Immigrants speaking English: Why do you care, anyway?

[Tucker Case]

Do you have to turn everything into some comment about race?

Since he's talking about privilege in the US, bringing up race is appropriate.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Do you have to turn everything into some comment about race?

I notice the racial implications of political issues and I like to talk about them. If you don't enjoy or find value in such comments, then you would probably be better off ignoring my comments because, at the end of day, I'm not going to stop talking about something that I enjoy talking about. :shrug:

 

[Kal'Stang]

Since he's talking about privilege in the US, bringing up race is appropriate.

The topic of the thread is about languages, not races. It is not appropriate at all since language is not based on race but on geographical cultures. Or do you believe that every country that has a Mandatory Language law written into their law books is based on race instead of what's convenient for their governments and people? The only reason to bring up race in this thread is to race bait pure and simple. It's stupid, ignorant and ****ed up to bring race into practically every freaking subject and shows imo a low mentality form of thinking.

And here we were having such a good conversation too. I'm outta here.

 

[tecoyah]

My wife deals with many people with many languages and tries to keep them alive. It becomes extremely difficult to explain things through an interpreter (if there even is one available) to do her job and help these people. Even worse would be the Middle Eastern men treating her (And any woman) like trash while she attempts to help them or their slave woman.
Learning basic English is one thing...assimilating to the culture is another. Both are required to become an accepted American. If these people cannot be bothered to embrace the place they decided to move to...I cannot be bothered to care about them at all.

 

[clownboy]

Well, you're wrong, it is a lot to ask any adult to learn a new language.

Then they do not belong any place other than where theirs is the native language. These are actual immigrants we're talking about here.

 

[Tucker Case]

The topic of the thread is about languages, not races.

That doesn't mean there isn't some overlap.

Let's face it, people tend to be more bothered by "Spanish" speakers than the idea that some Polish immigrant doesn't learn English. They are often more bothered by the Mexican illegal than they are to learn that my father was an illegal from Ireland. If that's not at least somewhat racially motivated, then what is it?

And let's go back to something Goshin was saying about similarities between people leading to more cooperative interactions. If we extrapolate that hypothesis out to its extremity, then we have to conclude that all similarities and differences would be factors, not merely linguistic variations. Perhaps the causal factor for a lowered intolerance for Polish immigrants refusing to learn English as compared to spanish-speaking immigrants doing so is that there are other similarities which make up for this dissimilarity. Perhaps my father is "less of a problem" being an illegal because he speaks English AND looks enough like the dominant culture so as to be considered "one of us" more easily than a Legal immigrant from Guatemala who doesn't speak English might be.

And who really cares if he brings race into it? You don't have to partake in that portion of the discussion. Why the **** are you pretending to be victimized by it? That's your issue. You need to get over your own racial hangups which lead to the mere mention of a potential racial correlation to incite such a strong emotional response from you that you decide to **** up the entire discussion by freaking out in response to it when you could have easily just ignored it. (If you had ignored it, we wouldn't even be discussing it, in fact. It was a total throwaway comment prior to your freak out).

Instead you bitched about it and then decided to end your discussions entirely. That tells me that you have some serious insecurities about race and racism.

 

[Redress]

Time for a video:



Somewhat relevant: the voice actress who voices Hagimura has a degree in language studies specializing in English...

 

[Gardener]

My attitude is that an immigrant who arrives in this country and struggles with English is just fine. Making some sort of effort is all that counts, and it can be very difficult to learn a new language as an adult.

As to the children of immigrants who are born in this country, there is simply no excuse for not being fluent in English. This indicates to me that the parents are not really interested in their becoming American.

 

[Tucker Case]

As to the children of immigrants who are born in this country, there is simply no excuse for not being fluent in English. This indicates to me that the parents are not really interested in their becoming American.

At what age should they have "fluency"? My wife didn't really speak English until she was about 4 or 5 years old and started school. Once she started school, she became fluent very quickly, but Italian was certainly her first language.

The delay wasn't because her parents had no interest in her learning it, it was simply because her mother was better able to communicate in Italian.

 

[chromium]

I guess my views are shaped a lot by my mom on this issue. She immigrated here legally, speaking only German, then made a point of learning English (by reading comic books, she tells me). It just makes since to me that if you relocate to another country, that's it's worthwhile to learn the native language. That hardly seems too much to ask to me or racist or whatever gets tossed out anytime immigration is brought up.

I do admit that I wish I were bilingual but I have zero aptitude for learning a second language (seriously, I have tried) so I have great respect for those who can and do.

A lot of immigrants have every intention of doing so, then they find it's beyond their abilities, or they get caught up in the grind of just trying to survive, or whatever.

You say yourself it's worthwhile, so they're mostly just harming themselves to not learn the native language. I also think it's an unfair expectation, since so many americans can barely speak english...

The one thing i'll complain of is that the sheer amount of immigrants, along with the lousy living wage job market, has created a situation where so many public sector jobs now *require* spanish speaking. Since their clients speak far more spanish than english, these jobs invariably go to the descendants of illegal immigrants, not the people who always lived here.

 

[QuadpolarNutjob]

because half of them are on welfare. send em back.

 

[spud_meister]

My wife deals with many people with many languages and tries to keep them alive. It becomes extremely difficult to explain things through an interpreter (if there even is one available) to do her job and help these people. Even worse would be the Middle Eastern men treating her (And any woman) like trash while she attempts to help them or their slave woman.
Learning basic English is one thing...assimilating to the culture is another. Both are required to become an accepted American. If these people cannot be bothered to embrace the place they decided to move to...I cannot be bothered to care about them at all.

If these Middle Eastern men moved to Utah, converted to Mormonism, and still had multiple wives and treated woman like crap, would that be ok because fundamental Mormonism is a US culture?

 

[tecoyah]

If these Middle Eastern men moved to Utah, converted to Mormonism, and still had multiple wives and treated woman like crap, would that be ok because fundamental Mormonism is a US culture?

NO...it would not! My commentary centered on the actual topic of language and also touched upon cultural problems. Why do you feel the need to bring religion into it?

 

[MisterLogical]

Well this is obvious and very simple

We can not understand them, why should we be made to cater to them when we were here first?
Its very frustrating trying to figure out what an Indian doctor with a heavy accent who is bad at English is saying when they are trying to give you your medical information
The people here who were bad at the language were forced to take classes to perfect the language(Like those with speech problems)
Its more trouble to get a translator when they dont want to learn English

Its fine to speak it to friends, in your own home, when your with family. The issue is when you are working or asking for stuff in another language from businesses.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

They need to assimilate to the culture if they plan to live here. DOUBLE that if they plan to become a citizen.

If I were going to move to France, the FIRST thing I'd do is start learning to speak French. After moving one of my biggest priorities would be to master the language and hopefully one day speak well enough to be mistaken for a native.

For those who wish to be citizens... how can a nation be 'one people' if half of them can't TALK to each other??

This. I just find it incredibly rude, honestly. I never even travelled through a country if I didn't have at least some basic phrases and numbers down -- and that was when I was only staying a short time. I would have been embarrassed walking into a country and not even being able to check myself into my hostel or get through a trip to the cafe, however minimally. Hell, I felt a little bad for how little German I knew when I stayed there a couple months, and I had a reasonably good grasp on the basics.

I'm not terribly good at learning languages. English has made a deep, stubborn groove in my brain because I've spent most of my life obsessing over it. Doesn't matter. Still rude. It only takes a few hours to learn bare-bones, get-by basics. Maybe a few weeks of serious practice to get decently quick at them. If I can do that in the interest of not humiliating myself as a tourist, why can't people do that in the interest of being able to interact with people in their new permanent home? Makes no sense to me. It's not even that hard to just learn enough to get by. It takes much longer than a couple weeks to get your docs in order to move. Why weren't you doing it then?

Why someone would move anywhere not speaking the language and expect people to find that acceptable is just beyond me. If you go the US not knowing English, your first action should be to learn so that you can actually be at home and be useful in the new country that has welcomed you in. They didn't have to, and taking that for granted strikes me as rather similar to wiping your shoes on the carpet of someone who's having you in their home. Sure, there are some very nice people who might not harangue you for it too much... but wouldn't you be embarrassed? Would you really be surprised if you applied for their open spot for a housemate and they turned you down after that?

It's just not something I'd ever do myself, and there are plenty of nationals even from fairly progressive countries that would be a little insulted if you moved to their home and didn't make any effort to speak their language. When you expatriate, you adapt to them, not the other way around. You left for a reason, right? Because you'd rather be in the new place your living, right? Exptriating is hard, so you really wanted it, right? So why wouldn't you make even a symbolic attempt to participate in it or get to know any of its people?

 

[spud_meister]

NO...it would not! My commentary centered on the actual topic of language and also touched upon cultural problems. Why do you feel the need to bring religion into it?

Because not all American cultural practices are good. I'm just wondering if you have a specific American culture in mind when you demand integration, or if any will do.

 

[tecoyah]

Because not all American cultural practices are good. I'm just wondering if you have a specific American culture in mind when you demand integration, or if any will do.

I believe it would be referred to as American Culture...which is a mixture of diverse peoples living in a democratic society where all men (and women) are equals. The ME mentality toward women is the exact opposite of this concept and must be abandoned if integration is possible.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Why someone would move anywhere not speaking the language and expect people to find that acceptable is just beyond me.

1. Because sometimes you have to get out of a country faster than you can learn the language.

2. Because you don't actually have to know English to survive in the United States, particularly given how segregated some areas of the country are.

3. Because plenty of Americans like me don't care if people learn the language or not.

Ultimately, the worst thing that will happen to a lot of immigrants to the United States who do not speak English is that other people, like you, will look down on them and they don't care.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

1. Because sometimes you have to get out of a country faster than you can learn the language.

2. Because you don't actually have to know English to survive in the United States, particularly given how segregated some areas of the country are.

3. Because plenty of Americans like me don't care if people learn the language or not.

Ultimately, the worst thing that will happen to a lot of immigrants to the United States who do not speak English is that other people, like you, will look down on them and they don't care.

Thus learn when you get there, if need be. Some people don't even do that.

I didn't need to know German to survive in Germany, especially not on the west side. But my god, how incredibly rude to take advantage of that. Go to someone else's country and then demand they talk how I want them to talk, and I'm not going to make any effort to communicate with them? I'd be too ashamed to ever go back again, and anyone even marginally thoughtful should be.

Most people here are at least that decent -- despite how many different languages there are goin' on here, I don't often run into immigrants in Europe who can't speak the dominant language of where they moved to with relatively good proficiency. I'd love to see someone try to show up in France and demand they speak English. Good luck with that! :lol:

I don't like rude people, and try not to be one myself. :shrug: Sorry if having manners and consideration is offensive to you.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Thus learn when you get there, if need be. Some people don't even do that.

I didn't need to know German to survive in Germany, especially not on the west side. But my god, how incredibly rude to take advantage of that. Go to someone else's country and then demand they talk how I want them to talk, and I'm not going to make any effort to communicate with them? I'd be too ashamed to ever go back again, and anyone even marginally thoughtful should be.

Most people here are at least that decent -- despite how many different languages there are goin' on here, I don't often run into immigrants in Europe who can't speak the dominant language of where they moved to with relatively good proficiency. I'd love to see someone try to show up in France and demand they speak English. Good luck with that! :lol:

I don't like rude people, and try not to be one myself. :shrug: Sorry if having manners and consideration is offensive to you.

1. It's not easy for everyone to learn a second language, particularly when you are older. And like I said, if you don't have to learn it, then there's not necessarily a reason to.

2. I don't think it's rude. Also, there are plenty of communities in the United States where languages other than English (e.g. German, Italian, Spanish) are the standard of communication so it's inaccurate for you to characterize non-English-speaking immigrants to the U.S. as disregarding American standards. What they are disregarding are the standards of the "ruling class", not American culture at large.

3. I've been to France and, while I spoke as much French as I could muster, people were incredibly nice about working through the communication barrier. I had several people, knowing/sensing that I was American, choose to come up to me and volunteer English to help me when I looked confused.

4. Like I said, I don't think it's rude so your negative perception of the people we're talking about is a decision you've made. In fact, I think it's a bit silly to get so worked about something that doesn't harm you. Ultimately, you're upset that people are doing something that harms themselves and has no effect on you other than the annoyance you allow to creep into your mind.

5. I never said that I was offended. I just communicated my perspective to you. You are actually the one who has gone on lengthy rants about why non-English-speaking immigrants to the U.S. a "rude" which means that you, not me, are offended. Projection?

 

[americanwoman]

As someone who translates a lot, I find it most frustrating when I have to do it when we have to go to a doctor or call for help, like the police. It's just frustrating because someone has to be there to translate, if they don't have a translator there how are they going to report what exactly the pain is or how someone just hit their car and left. Don't get me wrong, I really don't mind it at all and I do it to help but I feel helpless for them that if it's an emergency and there is no translator they are not getting anywhere and something bad could happen.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

1. It's not easy for everyone to learn a second language, particularly when you are older. And like I said, if you don't have to learn it, then there's not necessarily a reason to.

2. I don't think it's rude. Also, there are plenty of communities in the United States where languages other than English (e.g. German, Italian, Spanish) are the standard of communication so it's inaccurate for you to characterize non-English-speaking immigrants to the U.S. as disregarding American standards. What they are disregarding are the standards of the "ruling class", not American culture at large.

3. I've been to France and, while I spoke as much French as I could muster, people were incredibly nice about working through the communication barrier. I had several people, knowing/sensing that I was American, choose to come up to me and volunteer English to help me when I looked confused.

4. Like I said, I don't think it's rude so your negative perception of the people we're talking about is a decision you've made. In fact, I think it's a bit silly to get so worked about something that doesn't harm you. Ultimately, you're upset that people are doing something that harms themselves and has no effect on you other than the annoyance you allow to creep into your mind.

5. I never said that I was offended. I just communicated my perspective to you. You are actually the one who has gone on lengthy rants about why non-English-speaking immigrants to the U.S. a "rude" which means that you, not me, are offended. Projection?

There is no one of normal mental capacity who cannot learn the basics, and do so in a relatively short period of time. That's nonsense. Yes, older people too. I've watched them.

Of course... because you at least tried. See, this is what I mean. Had you walked up to French people and just started spitting English at them, I bet you'd have gotten a very different response. The response you got being minimally polite is not the same response people get when they're outrightly rude.

Well, good for you. Most people on earth seem to find it rude. This is traveler etiquette 101, and even you yourself seem to understand it, although you refuse to admit even your own behavior attempts to conform to it: when you go to someone else's house, you at least try to follow their rules.

It has nothing to do with the US specifically. I've been talking about manners on the road. If you're simply going to make up things I said inside your own head, then that has nothing to do with me.

It's not a perspective, what you have. It's a weirdly cobbled together party line position with probably as much thought behind it as what you're wearing today, which you oddly don't even seem to support in your personal life. This is just hacky nonsense.

 

[spud_meister]

I believe it would be referred to as American Culture...which is a mixture of diverse peoples living in a democratic society where all men (and women) are equals. The ME mentality toward women is the exact opposite of this concept and must be abandoned if integration is possible.

But that attitude to women is not unique, and can be found in varying levels throughout American culture.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

There is no one of normal mental capacity who cannot learn the basics, and do so in a relatively short period of time. That's nonsense. Yes, older people too. I've watched them.

Of course... because you at least tried. See, this is what I mean. Had you walked up to French people and just started spitting English at them, I bet you'd have gotten a very different response. The response you got being minimally polite is not the same response people get when they're outrightly rude.

Well, good for you. Most people on earth seem to find it rude. This is traveler etiquette 101, and even you yourself seem to understand it, although you refuse to admit even your own behavior attempts to conform to it: when you go to someone else's house, you at least try to follow their rules.

It has nothing to do with the US specifically. I've been talking about manners on the road. If you're simply going to make up things I said inside your own head, then that has nothing to do with me.

It's not a perspective, what you have. It's a weirdly cobbled together party line position with probably as much thought behind it as what you're wearing today, which you oddly don't even seem to support in your personal life. This is just hacky nonsense.

1. If you're just talking about the basics, then you're point is moot anyway because the vast majority, if not all, immigrants learn the basics either on purpose or by accident. Given that, I don't know what you're criticizing since the behavior you're calling rude doesn't seem to happen.

2. Again, if this is the sort of behavior you're talking about, then your point is moot. I was born and raised in the United States and I live in a diverse city and I have never seen or heard of a situation where a non-English-speaking immigrant went up to someone a just started "spitting" their native language at them. That just doesn't happen or at least it happens very, very rarely so again, not sure what you're criticizing since the things your talking about don't happen.

3. You've polled most people on Earth? Link? Also, you judge the strength of an argument by how popular it is? Not my choice, but whatever floats your boat.

4. I'm not sure what you think I'm making up, but we're in a thread about immigrants speaking English in the United States. Because this thread is about the US specifically, I wrote my comment about the US specifically. If my on topic comment had nothing to do with you, then you're off topic.

5. Well I'm sorry that you feel so strongly and negatively about my perspective on the matter. That's too bad.

 

[tecoyah]

But that attitude to women is not unique, and can be found in varying levels throughout American culture.

These "varying degrees" NEVER included slavery and sex toy status...and women now have reached a close equality to men. We certainly have a ways to go, but allowing Islam to bleed into what we have accomplished would reverse the progress completely and send this country backward in a very many ways.