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UK PM: Multiculturalism has failed

Grant

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Agreed, however the methods by which a leader (benevolent dictator or democratically elected leader) enforces a policy or drags his or her country up with can tell you a little. I still read that Singapore still allows military disciplinary enforcement through caning and whipping any guilty party. Kuan Lee (if I recall correctly) was instrumental in bringing about such a policy. Caning is still used in judicial punishment and an American citizen brought it on himself not too many years ago.

Such support would not be found by the aforementioned posters for public whipping and or such public punishments if they are brought by a muslim leader. In fact I remember RoP posting a video of caning in Sudan that brought outrage around the world.

So if someone quotes Lee that means they are in favour of public caning?

Thats quite a leap!
 

Infinite Chaos

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If anyone is interested in adult discussion of the Cameron speech - tonight's "Question Time" on BBC 1 featured Francis Maude, Douglas Murray, Menzies Campbell, Jaquie Smith and the current editor of the Spectator whose name escapes me.

One thing made me laugh - everytime Murray was shown up, he petulantey talked about -- "this always happens when "the left"" etc etc. He's obviously spent a lot of time in certain circles with self congratulatory snide thinkers.

If you can't see the iPlayer footage yet - Jaquie Smith made one salient point that most people agreed what Cameron was trying to articulate however the spin put on it by (those like Nick Griffin, Jean marie le Pen's daughter and Douglas Murray) took away from serious discussion. The spectator editor raised another interesting point that Cameron wrote 4 years ago in the observer that in our tolerant society we should not be considering enforcing one view of "Britishness" onto all.

Everyone except Murray seemed to agree that Cameron's speech should have equally exhorted those that follow the likes of the English Defence League to be subjected to "muscular liberalism"- which is what most Brits would agree. It's not just the radical muslim extremists we should worry about but the radical extremist right wing looking for a fist-fight on our streets.

Watch and make your own mind up.
 

Infinite Chaos

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So if someone quotes Lee that means they are in favour of public caning?

Thats quite a leap!

Try reading it again, if you don't get it - I'll explain it tomorrow morning.
 

Republic_Of_Public

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On the subject of radical extremists (and I'll watch QT in the morning), I suppose this young lad looks on the bright side of MultiCulturalism:

32_bomber_costume.jpg


Taken to extremes, MultiCulti can reflect anything.
 

Grant

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If anyone is interested in adult discussion of the Cameron speech - tonight's "Question Time" on BBC 1 featured Francis Maude, Douglas Murray, Menzies Campbell, Jaquie Smith and the current editor of the Spectator whose name escapes me.

One thing made me laugh - everytime Murray was shown up, he petulantey talked about -- "this always happens when "the left"" etc etc. He's obviously spent a lot of time in certain circles with self congratulatory snide thinkers.

If you can't see the iPlayer footage yet - Jaquie Smith made one salient point that most people agreed what Cameron was trying to articulate however the spin put on it by (those like Nick Griffin, Jean marie le Pen's daughter and Douglas Murray) took away from serious discussion. The spectator editor raised another interesting point that Cameron wrote 4 years ago in the observer that in our tolerant society we should not be considering enforcing one view of "Britishness" onto all.

Everyone except Murray seemed to agree that Cameron's speech should have equally exhorted those that follow the likes of the English Defence League to be subjected to "muscular liberalism"- which is what most Brits would agree. It's not just the radical muslim extremists we should worry about but the radical extremist right wing looking for a fist-fight on our streets.

Watch and make your own mind up.

So its agreed that there is no "Britishness" anymore, which is a point many of us have raised before.

Perhaps if the there were no problems with Muslims there would be no need for an EDL. Did any of the panelists consider this?

Cameron was getting to the heart of the problem.

(That link is not available in Canada)
 

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Sharia Law?

Shari’ah, rather than being ‘law’ in the sense of rules enforced by a state, has traditionally been understood by Muslims as a broad and diverse set of scholarly opinions that can be observed or disregarded according to personal preference. Indeed, in Arabic, the word shari’ah is always used as a noun, never as an adjective to describe ‘law’. Islamists, on the other hand, believe that shari’ah is a single, universally-agreed upon code which can and should be directly enforced as state law (although, ironically, they even disagree among themselves about what that code would look like).

Quilliam releases
 

alexa

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It does seem Canadian Muslims, on the whole, are more settled in Canada

"In general terms, the poll found that 73 per cent of Canadian Muslims describe themselves as "very proud" to be called Canadians, even if many of them see their religion as coming first in certain instances"

But that does not disguise the fact,

"A majority of the Muslim respondents (53 per cent) would also like to see Islamic Sharia law adopted for divorce and other family disputes, and a much larger number, 86 per cent, of Canadian Muslims do not feel governments should ban the wearing of headscarves by Muslim women in public, including public schools."

CBC News - Canada - Glad to be Canadian, Muslims say

Out of interest are Canadian Muslims concentrated in the same areas?

I wouldn't be too sure that Canadian Muslims were more integrated than our own. Our Muslims are apparently the most integrated in Europe. On one poll I found 84% feeling British but could not find it tonight. However from the mail

Leicester - 82.4%

London - 72.0 %

Amsterdam - 59.0 %

Marseilles - 58.0%

Antwerp - 55.1%

Paris - 41.0%

Stockholm - 41.0%

Copenhagen - 39.6%

Berlin - 25.0%

Hamburg - 22.0%

Read more: British Muslims are the 'most patriotic and best integrated' in Europe | Mail Online

add to that that in some areas we have almost 50% taking on the identity of that area and I think we are not doing that badly in comparison to others - that is certainly something Canada cannot boast.

Also and this is nothing to do with what you said but it might be of interest that MBig and Gardiner's Guru believes that there is more Islamic terrorism in the US than Europe

Which Has More Islamist Terrorism, Europe or America? :: Daniel Pipes
 
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Infinite Chaos

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So its agreed that there is no "Britishness" anymore, which is a point many of us have raised before.

You have a special kind of logic you know, I marvel at how someone can write one thing and an entirely different meaning or spin is put on it.

Perhaps if the there were no problems with Muslims there would be no need for an EDL. Did any of the panelists consider this? --

On a more serious note, as I have pointed out before-the EDL has begun to attract street fighters like football hooligans, extreme right racist groups like combat 18 and blood and honour. That type of group has existed as long as immigrants with different colour skin have been coming here. We even had the Blackshirts in the 30's protesting against the jews and wanting us to side with Hitler.

I won't even bother asking if you've considered that as it clearly goes against your agenda.
 

alexa

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Not everything in life is a personal attack. Though such a 'liberal' standpoint fuels the mania to look for racism in even the shadows and coincidences.

I returned like with like
You seem to confuse a monocultural society with some kind of Orwellian thing under which everyone thinks and does the same. Of course people are different anyway, as noticed more starkly when looking at how the counties were when they were more individualistic.

Then you need to describe in more detail than your upset at the loss of 'Empire' what you believe 'British culture' is or to be more exact what you believe 'English' culture is. No one is or would be denying such thing as freedoms but those things should be adequately addressed by our laws.

However, as a greater mass people would consider themselves nationals if they were allowed free vent to it.

that is doubtful. We have good education in this country now.

Indeed, it took long enough for St. George's Day to be again celebrated as overtly as St. Patrick's. And it is more than being about football and liberals whining about the British Empire (hence the itallic reference). Shared ideals at grassroots level, such as the original ideals of having a fair crack of the whip, a safe place to live, helping people in the street and a general sense of decency and will for freedom.

English people are feeling pissed off at the feeling of community people feel in Scotland and Wales. That is all. There never was an 'English' Culture. As far down as Northumberland was at one time Scotland. The North of England has as much angst with London as Scotland. England has great culture and community but it is in smaller units. That is the real history and reality.

What's more, reverting to a monocultural society would not mean kicking anybody out. Back in the pre-MultiCulti days, Jews and Sikhs here still had their temples. But foreign cultures weren't state-sanctioned rivals to the indigenous one and newcomers had the firm idea that it was the new world they were entering.

Pre multi cultural days means going back to the 16th Centrury. Before that Jews were kicked out and I am not sure that Sikhs got in.
state-sanctioned rivals to the indigenous one and newcomers
Never been except in your imagination. Everyone is and always has been subject to the same British law.
 
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Temporal

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It's got nothing to do with age-old Leftist fantasies about one set of people keeping another lot down. Since Marx fashioned that kind of scapegoat rubbish into the dogma which led to the gulag, other factors are there to be noticed. Indeed, as during the slave trade Temporal seems to lightly compare this to, whites can feel as disenfranchised and exploited as any ethnic.

You are a fool if you think multiculturalism started with Marx, and you're a bigger fool if you think it's only tied to modern liberalism. There are multicultural centres all over the world that have been successful, thriving civilizations for hundreds if not thousands of years. Rio di Jinero, Jakarta, any major city in India, etc. The history of the world is the history of multiculturalism.

What we're talking about now is multicultural policy and governance. The reality is that the government policy of the past 100 years in North America and Europe has allowed for the swift building of cities and infrastructure using immigrant labour while maintaining the status and power of the privileged and dominant ethnic classes. That's just how we decided that our style of doing it would be. It hasn't been that way forever and it's not totally that way now, but for a period that is definitely how we have done things.

Maybe you have grown up being told that white people are trash and overlords or something. I'm not really into the PC non-sense, just hard facts and history. You can't ignore the history of the modern west and how it was built. It was basically built with slavery, indentured servitude, and more recently cheap immigrant labour. This is fact.

Not sure what else I can say to you. If you believe I'm wrong then oh well, sad for you. I think maybe some knowledge would ease your obvious anger and hate. It's not good to hold onto those emotions for the long-term. It changes nothing and only hurts yourself.
 
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Republic_Of_Public

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Then you need to describe in more detail than your upset at the loss of 'Empire'...

I'm not. I only mentioned 'Ooo the British Empire' in relation to the increased badmouthing and denigration of our own history and culture.


There never was an 'English' Culture.

See. You wouldn't say that to a foreigner. Indeed you haven't to my knowledge.



We have good education in this country now.

Rubbish. Employers are always moaning about youngsters who can't even write or add up.

Dumbing down of exams leaves students ‘unable to deal with real problems’ - Times Online



Pre multi cultural days means going back to the 16th Centrury (sic).

No it doesn't. Even as late as the Empire Windrush's docking, the People of Britain knew the Christian-rooted values that Britain represented (or was supposed to) and had fought for during the war.



Never been except in your imagination.

Tell that to people who, say, have been told to remove England flags in case people of alien culture find them 'offensive'. And the Law may be one thing, telling people that Britain has no culture (and thus its own worth) in order to dilute what was already here is criminal.

St Albans Lib Dem candidate under fire for race remarks (From St Albans & Harpenden Review)
 

Republic_Of_Public

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If you believe I'm wrong then oh well, sad for you. I think maybe some knowledge would ease your obvious anger and hate. It's not good to hold onto those emotions for the long-term. It changes nothing and only hurts yourself.

You may or may not believe in PC yet you certainly talk like a devotee. Especially as you go on about 'ethnic dominant classes' again. (However, you can have the opportunity here and now to whine about the dominant black ethnic class in South Africa or Zimbabwe, just to get the balance.)


And if 'the world is a history of multiculturalism', then there was no such thing as an Indian, Brazilian, Chinese, Japanese, French or Mongolian culture as Alexa tells us there was no English.
 

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You cannot post a single honest thought?

Thanks for bottoming out the point Gardener. So, to put closure to your assertion you have failed to demonstrate any evidence substantiating your claims. I see a pattern developing and its all getting rather boring.

Paul
 

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The majority of Muslims in Canada tend to be centered around Montreal and Toronto though of course all major cities have at least one Mosque. There have been problems with Muslims in Calgary where a few years ago Muslims were attacking and debasing Synagogues, challenging any Islamic criticism through the Canadian Human Rights Commission, etc. but it seems that in recent months they have settled down a lot. Canadians, especially in Quebec. have discarded much of the PC and ignored charges of "Islamophobia" and are quite prepared now to speak out against Muslim aggressiveness in whatever form that takes. It seems to me that this no nonsense approach has met with favour from the larger Muslim community as well.

Sharia law was attempted in Ontario but following complaints by a great many Muslim women, who complained that they wanted to live in a free country and not be subject to Sharia, the provincial government eventually dropped the experiment. I don't think there is any serious threat of its return, unless it is underground.

I think the main reason why most Muslims are proud to be Canadian is that we have moved away, though not officially perhaps, from the multicultural movement. It is important that a country stands for something and all Canadians are feeling that pride now, even if it comes from something like a successful Olympic games. It reflected well on the country and Muslims were able, and rightly so, to reflect in that glow. It's a lot of little things that, when collected together, make it all come together.

Another factor is that the economy is doing very well when compared to other areas of the world and we tend to be easy to get along with. We still smile and nod when passing each other on the street and it doesn't matter who the recipient of that smile might be. A stronger cultural sense of what's right and wrong has also developed and that's something that is universal, and not restricted to one people or religion.

Of course there are exceptions and it is not all completely rosy but, in general terms, Canada, and the States as well, appear to be doing okay in the assimilation process. I think we still expect terrorist problems but are it seems the broader Islamic Community has been helpful in that regard also.

These are my impressions anyway..

Thanks for that. I will have a look at Canadian Muslim integration when i have more time. I have relatives in Vancouver, Coquitlam [spelling] spent six weeks there when i was 15 and enjoyed it very much.

Paul
 

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Thanks for that. I will have a look at Canadian Muslim integration when i have more time. I have relatives in Vancouver, Coquitlam [spelling] spent six weeks there when i was 15 and enjoyed it very much.

Paul

and I spent 7 months living in Canada when I wa 25. Grant represents a far right dimension of Canada which has for some reason gained a hold of a country previously any person would be proud of. You will find an alignment Paul if you are also at base far right.
 

Gardener

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Thanks for bottoming out the point Gardener. So, to put closure to your assertion you have failed to demonstrate any evidence substantiating your claims. I see a pattern developing and its all getting rather boring.

Paul

I refused your dishonest demands that I substantiate something I did not say.

You are too much the inveterate liar to be worth anybody's time.
 

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But maybe I am wrong. I hitched a ride for thousands of miles with the Canadian military. Because I had previously been in countries where people had to be part of the military whether they liked it or not due to compulsory service, I had gained an openness to people in the military. However when I spoke my condolences to the Canadians they responded that if they could get their guns on a 'frog' at the Montreal Olympics then they would be very happy to have a chance to kill him or her. Their military were wanting to kill quite unlike how I had changed my mind. They scared the **** out of me.
 

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and I spent 7 months living in Canada when I wa 25. Grant represents a far right dimension of Canada which has for some reason gained a hold of a country previously any person would be proud of. You will find an alignment Paul if you are also at base far right.

What the hell is that referring too?

Paul
 

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What the hell is that referring too?

Paul

I suggest you take what the whole post and not play games otherwise despite my difference in stance to Gardsiner I will have to acknowledged he is more honest.
 
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Republic_Of_Public

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Another way to ask the OP question is how has Multi Culturalism made our essential lives better in a way monoculturalism failed?

Has MultiCulti secured our jobs better, made job supply more plentiful or increased our chances of getting a good one?

Has it led to a higher standard of living, made the food cheaper (in value terms) or given you a bigger range of things to do or buy in town on a Saturday?

Has it made the beer better, police more effective or the Government more responsive to our needs?
 

Gardener

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I suggest you take what I SAID IN IT;S ENTIRITY AND ANSWER IT IN IT;S ENTIRITY. O THER WISE WITH ME YOU NLOSE ALL CREDIBILITY.

If this is how your post looks AFTER you have edited it, I wonder how it must have looked before.
 

gunner

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I suggest you take what the whole post and not play games otherwise despite my difference in stance to Gardsiner I will have to acknowledged he is more honest.

Crack on. I'm sure he will welcome the support:2wave:

There beat you to it. I wonder what it did look like....

Paul
 
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Republic_Of_Public

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I do wish people would be a lot calmer on DP. This is only supposed to be the fun of the fair after all.

Though if Multi Culturalism only seems to equate letting a hard crust of militants (from whatever minority) demand this or that cultural conecession to appease their wrath then it doesn't seem up to much. Everyone else, of whatever creed or colour, was always happy just to live here and get on with it as long as things were fair.

Indeed, there's a difference between a curry shop and shoehorning sharia law into our system.
 
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