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Our Enemies, The Israelis

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Winston Smith

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The guy who got it right on Iraq, WMD, and Abu Ghraib asks a pointed question--what do you call a country that flouts our interests and denigrates our values at every turn? Leaving aside the squabbling about Israeli and Palestinian issues, Justin Raimondo looks at it from an American point of view.

Our Enemies, the Israelis by Justin Raimondo -- Antiwar.com
 

donsutherland1

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Perhaps in Justin Raimondo's skewed perception of America's interests, he can argue that Israel is an "enemy." However, in the broad and enduring bipartisan consensus on American interests, Israel is properly viewed as a staunch and reliable ally. That is unlikely to change anytime soon.
 

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Aunt Spiker

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My view is different than that, though.

I don't consider Israel and enemy or an ally - I consider them to just be different, with their own issues. I see them as being capable of standing for themselves and deal with their own troubles (either that others bring onto them - or that they start for their selves).

I see them as being portrayed as weak or in need of help - but they aren't. . . and it's not our place to continue to interfere, pick a side, and toss out opinions.

Since they cause so many of their own problems I think they are really telling us (by their actions) that "we've got this. . ." which means we can leave them alone and wander off to other things.

I don't believe that 'if you're not with us you're against us' - I just think our country's quite incapable of stepping away and letting crap happen without us getting involved.
 

justabubba

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he makes some very valid points, but as to this point (twice made) i must disagree:
... their physical existence, as well as their political independence as a nation-state, depends wholly on the lifeline of American subsidies ...
the USA does provide added political and military security, which support deserves to be withdrawn. but to insist that israel survives only because of America's support is an unrealistic assertion

the AIPAC influence is just another symptom of the major problem the USA needs to solve. we have the best government money can buy. "donations" paid over to politicians buys political favors, no matter how illegitimate those favors might be. if we ended this legal bribery the damaging tether to israel would soon be ended
 

justabubba

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Justin Raimondo is an obvious antisemite.

What a piece of human filth.
i see this allegation that someone is an "antisemite" and it sounds like the whine of minorities yelling "racist" when they have been found doing wrong

tell us what he has said about semites which would be found antisemetic
 

Gardener

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i see this allegation that someone is an "antisemite" and it sounds like the whine of minorities yelling "racist" when they have been found doing wrong

tell us what he has said about semites which would be found antisemetic
The term antisemite refers to hostility towards Jews despite your sophistry in attempting this ruse of appealing to literalism , and such hostility is patently apparent in his copious writings on the subject. He is little more than David Duke under a different guise.
 

Apocalypse

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Merely another radical who spreads his hatred towards Israel. I couldn't find the uniqueness in the specific article that would motivate you to post it here instead of the hundreds of thousands of other articles on the internet that play the part of the anti-Israeli propaganda machine.
 

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Merely another radical who spreads his hatred towards Israel. I couldn't find the uniqueness in the specific article that would motivate you to post it here instead of the hundreds of thousands of other articles on the internet that play the part of the anti-Israeli propaganda machine.
It's just one more in a long line of postings intended to ridicule, debase, degrade, intimidate, or incite violence and/or prejudicial actions against a group of people based on their race, gender, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sexual orientation, or disability.
 

Aunt Spiker

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Bull****.
Israel's "own problems" are caused by those who seek to annihilate it.
They didn't bring on any of their own problems?
A country and their problems is always a two-way street. You give some, you take some.

EVERY country falls under this - it's just a fact of life and history.
 

Apocalypse

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They didn't bring on any of their own problems?
I'm not going to enter this 100% arguments.
I'm saying that your claim that "Israel brings so many of its own problems on itself" has nothing to do with reality and history.
 

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Bull****.
Israel's "own problems" are caused by those who seek to annihilate it.
But if you weren't a Jew, Apoc, nobody would try to kill you for being one, so it IS your fault!
 

Aunt Spiker

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I'm not going to enter this 100% arguments.
I'm saying that your claim that "Israel brings so many of its own problems on itself" has nothing to do with reality and history.
It's a fact of history that they've caused their own problems (I never pegged what type of problems nor did I choose a problem).
It's also a fact of history that others have decided to bring problems down on them.

A country can create problems for itself in countless ways . . . and this is the scope I was thinking of.

A country's own problems can be caused by: government (what type, how it's structured and organized). Economy (what type, how it functions, is it sustainable?). Social structuring (can people make a living for theirselves? Is their inequality and injustice per gender and race? . . . ) Religion (how much is religion a key part in all these other areas). Reactions to issues (how do they deal with their neighbors who don't agree with them? . . . .) and so on.

A country is often it's own worst enemy when it comes to all these areas.

Don't ever let someone convince you that "our country is suffering solely because of the actions of *this other country* that we don't get along with." . . . because *that "we're just the victim" mentality IS bull****.
 

Degreez

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I'm saying that your claim that "Israel brings so many of its own problems on itself" has nothing to do with reality and history.
That statement has no basis in reality and history.
 

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Apocalypse

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Don't ever let someone convince you that "our country is suffering solely because of the actions of *this other country* that we don't get along with." . . . because *that "we're just the victim" mentality IS bull****.
My country's not suffering.

And what I'm opposed to is the notion you've tried to promote with the claim that "Israel has started so many of its own problems" referring to the Israeli-involved conflicts.

I fully understand that on other fields it is a non-brainer that the country is the main factor, such as economy, social issues, internal security (crime), etc.
However I don't think those are the fields you were referring to.
 

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It's a fact of history that they've caused their own problems (I never pegged what type of problems nor did I choose a problem).

They have "caused their own problems" by being Jews controlling a miniscule sliver of land in the middle of an enormous expanse of Arabs.
 

Winston Smith

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Perhaps in Justin Raimondo's skewed perception of America's interests, he can argue that Israel is an "enemy." However, in the broad and enduring bipartisan consensus on American interests, Israel is properly viewed as a staunch and reliable ally. That is unlikely to change anytime soon.
There has long been a broad consensus that control of the Middle East was ours for the taking. Facts on the ground are calling that consensus into question. Reality has a stubborn way of holding on despite passions and politics. In reality, aside from their meddling in the Kurdish region of Iraq, what has Israel done to help our efforts?
 

Winston Smith

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i see this allegation that someone is an "antisemite" and it sounds like the whine of minorities yelling "racist" when they have been found doing wrong

tell us what he has said about semites which would be found antisemetic
Don't ask. Let's see if we can keep this thread on point and not engage with the ad hominem attacks. It only encourages them.
 

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justabubba

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Don't ask. Let's see if we can keep this thread on point and not engage with the ad hominem attacks. It only encourages them.
any criticism of israel - no matter how legitimate that criticism may be - is met by an assertion that to hold such a critical view causes one to be an antisemite
it does not matter that the same criticism would be levied against non-jewish nations of china, mexico, or greece if those nations committed the same objectionable actions ... that the criticism is levied against israel causes a knee-jerk response that the one behind the critical post must necessarily be antisemetic
we see this equivalent of the race card played whenever they are without a valid rebuttal to inappropriate israeli actions
rather than remaining silent, i would prefer to hi-lite this form of self-victimization unique to the israeli propagandists
 

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Justin Raimondo is an obvious antisemite.

What a piece of human filth.
As per usual, no refutations of Mr. Raimondo's assertions, but rather more baseless cheapshots.
 

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I think the article fails in the notion that Israel killing U.S. citizens makes them an enemy of the U.S. The problem being it assumes that the lives of U.S. citizens matter to the U.S. government when said citizens go against U.S. foreign policy. Some people like to portray AIPAC or other lobbyist organizations linked to foreign countries as manipulating or controlling the U.S., when in fact the reverse is true. Mossad most likely operates in the U.S. at the behest of elements of the U.S. government, if not the government as a whole. After all, it is far more convenient to have foreign spies who are not obliged to obey our laws investigating and going after groups the U.S. wants to take down.

As I recall Echelon has been used by foreign governments to investigate people in the U.S. and this information was then shared with the U.S. government, thus allowing an end-run around that pesky Constitution.

To put it plainly, someone suggesting Israel is the problem is glossing over the more central issue in the United States and that is the entire system of corruption and abuse in this country. Blaming Israel is a convenient out and I cannot help but wonder if the whole notion is deliberately devised to distract people from that system. What I think is that the peace is a way for the American establishment to disengage itself from Israel in a sense or, more appropriately, shift towards a greater regional focus.
 
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