When is Electricity Going to be an Issue?

[Tigger]

You mean they can selectively shut down certain areas/appliances in your house, or cut power to your house completely. Is this done through the smart meter?

Yes, they can and it will be done through the Smart-Meter. In some cases you'll get an opportunity to run the appliance at a significantly higher rate (say $0.24 per KwH instead of the $0.16 you normally pay).

yes it is really a great thing, power companies can manage load that way, I'd go for such a thing if the rate cut was substantial

There is no rate cut involved. If anything there will be another rate INCREASE.

 

[Fenton]

The ability to selctively disconnect items from the grid via smart meter isn't possible.

30 years elecrical and electronic background speaking here.

They CAN disconnect you remotely or increase your rates arbitrarily but not shut off certain items.

For that they would have to wire in a large control panel loaded with relays and contactors ( relays that can withstand high current ) that were accessable via the smart meter that lead to each outlet.

All they can do is lower your capacity, which would probably trip your AC unit breaker, and maybe your electric stove or maybe a electric dryer.

But doing that can cause conductors in your service panel, in your home and in your appliances to over heat.

 

[Tigger]

The ability to selctively disconnect items from the grid via smart meter isn't possible.

30 years elecrical and electronic background speaking here.

They CAN disconnect you remotely or increase your rates arbitrarily but not shut off certain items.

For that they would have to wire in a large control panel loaded with relays and contactors ( relays that can withstand high current ) that were accessable via the smart meter that lead to each outlet.

All they can do is lower your capacity, which would probably trip your AC unit breaker, and maybe your electric stove or maybe a electric dryer.

But doing that can cause conductors in your service panel, in your home and in your appliances to over heat.

Fenton, it's coming, trust me. The manufacturers like GE and Westinghouse are already developing plans for the relays and such necessary to have the grid work that way. The initial plan seems to be to rewrite the current electric code to allow individual circuits to be shut off. Down the road, as new SmartGrid appliances start showing up in homes, the code will be changed to require those as well.

 

[What if...?]

Micro-Generation? Please explain. Right now about the only major new electric production is natural gas co gen plants. They don't come anywhere near nuclear wish is getting snubbed despite advancements we invented and are used in France.

Its also called disteibuted generation.

The concept is that energy is generated wherever however it can be, on smaller scales. Which requires a smart grid.

Our current model is to provide power at maximum profit, NOT maximum efficiency. Its not about providing maximum energy for our society.

 

[Montecresto]

yes it is really a great thing, power companies can manage load that way, I'd go for such a thing if the rate cut was substantial

What do you mean you would go for the thing, the Smart-Meter? If so, don't worry, when it comes to your neighbourhood, you won't have to choose it, it won't be an option. You welcome the idea of the guy down at PG&E being able turn off your coffee pot?

 

[Montecresto]

I'm glad I live in a solar electric house!

 

[Tigger]

What do you mean you would go for the thing, the Smart-Meter? If so, don't worry, when it comes to your neighbourhood, you won't have to choose it, it won't be an option. You welcome the idea of the guy down at PG&E being able turn off your coffee pot?

Nope. It wouldn't be up to the dispatch centers to regulate that sort of thing. It would be programmed into the devices (reclosers, station breakers, meters. etc....) to do that sort of thing.

 

[grip]

The ability to selctively disconnect items from the grid via smart meter isn't possible.

30 years elecrical and electronic background speaking here.

They CAN disconnect you remotely or increase your rates arbitrarily but not shut off certain items.

For that they would have to wire in a large control panel loaded with relays and contactors ( relays that can withstand high current ) that were accessable via the smart meter that lead to each outlet.

All they can do is lower your capacity, which would probably trip your AC unit breaker, and maybe your electric stove or maybe a electric dryer.

But doing that can cause conductors in your service panel, in your home and in your appliances to over heat.

My power company just offered for me to enter such a program.

Guaranteed savings on your electric bill.
Lower your electric bill the easy way with FPL’s On Call program.
By enrolling in On Call, you agree to let FPL occasionally turn off
equipment you select, for short periods of time, only when absolutely
necessary. In return, you will receive a monthly credit on your bill
even if On Call is not activated. Historically, On Call has been activated
three to four times a year, during times of high electricity demand.
Savings and options you control.
With FPL’s On Call program, you choose the equipment and time
options you want to enroll in the program. Depending on the options
you choose, you can save as much as $137 per year.*
Qualifying equipment options:
» Central air conditioning (A/C)
» Central heating*
» Electric water heater
» Pool pump for in-ground pools

FPL adds a small control box to the homeowner’s appliance that can be run from a central location. The box allows them to shut off the power to that appliance for short periods of time during peak usage. They claim that the homeowner is unlikely to notice when it is being used since the time is relatively short.

 

[Fenton]

Fenton, it's coming, trust me. The
manufacturers like GE and
Westinghouse are already developing plans for the relays and such necessary to have the grid work that way. The initial plan seems to be to rewrite the current electric code to allow individual circuits to be shut off. Down the road, as new SmartGrid appliances start showing up in homes, the code will be changed to require those as well.

Oh I believe you. In Houston back in the Eighties the Utillity Company had a plan that would knock 20% off your utillity bill.

All you had to do was consent to allow them to install a device that could remotely cut your AC Unit off.

Well people who signed up for it quickly realized that H L And P ( the provider back then ) only cut power to your unit when load was high so in Houston that means the middle of the afternoon.

So I know it's coming or something comparable to that but was just saying through the current technology it's not possible.

The easy way to do this would to make every appliances WiFi compatibale and go from there. Any individual applaiances could be shut off remotelt and manipulation of the applaiances circuitry to by pass the internal relay OR any effort to block the signal would be against the law.

That way they don't have to make any changes to the meters, houses or grids.

I hope they do this....I'm going to have fun hacking their Circuit boards, by passing their internal disconnect and still make them think they have access to my property.

 

[Montecresto]

Nope. It wouldn't be up to the dispatch centers to regulate that sort of thing. It would be programmed into the devices (reclosers, station breakers, meters. etc....) to do that sort of thing.

Oh, I see.

 

[AngryOldGuy]

the Smart-Meter?

heck yeah I had the Salt River Project's M-Power for many years I loved it.
knowing your power consumption in real time is great and pay as you go hah they never can surprise you with a big fat bill. I did hate the fact that they rigged the thing to show consumption during the last half of the month to pay for the transmission costs. If you shut down everything (zero power draw) it still showed you were using power past the 15th of the month. It was supposed to amount to 13 ~ 16 bucks a month. Kinda like the basic service charge for having service connected.

you keep going off about this silly solar house, what was the initial investment cost, how do ya keep the lights (and computer) on at night? what is the realistic cost of operation? How many decades will it be before you reach break even? Inquiring minds wanna know?
Hah almost forgot what is the max kilowatt output of this silly setup? in my old home the A/C unit pulled 3.6 KW and the electric dryer 5.5
I could live like an Amish person and use a clothes line but in the desert it would be an impossible sell to the better half to do without Air Conditioning

 

[Montecresto]

Ok angry, I think your much too dismissive of solar to be deserving a conversation on it. And I'm not pushing it on anyone.

 

[ecofarm]

What about a progressive scale for electricity consumption. Should the electricity to modestly cool a family home cost the same per KwH as the excess used to for a mansion or to generate profit?

Ooooh, I feel like an evil little socialist just for bringing it up!

 

[Fenton]

What about a progressive scale for
electricity consumption. Should the electricity to modestly cool a family home cost the same per KwH as the excess used to for a mansion or to generate profit?

Ooooh, I feel like an evil little socialist just for bringing it up!

Lol !!

I would say not to give them any ideas but I'm sure they've already thought of it.

 

[AngryOldGuy]

It's all simple arithmetic, if paying more for the same amount of power just because it is solar generated is somehow better explain it to me.
If having to live under the restraints of not having virtually unlimited amounts of this higher cost power available whenever you want is somehow an advantage help me to see the light

It's simple physics. Simple arithmetic.
'bout as cool as driving a toyota prius?
(which is a way cool car by the way)

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

Unfortunately you're wrong. I say that as someone who works for an electric utility company, and has an understanding of how this is intended to work. YES, the company WILL have the ability to shut you off at any time when your usage exceeds availability, or to charge you considerably (up to 50% from what I hear) more for your electric consumption during that time period. Everything from shutting down your coffee maker and dryer to shutting the entire home off in one fell swoop. The project is largely about punishing people for not being "green" enough with their energy usage.

The first words of my post were, "Smart metering doesn't mean that the government gets to decide."

 

[Fenton]

It's all simple arithmetic, if paying more
for the same amount of power just because it is solar generated is somehow better explain it to me.
If having to live under the restraints of not having virtually unlimited amounts of this higher cost power available whenever you want is somehow an advantage help me to see the light

It's simple physics. Simple arithmetic.
'bout as cool as driving a toyota prius?
(which is a way cool car by the way)

I hate those cars.

A ridiculous knee jerk to a manufactured narrative, " global warming ".

There is nothing "renewable" or green about a Toyota Prius as their batteries are highly eco destructive both to manufacture and to dispose of.

 

[AngryOldGuy]

I drove one for over 3,000 miles
they are fun and have many useful features but...
just like solar energy, neither make economic sense.

 

[Montecresto]

I hate those cars.

A ridiculous knee jerk to a manufactured narrative, " global warming ".

There is nothing "renewable" or green about a Toyota Prius as their batteries are highly eco destructive both to manufacture and to dispose of.

That's why they make chocolate and vanilla, I love that 52mpg. And as Angry said, its fun to drive.

 

[Fenton]

That's why they make chocolate and
vanilla, I love that 52mpg. And as Angry said, its fun to drive.

If gas mileage like that couldn't be produced any other way then I would say you have a point.

But there are small diesel powered cars thzt have comparable abillities and thats with out the battery pack.

 

[Montecresto]

If gas mileage like that couldn't be produced any other way then I would say you have a point.

But there are small diesel powered cars thzt have comparable abillities and thats with out the battery pack.

I support any car that gets 52 mpg.

 

[Tigger]

I hope they do this....I'm going to have fun hacking their Circuit boards, by passing their internal disconnect and still make them think they have access to my property.

All I will say is this - be careful. There are some pretty powerful people at the State and Federal level pushing this thing and somehow I get the feeling that bypassing or defeating the internal mechanisms is going to carry a rather stiff penalty if one is caught.

 

[AngryOldGuy]

oh YES one really fun thing is to play with the energy recovery system and drive like a hyper-miler
I'd find myself tailoring my driving style to maximize the battery charge level. sad thing is the 50 miles per gallon
is what every car should be getting these days. One thing that was the MOST awesomest thing of all was the fact that
the A/C unit in the Prius is electric. If you make a point to recover the energy from braking, then save it while driving, when you park you can sit in splendid cool comfort parked without the petrol engine running in the 110F degree Arizona summers day. hah and developing a driving style that maximizes the regen braking is something all drivers should learn. You'd replace your brake 3 time less frequently then.

but and it's a big butt
the increased initial purchase price
the extra stuff batteries electric motor funky transmission ECU and more
and the fact that the batteries wear down over time and replacing them hah yeah right

the dollars you shuck out up front take years and years to recoup in savings through better gas mileage
and yeah the new eco-boost turbos will provide comparable mileage figgers and are ten times more fun to drive.

Only thing I CAN say 'bout the Prius, it was the first commercially successful hybrid that's gotta count fer sumthin' eh?

 

[Tigger]

The first words of my post were, "Smart metering doesn't mean that the government gets to decide."

It's not actually the Government either. It's the Utility Company, through the equations they use to determine loads, and the new smart reclosers and meters. Literally this new system is designed to be able to figure out, within a few watts, exactly how much electricity is being used in any home, and from there to manipulate the system to bring about the load balancing and reduction scenarios they prefer. Up to and including blacking out areas if "necesary" to provide for other areas.

 

[AngryOldGuy]

I'm all for active load balancing, you don't have to go and study how the power grid works to getta grasp on how this is the right way to do it.
Now as for the folks that squawk over having limited power availability it's easy as pie. You wanna burn up a buncha power during the peak load period? Then it's gonna cost ya! Pay to play baby, pay to play. I know more people than not who are flush enough (or are not good at being stingy bastards like me) that couldn't care less if blasting the A/C running the washer n clothes dryer, leaving all sorts of stuff needlessly turned on during a peak load time of day (they haven't a clue what that is) cuz paying a lil extra doesn't matter to them.

"When my ugly big car won't climb this hill
I'll write a suicide note on a hundred dollar bill
'cos if you wanna run cool
you got to run on heavy, Heavy Fuel"