doing much more than living hand to mouth.

 

[Tucker Case]

No. We all adapt, but it isn't just those that are able to hear and speak that adapt. We generally teach those who are deaf to communicate with us in a way we can understand, working with them as much as their disability allows to understand them. Those who come over here though, speaking another language are not impaired from learning to communicate effectively with others they will be interacting regularly with though, as deaf people are.

Plus they do generally "speak" the language of where they live. So if they were to move to a different area, country which spoke a different language, it would behind them to learn that language to be able to read, write, and sign the same as it does those who are able to hear and speak.

It would benefit them to do so, yes. But it would detract nothing from the country they move to should they refuse to do so.

 

[Kal'Stang]

Should, sure. I think everyone agrees on that. But who gives a **** if they don't?

I'd imagine the ones that have to work with those that refuse to learn a different language on a daily basis would care. And there are those that refuse to learn because they think that others should be accommodating them instead. (I know a couple personally myself that think exactly that) I think that most people know that the elderly simply cannot learn another language, but those that are not elderly should be able to and when they refuse to do so simply because they believe that everyone should be accommodating them then it does get frustrating.

 

[Tucker Case]

The ones it hurts is the immigrants who cant speak the language. That was your conclusion in your OP and that is correct.

I agree. But that's why I'm so baffled by how much some people care about immigrants learning English.

You have a unified language so you can have a unified people. In the long run, if you have a country Balkanized by language, you don't have a country. In the short run, the immigrant who doesn't bother to learn the language has little hope of doing much more than living hand to mouth.

People keep saying that if you don't have a language, you don't have a country, but what does that have to do with a small minority of immigrants hurting themselves by not learning English?

There's certainly no chance of there not being a national language, as it has never happened in US history, and for the vast majority (I dare say the entirety) of US history, there have been immigrants who failed to learn English. It's not like this is a new thing. It's not like "assimilation" has ever really happened with the immigrant populations themselves (In almost all cases, "assimilation" occurs with the subsequent generations, not with the actual immigrants).

 

[Tucker Case]

I'd imagine the ones that have to work with those that refuse to learn a different language on a daily basis would care.

Seems like they picked a ****ty job, then. Why would someone take that kind of job if it bothers them so much?

 

[Goshin]

Yeah but the point here is that even in these countries with hundreds of languages, English is winning out as the connector...

Why is this though?

Partially it's because English is extremely malleable... unlike say Parisian French or Japanese, even if someone isn't great at speaking English, you can generally understand what they're getting at, sometimes with every single word in a sentence mispronounced, plus it's adaptable because it borrows words from other languages without any issue which is another reason it is successful, it allows for evolution.

And so again as we've seen when a diverse array of languages exists, English if already seeded within the country becomes a dominant connector (India, Nigeria, South Africa etc.)

And so even if many people, from many different languages came to America (which they have already), English will be a language people will want to learn, use and conduct business in... or not at their own peril.

Therefore the "need" if we're talking in some sort of official requirement becomes redundant.

I mean don't get me wrong, there are some people on this site that could benefit from some sort of legal requirement taken to ensure they move from Gibberish to English but the whole thing seems not really necessary.

Ok, look... I'm quoting myself here because this is an important point for me....

...
Humans have three primary modes of interacting with strangers: Cooperation, trade, or violence. Guess which one is the only one that doesn't require communication. At best, a lack of ability to communicate means we don't interact much at all, and that does NOT foster a sense of fellow-citizenship.

People I can't communicate with make me nervous. It's hard to "connect" emotionally too much with someone who can't understand a word of what you're saying, and vice versa... negotiations are all but impossible, and cooperation is difficult.

That leaves violence... or ignoring each other... which is probably part of why it makes me nervous and frustrated.


In my youth I had an enthusiasm for learning new languages... didn't really know why, I just did. I think I understand "why" now. I took Spanish in high school, and more Spanish in college; also studied Japanese, and learned some basic ASL (American Sign Language).

Why? I know why now... because I HATE not being able to communicate with people! It bugs the hell out of me.

Well there was no one to practice Japanese on so that rusted away to almost nothing. My Espanol is pretty creaky too, since I found out most of our local Hispanics don't speak "proper Spanish" as I was taught in school, but a Mexican or South American dialect that is often all but incomprehensible to anyone who isn't fluent in it. I've been working on that, but it is slow going.

I'd once had vague plans of learning German, French, and at least one Chinese language as well... but as it turns out my enthusiasm for other languages far exceeded my ability to learn and retain them in the absence of an "immersive environment".

Now somebody already in this thread, likes to jump on me at this point and call me a hypocrite because I admit my only real "second language" is Espanol and I'm not so great at it. This is BS because I live in a country where English IS the gorram common tongue! It would be different if I moved to Mexico where the dominant language is Espanol (dialect that is), but I didn't... THEY came HERE. They need to learn the dominant lingua-franca of the nation they moved to.


So I can talk to them and tell them how much I like chile rellenos and Mariachi music and how about we barbecue together sometime?


Well actually I could manage that much, but I can't really hold a conversation with a Mexican Espanol-speaker. They talk too damn fast and their pronunciation and word choices are very different from the Espanol I learned long ago so we can't really communicate unless they speak English.


And I'd really like to communicate. I think it is VERY important. My STRONG desire to communicate is probably the single biggest driver of my views on this subject.


How the hell do you live in peace and maintain a peaceable meeting of the minds if you can't gorram TALK to each other??

 

[Kal'Stang]

Seems like they picked a ****ty job, then. Why would someone take that kind of job if it bothers them so much?

Why would someone choose to be a police officer? A firemen? A doctor? A building inspector? People don't take jobs because of language. They take jobs because that is what they A: Need to do and/or B: Because they like doing the type of work they do. The only people that have ever picked a job that was due to language are interpreters. No one else ever considers it.

 

[Tucker Case]

How the hell do you live in peace and maintain a peaceable meeting of the minds if you can't gorram TALK to each other??

I live in peace and maintain a peacable meeting of the minds with many people I cannot talk to. I find it more difficult to maintain that status with some people after I've spoken with them and discover that I find their views reprehensible. for example, I can certainly communicate with a flat-out balls to the wall racist, but I find myself feeling more inclined toward violence when I do so. That person would be far far safer if they couldn't communicate their views with me.

 

[Summerwind]

Seems like they picked a ****ty job, then. Why would someone take that kind of job if it bothers them so much?

On the other, I, for example, cannot get a job in close proximity to where I am at because not being either bilingual Spanish or Chinese, I can't work. They have enough patrons that only speak other languages that everyone employed has to be bilingual. Now again, I find this to be a fault of mine and am not angered by it, however it is an issue, and a legitimate one.

So for me to get a job that will allow me to move to an area where this is not required (which will cost me more monthly to live at), I have to spend between $7 & $10 in gas to travel to a business situation where English only is okay, but our shifts are so short, that sometimes in the end I only gross $28 for the entire shift by the time gas is taken out, and then there's still taxes to be had. Again, I only fault myself. I was raised in San Antonio, there's absolutely no excuse for me not knowing Spanish, but it can be a real issue as well.

 

[Goshin]

I live in peace and maintain a peacable meeting of the minds with many people I cannot talk to. I find it more difficult to maintain that status with some people after I've spoken with them and discover that I find their views reprehensible. for example, I can certainly communicate with a flat-out balls to the wall racist, but I find myself feeling more inclined toward violence when I do so. That person would be far far safer if they couldn't communicate their views with me.

Well, unless you're a misanthrope that is a relatively rare exception, not a rule. People generally get on better when they can communicate.

 

[Tucker Case]

Why would someone choose to be a police officer? A firemen? A doctor? A building inspector? People don't take jobs because of language. They take jobs because that is what they A: Need to do and/or B: Because they like doing the type of work they do. The only people that have ever picked a job that was due to language are interpreters. No one else ever considers it.

I can see a policeman or fireman getting frustrated by those who don't speak English, but a doctor? There's probably easy access to a translator nearby in any situation where they'd need a translation, and most people seek out doctors that speak their native language anyway.

I don't see a building Inspector having too much trouble. If he chooses to be a building inspector, he knows he'll be dealing with Spanish (and polish here in Chicago).

But I can see why a cop would care (less a fireman, since it shouldn't really affect them. Fire is one hell of a universal communicator of "get the **** out of here!"). Not having one's orders complied to would be potentially dangerous to all parties involved. Good example.

 

[X Factor]

Should, sure. I think everyone agrees on that. But who gives a **** if they don't?



Harm is required to justify the degree of anger some people have about this isssue. In the absence of harm, their anger and concern over this issue is wholly unjustified.



I completely agree that there is no harm. Which is why I don't get why this is such a big issue for some people.

As long as you're completely comfortable saying those who don't learn the language completely, 100% bear any "harm" they encounter because of it, you're being consistent. In other words, if someone does something unwise simply out of not understanding the language, that's their own fault. Is that what you're saying?

 

[Kal'Stang]

As a personal experience. I once worked at a casino here in Bonners Ferry as a technician (fixed the machines whenever they broke). 99.9% of the people I ever met at that job spoke English. When I had to deal with the .1% that didn't (they spoke Spanish) it was very frustrating. I really wanted to help those people to the best of my ability and no one around knew how to speak Spanish so I would go out of my way to try and figure out what they were saying. Sometimes it was easy, other times it was extremely hard. I even borrowed a customers smartphone to try an google the words (which is very hard to do when you don't know how to spell foreign words btw). So I can see why people might get a job, not expecting to having to speak another language, and then when actually having to deal with someone that doesn't speak English, getting very frustrated.

 

[Tucker Case]

Well, unless you're a misanthrope that is a relatively rare exception, not a rule. People generally get on better when they can communicate.

Most people never interact in any way when they can't communicate. It's not a dichotomy of "pleasant interactions" and "violent interactions". It's a dichotomy of "Occasional interaction" and "minimal interaction". There are people you interact with minimally all over the country. In fact, I daresay you have had exactly no interactions with the vast majority of the country. In the vast majority of cases, you cannot communicate with them, regardless of their primary language. That's 300,000,000 million people you can't even TALK to, yet somehow, you consider yourself to be "one people" with them.

don't by that bull**** line you keep repeating, goshin. It's total nonsense. You can't communicate with almost EVERYONE that you consider yourself to be "one people" under the the flag with. You might speak the same language as they do, but you still can't TALK with them. It's not ever happening. You might talk to a fraction of a fraction of them in your lifetime, that's it.

 

[roguenuke]

It would benefit them to do so, yes. But it would detract nothing from the country they move to should they refuse to do so.

No more than any individual can generally change affect any aspect of their government as a single person.

 

[roguenuke]

I can see a policeman or fireman getting frustrated by those who don't speak English, but a doctor? There's probably easy access to a translator nearby in any situation where they'd need a translation, and most people seek out doctors that speak their native language anyway.

I don't see a building Inspector having too much trouble. If he chooses to be a building inspector, he knows he'll be dealing with Spanish (and polish here in Chicago).

But I can see why a cop would care (less a fireman, since it shouldn't really affect them. Fire is one hell of a universal communicator of "get the **** out of here!"). Not having one's orders complied to would be potentially dangerous to all parties involved. Good example.

That would likely depend on the language the person speaks. There are some pretty obscure languages out there.

 

[Tucker Case]

As long as you're completely comfortable saying those who don't learn the language completely....

there's no such thing as an adult who learns a language "completely". Languages acquired in adulthood actually utilize entirely different portions of the brain than those acquired in childhood. You cannot gain the same level of mastery with a alangueage acquired in adulthood that a native speaker posseses. If you are gifted at languages, or have learned multiple languages in childhood, you can get very close, but most people are not that gifted. They actually process the language differently than they do their native tongue.

this is scientific fact. I would not say something that is in direct contradiction to the known scientific facts about language acquisition.

What I'm surprised by is that you talk about how difficult languages are for you, yet you don't seem to have any empathy for those acquiring a new language. I assume you learned English pretty easily. You were a kid when you did it. You will NEVER be as good at any other language. Ever. Under any circumstances. Trust me, if you moved to another country and managed to learn the language, you would almost certainly want to have access to English translators, especially in times of stress.

 

[Tucker Case]

That would likely depend on the language the person speaks. There are some pretty obscure languages out there.

True, but people who speak obscure languages have no ability to refuse to learn English. They don't have any way of doing anything without learning it. It's only possible when there are enough people who speak the same language as you to "get away" with it (even with considerable harm to one's self). If there's nobody but you, you're going to experience exponentially more harm by refusing.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Why do people care so much if an immigrant is speaking English or their native language? I hear people piss and moan all the time about having to "press 1 for English", for example, as though they are somehow victimized by having to press a button. What the **** difference does it make to you? Are you harmed in some way? Does it wound you?

Because, as far as I can tell, the only person who suffers when an immigrant fails to learn English is the immigrant his/herself. It limits their ability to find jobs, it limits their ability to access services and receive assistance, etc.

It seems to me that people whining about immigrants speaking something other than English is nothing more than victim-mentality nonsense, but I could be wrong. so please enlighten me: How are you harmed? Why do you even care?

It's about a loss of privilege and control. For hundreds of years, the United States has catered to English speakers almost exclusively. Now, businesses and the government are catering to Spanish speakers as well and for (usually white) "native" Americans, this development threatens their privileged place in society. This is scary to them because they have poor coping mechanisms.

 

[Kal'Stang]

It's about a loss of privilege and control. For hundreds of years, the United States has catered to English speakers almost exclusively. Now, businesses and the government are catering to Spanish speakers as well and for (usually white) "native" Americans, this development threatens their privileged place in society. This is scary to them because they have poor coping mechanisms.

Do you have to turn everything into some comment about race?

 

[ThePlayDrive]

They need to assimilate to the culture if they plan to live here.

This is what I was talking about in my first post when I said that this English issue is a matter of control.

You're trying to retain control over a situation you have absolutely zero control over. You don't have the authority (legal or otherwise) to decide what "they" "need" to do. The fact is that many immigrants don't learn English and, if they do, they don't do it very well because, as Tucker stated, it's hard to learn a language as an adult. They also don't need to "assimilate" and many of them choose not to as they will continue to do. This is just the way it is. There is absolutely nothing that you or anyone else can do to change this. The healthiest way to deal with this reality is to follow the counsel of the Serenity Prayer and "accept the things [you] cannot change". Or you could just keep trying to control a situation you have no control over, but that sounds stressful.