Its worse than we thought: tuition fees to rise to £9,000

[jallman]

Right wing thinking at work.. class warfare at its worst. The UK is turning more and more like the US and a 3rd world country where higher education is only for the rich.

Wait...what? Education in the US is actually quite affordable and there are all manner of grants and tuition assistances to help people get educations.

You have no idea what you're talking about half the time, do you?

 

[Orion]

I agree with Australianlibertarian. Degrees are now seen as a method of entering the workforce, and are gradually not falling in line with the academic tradition of inquiry. The modern marketing of universities is partly to blame for that, but so is the system of employers. I will never understand why, in modern times, many desk jobs now have degree requirements. Memorization of routine tasks does not require higher education unless what you are doing requires a highly specialized skill set. All the market saturation of degrees has accomplished is increasing the barrier of entry into the work force; many places now ask for a degree PLUS experience, and if you have a bachelor's degree you can forget it. The new barrier is increasingly a masters degree.

Universities should always remain kind of elitist in terms of entry requirements and academia. I'm not sure how I feel about increasing university costs for everyone so that the poor can get free tuition. I realize most people who go to uni are at least somewhat privileged in the first place and that there is an obvious disparity, but not everyone who is there has a free ride. I come from a middle class family and going to school while maintaining basic survival has been a delicate balance. If my tuition or ancillary costs increase because the poor are given access more access to uni, then I will fall just short of being able to afford to go, yet I will not be considered 'poor enough' to apply for a subsidy.

The rich will always be able to afford school. What this policy does is hurt people who are in the middle class who are just making do. More poor people may be able to attend but people from the middle-lower class bracket will be pushed out, yet they simultaneously won't qualify as poor.

The best thing people can do before they enter university is question their own motivations. If it's about getting a job and income, then they'd be better off going to vocational school because they are apt to make just as much if not more money than most degrees will net them. If they are genuinely interested in an academic pursuit or they are interested in a white collar profession, then uni might be the better route. If more people did this, our economy would be less saturated with useless uni graduates who are working in coffee shops with enormous debt.

 

[Red_Dave]

No Scottish education scroungers in exchange for no North Sea Oil?

Or alternately move to Scotland and study there.

Actually English students have to pay more at Scottish universities then students from outside the UK (despite the fact that we are subsidising their education system). Though I agree with you in that I don't think it will discourage poor students from applying if the right information gets out (I.E that you only pay after you are earning a certain amount). I think if anything the insinuation that poorer students are incapable of earning a decent amount of money after they graduate is rather patronising. The Americans should bear in mind that we don't have much in the way of scholarships like they do but I,ve lived in countries where people really have to fight to get into university so im not sure how much of a right we have to complain here .

Btw am I right in thinking that Swedish universities are still free for E.U students?

 

[PeteEU]

Wait...what? Education in the US is actually quite affordable and there are all manner of grants and tuition assistances to help people get educations.

Affordable..

You have no idea what you're talking about half the time, do you?

Of course I do. US higher education is by far the most expensive on the planet. That alone will be a problem for those not well off, regardless if there are grants and programs. It WILL prevent people from getting a higher education. In most European countries, and especially the Scandinavian, that barrier does not exist because the higher education is free.

 

[jallman]

Affordable..



Of course I do. US higher education is by far the most expensive on the planet. That alone will be a problem for those not well off, regardless if there are grants and programs. It WILL prevent people from getting a higher education. In most European countries, and especially the Scandinavian, that barrier does not exist because the higher education is free.

OK...now I know you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

 

[digsbe]

Nothing is "free." Taxes in Scandinavia are incredibly high as are taxes across Europe.

 

[PeteEU]

Nothing is "free." Taxes in Scandinavia are incredibly high as are taxes across Europe.

And so what? The basis of comparison is not equal.

For the Denmark, the 49% tax rate, includes free education up to and including university level and free healthcare for all. It is especially the healthcare bit that is critical.

So to have any remotely accurate comparison to the "burden" of a citizen, then you have to add to the 28.2% tax rate of the US, the cost of a similar healthcare plan (with no deductibles, and no maximum) plus the cost of a similar education level. When you do that then I would wager that the average American has a higher burden than the average Dane, despite Danes paying more in taxes.

 

[digsbe]

I don't think 20% of the average American's income goes towards healthcare. On top of that we also have government healthcare for seniors and the poor. The taxes also do not equate to college tuition. Also, Americans typically make more money than those listed (I believe Norway would be the only exception, but they also have a far greater cost of living). Regardless, nothing is "free." There is no free university tuition, there is higher taxes with the service of government paid schooling. Taxes are lower over here and I get about $12,000 a year from the government in tuition aid.

 

[DrunkenAsparagus]

And so what? The basis of comparison is not equal.

For the Denmark, the 49% tax rate, includes free education up to and including university level and free healthcare for all. It is especially the healthcare bit that is critical.

So to have any remotely accurate comparison to the "burden" of a citizen, then you have to add to the 28.2% tax rate of the US, the cost of a similar healthcare plan (with no deductibles, and no maximum) plus the cost of a similar education level. When you do that then I would wager that the average American has a higher burden than the average Dane, despite Danes paying more in taxes.

This largely, has to do with the US's healthcare system, being a government-private cluster****.

 

[Manc Skipper]

Do you have any idea how ridiculously inexpensive that is in U.S. terms?

We're not in the US. Would you find paying three times as much as you currently do an acceptable rise in costs?

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Affordable..



Of course I do. US higher education is by far the most expensive on the planet. That alone will be a problem for those not well off, regardless if there are grants and programs. It WILL prevent people from getting a higher education. In most European countries, and especially the Scandinavian, that barrier does not exist because the higher education is free.

Here are just two sources of proving it, the first is the federal program, the second is the program run in my state.

Notice that both are geared towards lower and middle income students.

Federal Pell Grant Program

HOPE Scholarship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

We're not in the US. Would you find paying three times as much as you currently do an acceptable rise in costs?

Maybe it's time to rethink, the idea of pushing everyone, into university. :shrug:

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Maybe it's time to rethink, the idea of pushing everyone, into university. :shrug:

That particular ideal was highly misplaced but also misunderstood - it wasn't just university but also into re-training in technical skills. From personal experience far too much financial emphasis in the UK has been recently placed on funding higher education and not enough spent on supporting and developing skills training.

Germany has superb technical and vocational training colleges and institutions (and thus their engineering and manufacturing continues to drive their economy) in comparison to the UK, we however have a higher number of Universities sitting in the top 200 World rated universities - we're spending far too much in the wrong area (IMO) in the UK.

 

[PeteEU]

I don't think 20% of the average American's income goes towards healthcare.

We are not talking about what % of the average American's income goes towards healthcare, but how much American's need to pay to get the same level of coverage as the Danes.

On top of that we also have government healthcare for seniors and the poor.

Thats already factored into taxes.

The taxes also do not equate to college tuition. Also, Americans typically make more money than those listed (I believe Norway would be the only exception, but they also have a far greater cost of living).

Taxes does equate to college tuiton in Denmark. So to make it comparable, the average American has to add X thousands of dollars to his yearly burden.

Actually, depends on how you measure it. If you use the GDP (Nominal method) then Denmark is far ahead of the US on average income. Add to that the fact that the US has double the income inequality of Denmark... something like 5% of the population earn 70+% of the income in the US, then you have to take the "on average" comment with a grain of salt in the US.

Regardless, nothing is "free." There is no free university tuition, there is higher taxes with the service of government paid schooling. Taxes are lower over here and I get about $12,000 a year from the government in tuition aid.

Which explains your deficit issues if you have low taxes AND get 12k a year in tuition aid.

I have zero problem by paying a top rate of 50% in taxes as long as they go to something meaningful, which it does. Plus it is a top rate.. the average middle class person does not pay anywhere near that. I think my last tax return had a tax rate of 34% or so.

 

[PeteEU]

Here are just two sources of proving it, the first is the federal program, the second is the program run in my state.

Notice that both are geared towards lower and middle income students.

Federal Pell Grant Program

HOPE Scholarship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Congrats you got some programs. So again, what are the chances that a young black man from a inner city environment will go to college?

 

[kaya'08]

Do you have any idea how ridiculously inexpensive that is in U.S. terms?

Are you aware that the average British household earns much less than the average American household? Also grants are readily available in the US. In Europe, you need to be an A* student to expect something like that or at least have a GPA of 9.0+ to earn a scholarship. Other grant systems are not widely available or easy to access.

Goods and services in America are much cheaper in comparison to the UK. When we take into account all these factors, not to mention the degree of austerity the UK faces (and the expected 1.6 million job losses in the coming years) - this is very expensive for your average middle class British family.

 

[Red_Dave]

Maybe it's time to rethink, the idea of pushing everyone, into university. :shrug:

Well the target is (or was under New Labour) 50% but I think thats pretty realistic. We have no heavy industry any more, argriculture and fishing have both been ****ed by the E.U and centering our economy on the banking sector didnt really work out so the only thing we have to market is an educated population. Im not sure there will even be that many jobs that people can do without degrees (or at least a great deal of training) in the near future now that all low skilled jobs are going to India and China.

 

[kaya'08]

people from poor backgrounds will be discouraged only if the bad misinformation continues to swamp what the system actually does - i.e. you only pay if you acheive a high rate of pay and even then, you only pay a small monthly amount from your salary.

Not a particularly high rate of pay; £22,000 a year and your expected to start paying back debts. And also the interest rate has increased so i'm not too sure what we are looking at here.
Its beside the point either way. Living costs for students alone are very expensive. To go on and ask students for additional money to go to University is a crime. These students will leave university inheriting large debts and its going to affect there ability to obtain loans - assuming they dont obtain any just to get by on day to day expenses.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Congrats you got some programs. So again, what are the chances that a young black man from a inner city environment will go to college?

All he would have to do is apply, for the program and the school, which he will be almost guaranteed to be accepted.
State universities accept practically everyone, regardless of previous high school grades.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Well the target is (or was under New Labour) 50% but I think thats pretty realistic. We have no heavy industry any more, argriculture and fishing have both been ****ed by the E.U and centering our economy on the banking sector didnt really work out so the only thing we have to market is an educated population. Im not sure there will even be that many jobs that people can do without degrees (or at least a great deal of training) in the near future now that all low skilled jobs are going to India and China.

There are still low skilled jobs but to clarify what I mean, a lot of people are going to university around the world, for jobs that don't really require a university degree.

It's just required to get those jobs, because everyone is going to university.

 

[Red_Dave]

There are still low skilled jobs but to clarify what I mean, a lot of people are going to university around the world, for jobs that don't really require a university degree.

It's just required to get those jobs, because everyone is going to university.

A few yes but not enough for a significant chunk of the population to do. I live in what was once a thriving industrial city where the last factory closed down a couple of years ago. There is really very little left and what there is doesn't have much a chance. Even if you take the industrial aspect out of it you still have to bear in mind that most of the money in the economy originated from the city of London's status as a financial center. Now that it has become clear that people lending money they didn't have to people who couldn't repay it was not a clever thing to base our economy on we are in need of something to actually DO.

But I guess regarding you,re latter point we,re going to have to talk examples.

You certainly have a point RE the scholarships etc. you have in America, my department has a grand total of five scholarships available for masters students.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

We're not in the US. Would you find paying three times as much as you currently do an acceptable rise in costs?

An increase from 7k to 9k isn't a 300% increase. Look. You've learned something new and it cost you nothing.

 

[Laila]

Not a particularly high rate of pay; £22,000 a year and your expected to start paying back debts. And also the interest rate has increased so i'm not too sure what we are looking at here.
Its beside the point either way. Living costs for students alone are very expensive. To go on and ask students for additional money to go to University is a crime. These students will leave university inheriting large debts and its going to affect there ability to obtain loans - assuming they dont obtain any just to get by on day to day expenses.

My siblings who are in Uni are worried about this hike in prices.
I have tried to tell them that it doesn't affect them, the rates stay the same ... right?

 

[Laila]

An increase from 7k to 9k isn't a 300% increase. Look. You've learned something new and it cost you nothing.

It's an increase from around 3k to 9k

 

[Mensch]

Right wing thinking at work.. class warfare at its worst. The UK is turning more and more like the US and a 3rd world country where higher education is only for the rich.

That's totally false. What about these kids?



Also, read the book The Beautiful Tree by James Tooley.