UK PM: Multiculturalism has failed

[gunner]

That's quite the dishonest sleight of hand to claim another person said support when they quite clearly indicated it was the failure to acknowledge the extent of the beliefs in question that was at he heart of the problem.


In a previous discussion, you went so far as to mention the distinction between Muslims and Islamists, but when I pointed you to polls indicating the extent of Islamist beliefs, you tried with all your might to move the bar by establishing it at a place where only those actively engaging in murder could possibly qualify. Such dishonesty is indicative of the mindset I am addressing here.

So you cant point to a single post?

Paul

 

[Grant]

Gardener you need pinning on some important points. Can you please point out one post, in any thread, where their has been a single British poster agreeing with

A - honour killings

B - female genital mutilation

C - death of apostates

D - death of homosexuals

Not some misinterpretation on your part actual posts that state the above.

As an example from a so called 'left wing' news source you deplore

British girls undergo horror of genital mutilation despite tough laws | Society | The Observer

So other than those who carry out this barbaric act, who are its supporters?

Paul

Anyone suspected of allowing these operations should be stopped at customs, the girl examined and, if such an operation has taken place, the father jailed for three years and then deported.

Handwringing alone will not change the situation. This is just another example of anything goes multiculturalism and people, usually young girls and women, will continue to suffer as a result.

 

[Grant]

Of course Europe might wind up being multicultural, until one culture dominates the other anyway, whether they want it that way or not,

Here are a couple of recent events and comments.

Fortress Europe: Greece bids to stem migrant surge from Turkey with guns, wire and a 'wall' | World news | The Observer

SteynOnline - "FORTRESS EUROPE"?

 

[gunner]

Whenever Muslims create problems in the US or Canada we certainly don't blame ourselves for it, nor the "Neo-Cons", but that seems to be the trend in Europe. It's everyone's fault but the perpetrators.

It does seem Canadian Muslims, on the whole, are more settled in Canada

"In general terms, the poll found that 73 per cent of Canadian Muslims describe themselves as "very proud" to be called Canadians, even if many of them see their religion as coming first in certain instances"

But that does not disguise the fact,

"A majority of the Muslim respondents (53 per cent) would also like to see Islamic Sharia law adopted for divorce and other family disputes, and a much larger number, 86 per cent, of Canadian Muslims do not feel governments should ban the wearing of headscarves by Muslim women in public, including public schools."

CBC News - Canada - Glad to be Canadian, Muslims say

Out of interest are Canadian Muslims concentrated in the same areas?

 

[Andalublue]

No, it's the nature of your fallacious and now pure-bait/childish posting.

Your tactics are beneath contempt and your posts utterly empty .. at best.

Your bullying and hectoring style of posting is becoming very tedious. I've told you why I don't think Lee Kwan Yew should be listened to for advice on creating a better society, just as I told you why I don't have a lot of time for the unhinged ramblings of Oriana Falacci. If you can't debate the points in a civil matter then I suggest you place me on your 'ignore' list. Much better that for both of us than more of your shrill tirades.

 

[Andalublue]

In the interests of accuracy, can we enquire of all participants in this thread, how much time they have spent living and working in the UK a) in their life, and b) in the past 5 years. I think if you are going to debate the current state of the UK's multicultural society, you ought to be able to show that you have some direct experience of the country and understanding of that country's culture. A lack of experience doesn't disqualify you from debating, of course, but knowing how much experience you have lets everyone make up their own mind as to how much weight to give your statements.

I'll begin. I am 48 years old, have lived in the UK for 41 of those years. I don't currently live there but spent between 2 and 3 months a year there.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

The incredible hypocrisy the vast majority of brits show when it comes to their ridiculous double standards --

Are we talking about Brits on this forum or Brits in the UK? If we're talking about Brits on the forum - gunner's already waiting for substantiation of your claim, if you're talking about society at large then surely you'll have documentary proof somewhere?

In the interests of accuracy, can we enquire of all participants in this thread, how much time they have spent living and working in the UK a) in their life, and b) in the past 5 years. I think if you are going to debate the current state of the UK's multicultural society, you ought to be able to show that you have some direct experience of the country --

Forget that Andalublue, we're dealing with poster who (for example) mentioned the word "Nigeria" in a post 8 years ago on a forum which gave them credibility in their own mind that they could pass off one year's knowledge of events in Nigeria as insightful. I was even challenged to provide my own proof of having lived there - as if posting the pics of my two half Nigerian kids would prove anything.

Those posters aren't to be taken seriously.

 

[Grant]

It does seem Canadian Muslims, on the whole, are more settled in Canada

"In general terms, the poll found that 73 per cent of Canadian Muslims describe themselves as "very proud" to be called Canadians, even if many of them see their religion as coming first in certain instances"

But that does not disguise the fact,

"A majority of the Muslim respondents (53 per cent) would also like to see Islamic Sharia law adopted for divorce and other family disputes, and a much larger number, 86 per cent, of Canadian Muslims do not feel governments should ban the wearing of headscarves by Muslim women in public, including public schools."

CBC News - Canada - Glad to be Canadian, Muslims say

Out of interest are Canadian Muslims concentrated in the same areas?

The majority of Muslims in Canada tend to be centered around Montreal and Toronto though of course all major cities have at least one Mosque. There have been problems with Muslims in Calgary where a few years ago Muslims were attacking and debasing Synagogues, challenging any Islamic criticism through the Canadian Human Rights Commission, etc. but it seems that in recent months they have settled down a lot. Canadians, especially in Quebec. have discarded much of the PC and ignored charges of "Islamophobia" and are quite prepared now to speak out against Muslim aggressiveness in whatever form that takes. It seems to me that this no nonsense approach has met with favour from the larger Muslim community as well.

Sharia law was attempted in Ontario but following complaints by a great many Muslim women, who complained that they wanted to live in a free country and not be subject to Sharia, the provincial government eventually dropped the experiment. I don't think there is any serious threat of its return, unless it is underground.

I think the main reason why most Muslims are proud to be Canadian is that we have moved away, though not officially perhaps, from the multicultural movement. It is important that a country stands for something and all Canadians are feeling that pride now, even if it comes from something like a successful Olympic games. It reflected well on the country and Muslims were able, and rightly so, to reflect in that glow. It's a lot of little things that, when collected together, make it all come together.

Another factor is that the economy is doing very well when compared to other areas of the world and we tend to be easy to get along with. We still smile and nod when passing each other on the street and it doesn't matter who the recipient of that smile might be. A stronger cultural sense of what's right and wrong has also developed and that's something that is universal, and not restricted to one people or religion.

Of course there are exceptions and it is not all completely rosy but, in general terms, Canada, and the States as well, appear to be doing okay in the assimilation process. I think we still expect terrorist problems but are it seems the broader Islamic Community has been helpful in that regard also.

These are my impressions anyway..

 

[Grant]

I've told you why I don't think Lee Kwan Yew should be listened to for advice on creating a better society

Despite him actually having the experience in creating a better society??

It would seem logical that the man's opinion should be taken seriously.

 

[mbig]

Your bullying and hectoring style of posting is becoming very tedious. I've told you why I don't think Lee Kwan Yew should be listened to for advice on creating a better society, just as I told you why I don't have a lot of time for the unhinged ramblings of Oriana Falacci. If you can't debate the points in a civil matter then I suggest you place me on your 'ignore' list. Much better that for both of us than more of your shrill tirades.

Again, "my hectoring" combative posts are only in Response to your continued Fallacious Baiting.
Mr Lee's comments stand Untouched as to substance, only your continued illogical ad hom.

ergo, I suggest the reverse if you seek remedy/a pass for your baiting/empty posts.
I will never restrict myself from holding your BS up to the light of day. (see below for more)

And check out andalublu's new [equally fallacious] self-serving Standard for who can post in this string!

In the interests of accuracy, can we enquire of all participants in this thread, how much time they have spent living and working in the UK a) in their life, and b) in the past 5 years. I think if you are going to debate the current state of the UK's multicultural society, you ought to be able to show that you have some direct experience of the country and understanding of that country's culture. A lack of experience doesn't disqualify you from debating, of course, but knowing how much experience you have lets everyone make up their own mind as to how much weight to give your statements.

I'll begin. I am 48 years old, have lived in the UK for 41 of those years. I don't currently live there but spent between 2 and 3 months a year there.

And ergo I cannot post Mr Lee's similar (to Mr Cameron's) comments about Muslim integration problems in his country. Or they have no/less weight from a non-EU resident.

Yes, we've got it now, andalublu's new Apartheid standard for who posts/counts in the string, and even/why not, section!
A contest he now profers, Not of ideas, but over who lived where longest.

It's such a desperate self-serving effort to win by eliminating others opinion, it's comical. But typically devious.

 

[William Rea]

In the interests of accuracy, can we enquire of all participants in this thread, how much time they have spent living and working in the UK a) in their life, and b) in the past 5 years. I think if you are going to debate the current state of the UK's multicultural society, you ought to be able to show that you have some direct experience of the country and understanding of that country's culture. A lack of experience doesn't disqualify you from debating, of course, but knowing how much experience you have lets everyone make up their own mind as to how much weight to give your statements.

I'll begin. I am 48 years old, have lived in the UK for 41 of those years. I don't currently live there but spent between 2 and 3 months a year there.

All my life. I haven't felt the desire to live and work anywhere else.

Methinks that there are people who are becoming agitated that I am not buying into their anti-Muslim dogma.

 

[Andalublue]

And check out andalublu's new [equally fallacious] self-serving Standard for who can post in this string!

And ergo I cannot post Mr Lee's similar (to Mr Cameron's) comments about Muslim integration problems in his country. Or they have no/less weight from a non-EU resident.

You have trouble with reading comprehension. In what way does this say that anyone may not post?

Me: A lack of experience doesn't disqualify you from debating, of course, but knowing how much experience you have lets everyone make up their own mind as to how much weight to give your statements.

Yes, we've got it now, andalublu's new Apartheid standard for who posts/counts in the string, and even/why not, section!
A contest he now profers, Not of ideas, but over who lived where longest.

No, just a test of whether you know anything about the subject you presume to pontificate about. I'm guessing you haven't spent much time in the UK.

 

[Albert Di Salvo]

Merkel and Cameron have opened the gates to an attack on the practical reality of multiculturalism. This is how American conservatives are currently thinking about the subject:

Douglas Murray: Cameron's Multicultural Wake-Up Call - WSJ.com

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Despite him actually having the experience in creating a better society??

It would seem logical that the man's opinion should be taken seriously.

Nobody is doubting turning Singapore into the nation it is - it is the inherent lack of freedoms that his citizens have that makes his views on better society less valid. Whether he was essentially a benevolent dictator - a dictator is still a dictator.

 

[Grant]

Merkel and Cameron have opened the gates to an attack on the practical reality of multiculturalism. This is how American conservatives are currently thinking about the subject:

Douglas Murray: Cameron's Multicultural Wake-Up Call - WSJ.com

Something similar is quietly happening in Canada.

Speaking hard truths about multiculturalism

 

[Grant]

Nobody is doubting turning Singapore into the nation it is - it is the inherent lack of freedoms that his citizens have that makes his views on better society less valid. Whether he was essentially a benevolent dictator - a dictator is still a dictator.

So, despite the positive effects of his efforts, which were deeply appreciated by the people of Singapore, it's who he is, rather than what he says, that is important to you?

I don't think you recall what Asia was like during his time, with Communist dictators everywhere, pressure from China, etc. This man made a miracle happen in one of the toughest places anywhere. And when someone with his courage and experience speaks, I tend to listen.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

-- And when someone with his courage and experience speaks, I tend to listen.

Do you extend the same to other dictators too? Benevolent or otherwise?

Chinese leaders have dragged China from impoverished 3rd world country that received a large amount of UK aid into 2nd most powerful economy in the world in less time than Lee Kwan Yeu had with Singapore. Do you extend the same honour to them?

 

[Andalublue]

Do you extend the same to other dictators too? Benevolent or otherwise?

Chinese leaders have dragged China from impoverished 3rd world country that received a large amount of UK aid into 2nd most powerful economy in the world in less time than Lee Kwan Yeu had with Singapore. Do you extend the same honour to them?

I think you have to assess these things on a case-by-case basis. There are democratically-elected leaders whose opinion on multiculturalism or community relations I wouldn't give a stuff. Would I take lessons from Berlusconi? From Viktor Urban in Hungary? From José María Aznar? ¡Qué va! I would not. I suspect that mbig and friends would not give the opinion of Hugo Chavez (with better democratic credentials than Lee Kwan Yew, btw) very much credence. You pays your bribe, you takes your chance! :mrgreen:

 

[gunner]

I think you have to assess these things on a case-by-case basis. There are democratically-elected leaders whose opinion on multiculturalism or community relations I wouldn't give a stuff. Would I take lessons from Berlusconi? From Viktor Urban in Hungary? From José María Aznar? ¡Qué va! I would not. I suspect that mbig and friends would not give the opinion of Hugo Chavez (with better democratic credentials than Lee Kwan Yew, btw) very much credence. You pays your bribe, you takes your chance! :mrgreen:

Andalublue please refrain from differentiation. Italy and Hungary are in EUROPE remember!!

Paul

 

[Infinite Chaos]

I think you have to assess these things on a case-by-case basis--

Agreed, however the methods by which a leader (benevolent dictator or democratically elected leader) enforces a policy or drags his or her country up with can tell you a little. I still read that Singapore still allows military disciplinary enforcement through caning and whipping any guilty party. Kuan Lee (if I recall correctly) was instrumental in bringing about such a policy. Caning is still used in judicial punishment and an American citizen brought it on himself not too many years ago.

Such support would not be found by the aforementioned posters for public whipping and or such public punishments if they are brought by a muslim leader. In fact I remember RoP posting a video of caning in Sudan that brought outrage around the world.

 

[Albert Di Salvo]

Something similar is quietly happening in Canada.

Speaking hard truths about multiculturalism

Very good article. Thanks. The sins of multiculturalism are now becoming impossible to hide.

Yesterday the Director of Counterterrorism in the US named an American as the greatest terrorist threat to the American people. The American terrorist is named Anwar al Awlaki born and raised in the State of New Mexico. A product of the American school system. The sins of multiculturalism are becoming harder and harder for the Left to hide.

 

[Albert Di Salvo]

Do you extend the same to other dictators too? Benevolent or otherwise?

Chinese leaders have dragged China from impoverished 3rd world country that received a large amount of UK aid into 2nd most powerful economy in the world in less time than Lee Kwan Yeu had with Singapore. Do you extend the same honour to them?

Multiculturalism is strictly a phenomenon of the West. Imo the Chinese have seen the results of multiculturalism and they will have none of it in the Sinosphere.

 

[Andalublue]

Agreed, however the methods by which a leader (benevolent dictator or democratically elected leader) enforces a policy or drags his or her country up with can tell you a little. I still read that Singapore still allows military disciplinary enforcement through caning and whipping any guilty party. Kuan Lee (if I recall correctly) was instrumental in bringing about such a policy. Caning is still used in judicial punishment and an American citizen brought it on himself not too many years ago.

Such support would not be found by the aforementioned posters for public whipping and or such public punishments if they are brought by a muslim leader. In fact I remember RoP posting a video of caning in Sudan that brought outrage around the world.

I completely agree with you. No surprise there! I'm sure mbig et al would find corporal punishment handed down by a Shari'a court barbaric. I wonder what they think of Singaporean caning? For the record, I find both abhorent and would argue strongly against any thought of allowing such punishments to be exercised in 'brainwashed' Britain.

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

Multiculturalism is strictly a phenomenon of the West.

Indeed. You don't get India's Establishment whining about the country being 'hideously brown' or African tinpots waxing lyrical about how the demographic needs to be massaged by pumping in immigrants by the container-load. (Though, to be fair, nobody really wants in to places like Zimbabwe or South Africa.)

Leftard wickedness: BBC News | SCOTLAND | Dyke: BBC is 'hideously white'

Sod off: Hodge: 'Proms are wrong kind of British' | News

The Proms are actually the best of British you bullfaced Marxist hag: The only Asian in the audience | Music | The Guardian

I wonder what they think of Singaporean caning?

For here I'd rather they bring back workhouses and stick any real ne'er-do-wells in there. After a bit of that they'll be far too knackered to beat up old women or terrorise shopkeepers.

What's more, we can put the Muslims which Pete EU says we should be lumbered with because nobody else wants them (not surprised).

 

[Grant]

Do you extend the same to other dictators too? Benevolent or otherwise?

Chinese leaders have dragged China from impoverished 3rd world country that received a large amount of UK aid into 2nd most powerful economy in the world in less time than Lee Kwan Yeu had with Singapore. Do you extend the same honour to them?

Actually you can take it as a given that I'll find something interesting in what most people have to say, no matter their background. I needn't agree with them though.

It's interesting to read the opinions of Napoleon, for example, despite the carnage he created in Europe, or even Mussolini or Goebbels. Many have read Mein Kamph (it's popular with Muslims right now) but that doesn't mean we are aspiring to be Nazis. Sometimes it's just to see what makes others tick. In fact I see Goebbels quoted on these boards quite often , though usually in a negative way. Many believe there is much to learn from all types of people, in a positive or negative way, and I happen to be one of them.

Apparently the only perfect human being ever was Mohamed so you might well be one of his followers. Would that be right?