Our Enemies, The Israelis

[Winston Smith]

I think the article fails in the notion that Israel killing U.S. citizens makes them an enemy of the U.S. The problem being it assumes that the lives of U.S. citizens matter to the U.S. government when said citizens go against U.S. foreign policy. Some people like to portray AIPAC or other lobbyist organizations linked to foreign countries as manipulating or controlling the U.S., when in fact the reverse is true. Mossad most likely operates in the U.S. at the behest of elements of the U.S. government, if not the government as a whole. After all, it is far more convenient to have foreign spies who are not obliged to obey our laws investigating and going after groups the U.S. wants to take down.

As I recall Echelon has been used by foreign governments to investigate people in the U.S. and this information was then shared with the U.S. government, thus allowing an end-run around that pesky Constitution.

To put it plainly, someone suggesting Israel is the problem is glossing over the more central issue in the United States and that is the entire system of corruption and abuse in this country. Blaming Israel is a convenient out and I cannot help but wonder if the whole notion is deliberately devised to distract people from that system. What I think is that the peace is a way for the American establishment to disengage itself from Israel in a sense or, more appropriately, shift towards a greater regional focus.

I agree with a lot of that. I don't think Raimondo is assuming the US government cares about the lives of its citizens. He does very rightly assume that it should care if it wants to do its job and have any credibility. He's calling Israel an enemy of American interests rightly understood, not the corrupt system that you're talking about. If you've read much of Raimondo's work, he would seem to be the last person who'd want to distract attention from what's wrong here in the US. Our own corrupt system is the bigger problem. But I think it's possible to see both and even to see that they go hand in hand.

 

[Demon of Light]

I agree with a lot of that. I don't think Raimondo is assuming the US government cares about the lives of its citizens. He does very rightly assume that it should care if it wants to do its job and have any credibility. He's calling Israel an enemy of American interests rightly understood, not the corrupt system that you're talking about. If you've read much of Raimondo's work, he would seem to be the last person who'd want to distract attention from what's wrong here in the US. Our own corrupt system is the bigger problem. But I think it's possible to see both and even to see that they go hand in hand.

I think he probably doesn't want to distract from problems in the U.S. system, but the idea is not originally his after all. He is just repeating a claim others have made. More interesting to me would be the original source of claims Israel is manipulating us.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

the AIPAC influence is just another symptom of the major problem the USA needs to solve. we have the best government money can buy. "donations" paid over to politicians buys political favors, no matter how illegitimate those favors might be. if we ended this legal bribery the damaging tether to israel would soon be ended

It's not like there's only one lobbying group skewing our government's agendas. I think AIPAC gets more than it's fair share of attention in this matter.
You're right that the real problem is that we have a broken system that lets, AIPAC, and many, many other lobbies distort our government and it's functions. Some of them are related to foreign governments and other are related to domestic industries.
Artificial persons should not be allowed to lobby our government. They should be forced to lobby and educate the American electorate instead.

 

[MKULTRABOY]

Bull****.
Israel's "own problems" are caused by those who seek to annihilate it.

Actually according to some who study the situation, the nature of the relationship between Israel and the US detracts from their own foreign policy goals and aggravates the situation. Im in class right now and were talking about it.

 

[Apocalypse]

Actually according to some who study the situation, the nature of the relationship between Israel and the US detracts from their own foreign policy goals and aggravates the situation. Im in class right now and were talking about it.

Well I see, so we've come now to a stage where those who've "studied the situation" (by turning to their own chosen subjective sources) are more knowledgeable than those who've lived the situation.

Besides that I wouldn't depend on what those college lecturers teach in their courses. They happen to be the most subjective people themselves.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Well I see, so we've come now to a stage where those who've "studied the situation" (by turning to their own chosen subjective sources) are more knowledgeable than those who've lived the situation.

Besides that I wouldn't depend on what those college lecturers teach in their courses. They happen to be the most subjective people themselves.

The problem I've had in trying to sort out all the things that go on over there (broad generalized 'over there' as in all of the Middle East) is that it's *sooo* complicated and *sooo* "leggy" that it's really hard to figure out who did what, who started when, and why things happened.

That's what happens when something goes on *for yeeeears* and is multi faceted - and involves religion.

Right now in my Civilization and Art History class we're learning about various aspects of religion (more so - why people didn't get along and efforts they took to erase evidence of so-n-so from the books) and it's just crazy. Dislike for Judaism, Catholicism, Islam and other such religions is so heavy and peppered it's a headache and nothing seems to really have a defined start-point, either.

I've done my best to wrap my lil ole brain around it all, but I aint no magician

 

[jmh423]

It's not like there's only one lobbying group skewing our government's agendas. I think AIPAC gets more than it's fair share of attention in this matter.
You're right that the real problem is that we have a broken system that lets, AIPAC, and many, many other lobbies distort our government and it's functions. Some of them are related to foreign governments and other are related to domestic industries.
Artificial persons should not be allowed to lobby our government. They should be forced to lobby and educate the American electorate instead.

Dear Sir,

I agree wholeheartedly with your assertion that:"Artificial persons should not be allowed to lobby our government". Also it is true that there are many nefarious lobbying groups "skewing our government's agendas". However I think you are seriously downplaying the outrageous influence that the Israeli lobby and it's faithful servants that have totally infested all branches of the US government have over our foreign and domestic policy much to the detriment of both the American and Israeli rank and file citizens. There is no other group with such a well funded and coordinated organization that even approaches the "Israel First" outfit. To wit:

The State And Local Bases Of Zionist Power In America

EXCERPT:

"Any serious effort to understand the extraordinary influence of the Zionist power configuration over US foreign policy must examine the presence of key operatives in strategic positions in the government and the activities of local Zionist organizations affiliated with mainstream Jewish organizations and religious orders.

There are at least 52 major American Jewish organizations actively engaged in promoting Israel's foreign policy, economic and technological agenda in the US (see the appendix). The grassroots membership ranges from several hundred thousand militants in the Jewish Federations of North America (JFNA) to one hundred thousand wealthy contributors, activists and power brokers in the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC). In addition scores of propaganda mills, dubbed think tanks, have been established by million dollar grants from billionaire Zionists including the Brookings Institute (Haim Saban) and the Hudson Institute among others.

Scores of Zionist funded political action committees (PAC) have intervened in all national and regional elections, controlling nominations and influencing election outcomes. Publishing houses, including university presses have been literally taken over by Zionist zealots, the most egregious example being Yale University, which publishes the most unbalanced tracts parroting Zionist parodies of Jewish history (Financial Times book review section August 28/29 2010). New heavily funded Zionist projects designed to capture young Jews and turn them into instruments of Israeli foreign policy includes "Taglit-Birthright" which has spent over $250 million dollars over the past decade sending over a quarter-million Jews (between 18-26) to Israel for 10 days of intense brainwashing (Boston Globe August 26, 2010). Jewish billionaires and the Israeli state foot the bill. The students are subject to a heavy dose of Israeli style militarism as they are accompanied by Israeli soldiers as part of their indoctrination; at no point do they visit the West Bank, Gaza or East Jerusalem (Boston Globe August 26, 2010). They are urged to become dual citizens and even encouraged to serve in the Israeli armed forces."

The usual diversion used here and by all propagandists worldwide is to simply attack the messenger and ignore the content of the assertions made by same, by using some silly ad hom attack or ridiculous moderation actions using the total BS "martial law" clause specially introduced here on this forum....LOL... But just one time it would be interesting if ANYONE would actually refute the assertions made by the author instead of these transparent, evasive, and sleazy tactics. Is there actually anything in the excerpt I posted that is not true? If so, please have the courtesy to point it out instead of slithering off or scolding me for pointing out the OBVIOUS...

Cheers

 

[MKULTRABOY]

Well I see, so we've come now to a stage where those who've "studied the situation" (by turning to their own chosen subjective sources) are more knowledgeable than those who've lived the situation.

Without knowing who you're even talking about you already dismiss them as biased. Pathetic considering who 'they' actually are.

Please read. Its the most robust study of the US and Israel's relationship. By some of the founder of modern international political thought.

 

[Apocalypse]

Without knowing who you're even talking about you already dismiss them as biased. Pathetic considering who 'they' actually are.

Please read. Its the most robust study of the US and Israel's relationship. By some of the founder of modern international political thought.

I have no intention read on hate spreading conspiracy theories that come at the form of books.

 

[MKULTRABOY]

You do realise that now youre condemning the book, not for supposed content, but the fact that it addresses US-Israeli relations and dares to ask the question of the effect of the largest lobby in the US.

You're an anti-semites dream. Most unfortunate.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

I would enjoy seeing a quantitative analysis showing the relative influence of various lobbying interests, if anyone has one or cares to make one.

 

[Apocalypse]

You do realise that now youre condemning the book, not for supposed content, but the fact that it addresses US-Israeli relations and dares to ask the question of the effect of the largest lobby in the US.

You're an anti-semites dream. Most unfortunate.

I realize that I'm opposing the claim that the Jewish lobby has a decisive influence over the American foreign policy.
I'd rather be a realist and recognize that American interests do and always will play a bigger part in American foreign policy then what one lobby or another is promoting.

 

[Degreez]

I realize that I'm opposing the claim that the Jewish lobby has a decisive influence over the American foreign policy.
I'd rather be a realist and recognize that American interests do and always will play a bigger part in American foreign policy then what one lobby or another is promoting.

There you go twisting people's words yet again.

No one said the Israeli lobby has a decisive influence over American foreign policy. The debate is over the extent of that influence, which does exist.

 

[Apocalypse]

There you go twisting people's words yet again.

No one said the Israeli lobby has a decisive influence over American foreign policy. The debate is over the extent of that influence, which does exist.

Feel free to answer post #36, oh wise one.

 

[Degreez]

Feel free to answer post #36, oh wise one.

Post number #36 has no question, genius. And it is incredibly vague. Various implies lots of things. Are we researching domestic or foreign lobby groups? Trade organizations or self-interest groups?

But great job deflecting from the fact that you twist people's words and then argue with your misinterpretation of it.

 

[jmh423]

I realize that I'm opposing the claim that the Jewish lobby has a decisive influence over the American foreign policy.
I'd rather be a realist and recognize that American interests do and always will play a bigger part in American foreign policy then what one lobby or another is promoting.

The point is, that it is impossible to distinguish between so called "US interests" and "Israeli interests" as the same entity controls both ruling parties by covert means. It is my opinion that neither the interests of Americans or Israelis is being served by this entity. The interests that ARE being served are those few elites who make thier money from selling weaponry & battlefield expendables and producing debt by means of usury. Religion has nothing to do with this but is only used as a subtrafuge. Zionism is a political entity not a religious entity. Most US zionists hide behind, and depend on financial and political support from Christian fundie groups along with militant Jewish outfits.


The State And Local Bases Of Zionist Power In America


Conclusion

The power of Israel in the US does not reside only in the influence and leadership of powerful Washington based "pro-Israel lobbies", like AIPAC. Without the hundreds of thousands of militant locally-based dentists, podiatrists, stockbrokers, real estate brokers, profesors and others, the "lobby" would be unable to sustain and implement its policy among hundreds of millions of Americans outside the major metropolises. As we have seen from the Senate declassified documents, over a half-century ago, local Zionist organizations began a systematic campaign of penetration, control and intimidation that has reached its pinnacle in the first decade of the 21st century. It is no accident or mere coincidence that University officials in Northern Minnesota or upstate New York are targeted to exclude speakers or fire faculty members critical of Israel. Local Zionists have computerized databanks operating with an index of prohibited speakers, as the Zionists themselves admit and flaunt in contrast to "liberal" Zionists who are prone to label as "anti-Semitic" or "conspiracy theorists" writers who cite official Zionist documents demonstrating their systematic perversion of our democratic freedoms.

Over the decades, the distinction between Zionist power exercised by a "lobby" outside the government and operatives "inside" the government has virtually vanished. As we have seen, in our case study, AIPAC secured the undersecretary position in Treasury, dictated the appointment of a key Zionist operative (Stuart Levey) and accompanies his global crusade to sanction Iran into starvation and destitution. The planting of operatives within key Middle East positions in government is not the simple result of individual career choices. The ascent of so many pro-Israel Zionist to government posts is part of their mission to serve Israel's interest at least for a few years of their careers. Their presence in government precludes any Senate or Congressional investigations of Zionists organizations acting as agents of a foreign power as took place in the 1960's.

Moderator's Warning:

Edited for Fair-Use

 

[jallman]

Justin Raimondo is an obvious antisemite.

What a piece of human filth.

Why can't Israel ever be criticized without the anti-semite card being played immediately. And for that matter, when did criticism of Israel translate to criticism of Jews?

 

[MKULTRABOY]

Feel free to answer post #36, oh wise one.

Its asking to quantify something unquantifiable. Unless you're talking about reserve military equipment, subsidies, military cooperation, free weapons, illegal cash for illegal settlements, and policies that result in aggravated terror. Those kinds of things are quantified in the book.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Its asking to quantify something unquantifiable. Unless you're talking about reserve military equipment, subsidies, military cooperation, free weapons, illegal cash for illegal settlements, and policies that result in aggravated terror. Those kinds of things are quantified in the book.

If it's not quantifiable, how can anyone have determined that Pro-Israeli lobbies wield undue influence in comparison to other lobbying groups?

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Why can't Israel ever be criticized without the anti-semite card being played immediately. And for that matter, when did criticism of Israel translate to criticism of Jews?

It's worth noting that certain criticisms of Israel are considered by some to be prima facie evidence of anti-semitism. The line of reasoning for people who belive such things seems to be that Israel has a special status apart from all other nations.

 

[jallman]

It's worth noting that certain criticisms of Israel are considered by some to be prima facie evidence of anti-semitism. The line of reasoning for people who belive such things seems to be that Israel has a special status apart from all other nations.

That's a perception that Israel shamelessly promotes.

 

[Khayembii Communique]

And one to which Gardener shamelessly adheres.

 

[Jucon]

Just asking questions here...

Why does the US government condemn and put sanctions on Iran for their suspected nuclear activity while Israel has been believed to have nuclear weapons for years and no sanctions are brought on them?

Why do many countries around the world condemn (if even lightly) Israeli actions throughout the years while the US often comes to Israel's support?

Why was Israel the recipient of the most U.S. foreign aid from 1976 to 2004?
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

 

[jmh423]

Just asking questions here...

Why does the US government condemn and put sanctions on Iran for their suspected nuclear activity while Israel has been believed to have nuclear weapons for years and no sanctions are brought on them?

Why do many countries around the world condemn (if even lightly) Israeli actions throughout the years while the US often comes to Israel's support?

Why was Israel the recipient of the most U.S. foreign aid from 1976 to 2004?
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

The answer is because the US government has been infested at all levels by agents of Israel. Many are so called "dual citizens". Former comptroller of the Pentagon Dov Zakheim is a prime example of this infestation. In his time at the controlls of the pentagon 3 trillion dollars dissappeared and there were wholesale giveaways of billions of US military hardware to Israel under the guise of unloading surplus.

Following Zakheim and Pentagon trillions to Israel and 9-11

Following Zakheim and Pentagon trillions to Israel and 9-11By Jerry Mazza
Online Journal Associate Editor


Jul 31, 2006, 00:19

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Think of this as part two of Recherche du trillions perdu, my Online Journal article on Dov Zakheim, former Bush appointee as Pentagon Comptroller from May 4, 2001 to March 10, 2004. At that time he was unable to explain the disappearance of $1 trillion dollars. Actually, nearly three years earlier, Donald Rumsfeld announced on September 10, 2001 that an audit discovered $2.3 trillion was also missing from the Pentagon books. That story, as I mentioned, was buried under 9-11’s rubble. The two sums disappeared on Zakheim’s watch.

Yet on May 6, 2004, Zakheim took a lucrative position at Booz Allen Hamilton, one of the most prestigious strategy consulting firms in the world. One of its clients then was Blessed Relief, a charity said to be a front for Osama bin Laden. Booz, Allen & Hamilton then also worked closely with DARPA, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, which is the research arm of the Department of Defense. So the dark card was shifted to another part of the deck.

Judicial Inc’s bio of Dov (linked below) tells us Zakheim was/is a dual Israeli/American citizen and an ordained rabbi and had been tracking the halls of US government for 25 years, casting defense policy and influence on Presidents Reagan, Clinton, Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. He is, as I described him earlier, the bionic Zionist. In fact, Judicial Inc points out that most of Israel’s armaments were gotten thanks to him. Squads of US F-16 and F-15 were classified military surplus and sold to Israel at a fraction of their value."

 

[jmh423]

OUR ENEMIES, THE ISRAELIS


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