Its worse than we thought: tuition fees to rise to £9,000

[Gardener]

You need to pick another country to talk about.

My goodness --that would sure reduce his post count in a hurry!

 

[PeteEU]

Red Dave! :mrgreen:

I imagine they would be the same since the UK does not discriminate between native students and European Union students as far as uni's are concerned (and i assume this is due to EU legislation) - although of course international (non-EU students) are treated seperately in regards to finance.

Each country has its own rules. But in principle yes, you can not discriminate between native and EU students. And it is EEC legislation, not EU since it is part of the non discrimination principle that has been in place since the start. But in the old days, cost plus language was a big barrier.

However you can demand the same payment or equivalent as local students plus language and academical requirements.

For example, the British can demand similar payment for foreign students and then it is up to said nations educational system if it will fork up the money or let the student pay his/her way. Lets say as a Dane I want to study something that does not exist as a course in Denmark, but does in the Uk.. Hotel Management for example. I could apply to said university with said course, under the same guidelines as a British student and get accepted. The British school would expect similar payment as a British student, but because I am a Dane I have another option. The Danish state will pay for any course/education abroad if said course/education does not exist in Denmark. Hence the Danish state would pay the cost at the British school. Had it been a course in economics at the LSE, then I would have to pay for it all myself.

Similarly, when a non Danish student wants to take a semester in Denmark (and many do), then they are offered a packaged from the institution of their choice, where cost of semester (to the school) plus housing costs are included.. since most schools provide housing for its non Danish students. Now where the non Danish students get the money to pay for this, is not the Danish systems problem...Americans have to pay upfront unless on a real exchange trip. Other nationalities have to pay whatever is agreed between Denmark and their respective nation... I believe Spain pays for the tuition but the UK does not.. or something like that. I use to help such exchange students back in the day.. was quite fun. Was fun to hear the American's complain over how expensive Copenhagen was (it is!), but then comment how cheap the tuition was.

Now it use to be attractive to go to the UK for a semester or whole degree, but with these changes I doubt it will be since the cost is considerable more.. but you never know.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

-- I imagine they would be the same since the UK does not discriminate between native students and European Union students as far as uni's are concerned (and i assume this is due to EU legislation) - although of course international (non-EU students) are treated seperately in regards to finance.

Wanna bet?

If you are Scottish and want to study in Scotland, there's no fees. If you wish to study in Scotland and you are an EU student.... there's no fees.





If you're English (who says the age old hatred has gone away) and wish to study in Scotland - you pay full fees.

Lovely eh?

 

[PeteEU]

Wanna bet?

If you are Scottish and want to study in Scotland, there's no fees. If you wish to study in Scotland and you are an EU student.... there's no fees.





If you're English (who says the age old hatred has gone away) and wish to study in Scotland - you pay full fees.

Lovely eh?

Boy England is bad at negotiating with Scotland then

 

[Andalublue]

Boy England is bad at negotiating with Scotland then

Or vice versa. Scottish students studying in England have to pay English fees. I'm not sure for how much longer Scotland will be able to afford their system, but good for them! It's the outrageously right-wing class politics of England that has decided to price the poor out of higher education. That Scotland refuses to do the same, but puts a protection in place that avoids them being flooded with English refugees, is entirely their good sense.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

--For example, the British can demand similar payment for foreign students and then it is up to said nations educational system if it will fork up the money or let the student pay his/her way. Lets say as a Dane I want to study something that does not exist as a course in Denmark, but does in the Uk.. Hotel Management for example. I could apply to said university with said course, under the same guidelines as a British student and get accepted. The British school would expect similar payment as a British student, but because I am a Dane I have another option. The Danish state will pay for any course/education abroad if said course/education does not exist in Denmark. Hence the Danish state would pay the cost at the British school. Had it been a course in economics at the LSE, then I would have to pay for it all myself.

Similarly, when a non Danish student wants to take a semester in Denmark (and many do), then they are offered a packaged from the institution of their choice, where cost of semester (to the school) plus housing costs are included.. since most schools provide housing for its non Danish students. Now where the non Danish students get the money to pay for this, is not the Danish systems problem...

There's options in the EU for students to study in other countries. Socrates enables students to take a semester in any other participating EU nation's university. All costs are paid for by the EU.

There's options for UK students to study in other countries. Erasmus enables students to take a semester in any other participating EU nation's university. All costs are paid for by the EU.

There's options for vocational students to study in other countries. Leonardo enables vocational students to take working placements in any other participating EU nation. All costs are paid for by the EU.

I and my students have benefitted from Leonardo over the last 6 years - I've taken students free to Finland, Slovakia, Cyprus and Ireland. There's placements in Bulgaria too but I never went on those programmes.

 

[Fiddytree]

Congrats.

But you dont get my point. The entrance barrier is far far higher in the US than it is in Denmark, and that will discourage people. By entrance barrier, I mean especially the cost element and social economic elements.

But aside from the fact that tuition costs are increasing, there is no widespread belief in demographers or sociologists that we are in any sort of crisis as a whole. We do have a significant problem with getting young African Americans and Hispanic Americans in post-secondary education, but these things are difficult to solve, and I admit, has been a significant issue for sociologists for decades. For the most part, however, we are pleased with how many are receiving post-secondary education in comparison with those in decades past. We are also mostly pleased with the state of secondary education quality. There are always going to be calls to improve the system with one form of reforms or another (eg. accreditation), but with policy and social questions, there is always going to be attention payed to what we can do next to make it better.

Perhaps I am just completely mystified about the level of horror you have about our post-secondary education attainments. I think we are doing fairly well. I know you have less than full amount of confidence in our government and its people, but sometimes I think you take it just a bit too far with the exaggeration.

I do not intend on commenting on any European post-secondary education system, which is why I have remained quiet.

 

[kaya'08]

Each country has its own rules. But in principle yes, you can not discriminate between native and EU students. And it is EEC legislation, not EU since it is part of the non discrimination principle that has been in place since the start. But in the old days, cost plus language was a big barrier.

EEC?

For example, the British can demand similar payment for foreign students and then it is up to said nations educational system if it will fork up the money or let the student pay his/her way. Lets say as a Dane I want to study something that does not exist as a course in Denmark, but does in the Uk.. Hotel Management for example. I could apply to said university with said course, under the same guidelines as a British student and get accepted. The British school would expect similar payment as a British student, but because I am a Dane I have another option. The Danish state will pay for any course/education abroad if said course/education does not exist in Denmark. Hence the Danish state would pay the cost at the British school. Had it been a course in economics at the LSE, then I would have to pay for it all myself.

But in terms of fee, a non-Briton EU citizen would be paying the same as a Briton and a non-EU citizen would be paying considerably more.
Also, you mean Denmark provides the LOAN right?

Now it use to be attractive to go to the UK for a semester or whole degree, but with these changes I doubt it will be since the cost is considerable more.. but you never know.

Considering the quality of British (and in particular Scottish) universities, i doubt it will have a major impact since the price rise isn't enough to make the UK "not worth it" as an academic destination - in my opinion anyway.

 

[kaya'08]

Wanna bet?

If you are Scottish and want to study in Scotland, there's no fees. If you wish to study in Scotland and you are an EU student.... there's no fees.





If you're English (who says the age old hatred has gone away) and wish to study in Scotland - you pay full fees.

Lovely eh?

Actually you just reminded me about that. I was going to apply to aberdeen but i would have had to pay for tuition fee's, being an English citizen and all.

But because i lived in Northern Cyprus long enough to be eligible for "Republic of Cyprus" citizenship, my parents wanted me to apply for it and then apply to Scotland that way.

Obviously, i refused.

 

[paris]

Wanna bet?

If you are Scottish and want to study in Scotland, there's no fees. If you wish to study in Scotland and you are an EU student.... there's no fees.





If you're English (who says the age old hatred has gone away) and wish to study in Scotland - you pay full fees.

Lovely eh?

Can't have English lamb in a Highland stew, one of the basics of stew art..

 

[bub]

I'd give it a look. The language requirement might be tricky for many Brits, but there are quite a few European unis that use English as their teaching language, I know several Scandinavian unis do.

I know an Australian-Italian who studied in Sweden, he said it was nearly free.

As for language, it depends on what you study but more and more courses are given in English, especially in Flanders, but I'm not sure you can already find a whole degree given in English

 

[PeteEU]

EEC?

Ya the rules are that old.. pre EU, when it was called the EEC.

But in terms of fee, a non-Briton EU citizen would be paying the same as a Briton and a non-EU citizen would be paying considerably more.
Also, you mean Denmark provides the LOAN right?

No.. Denmark would pay the tuition... no loans involved. You can take out a loan though through the state so that you can supplement the monthly state benefit you get.

Considering the quality of British (and in particular Scottish) universities, i doubt it will have a major impact since the price rise isn't enough to make the UK "not worth it" as an academic destination - in my opinion anyway.

Overrated in many ways.. an education from a Danish, Swedish, Spanish and so on University is just as good if not better. Often the major difference is elitism.....you are seen have a "better" education if it says Oxford, Harvard and so on, than Copenhagen Business School or something similar.. in reality, not so much.

Only issue would be from those outside the EU, from places like India and so on.. but then again, the cost is often not the big issue for them.

 

[FederalRepublic]

And that means they should not have the chance in the first place?

By putting an "entrance barrier", where it is economical or social, you discourage the least well off in even attempting to better themselves. The only real entrance barrier that should be is academical, not financial. Else a higher education is only for the rich even though there may be token programs to help the less well off get a higher education. Point is it is not defacto open for all regardless of financial situation.

Pete, nobody put the "entrance barrier" there. It's there by nature. People work for a living and teaching is work. You make it sound like the "barrier" is insurmountable, in the face of evidence that it's not. You can argue that college shouldn't be hard work, but if you really believe that, your education is worthless.

 

[PeteEU]

But aside from the fact that tuition costs are increasing, there is no widespread belief in demographers or sociologists that we are in any sort of crisis as a whole. We do have a significant problem with getting young African Americans and Hispanic Americans in post-secondary education, but these things are difficult to solve, and I admit, has been a significant issue for sociologists for decades. For the most part, however, we are pleased with how many are receiving post-secondary education in comparison with those in decades past. We are also mostly pleased with the state of secondary education quality. There are always going to be calls to improve the system with one form of reforms or another (eg. accreditation), but with policy and social questions, there is always going to be attention payed to what we can do next to make it better.

Perhaps I am just completely mystified about the level of horror you have about our post-secondary education attainments. I think we are doing fairly well. I know you have less than full amount of confidence in our government and its people, but sometimes I think you take it just a bit too far with the exaggeration.

I do not intend on commenting on any European post-secondary education system, which is why I have remained quiet.

A very well thought out response sir.. kudos.. and I agree somewhat.

My only point was that the cost of education is a barrier in it self, especially for those not well off REGARDLESS of the programs to either subsidies or give loans to said persons. Hence as you said, you have socio-economic problems with certain minorities, which alone causes problems getting them into a post secondary education system, but here is where my point comes in.. if the cost barrier was not there in any way, then that problem would be much less than it is now... why should a black-American from the projects better himself education wise and aspire to going to college, if he knows that he has to jump through far more hoops than someone that has money?

Now if they were equal, then it might.. just might aspire more minorities to seek higher education instead of the stereotype life style. And that is where a free education system financed via the tax system has proven beneficial in many European countries.

 

[PeteEU]

Pete, nobody put the "entrance barrier" there. It's there by nature. People work for a living and teaching is work. You make it sound like the "barrier" is insurmountable, in the face of evidence that it's not. You can argue that college shouldn't be hard work, but if you really believe that, your education is worthless.

And you dont understand what I mean. Read my above response to Fiddytree.

 

[FederalRepublic]

Similarly, when a non Danish student wants to take a semester in Denmark (and many do), then they are offered a packaged from the institution of their choice, where cost of semester (to the school) plus housing costs are included.. since most schools provide housing for its non Danish students. Now where the non Danish students get the money to pay for this, is not the Danish systems problem...

Why would you erect barriers?

By putting an "entrance barrier", where it is economical or social, you discourage the least well off in even attempting to better themselves. The only real entrance barrier that should be is academical, not financial. Else a higher education is only for the rich even though there may be token programs to help the less well off get a higher education. Point is it is not defacto open for all regardless of financial situation.

Sorry, couldn't resist the temptation.

 

[FederalRepublic]

A very well thought out response sir.. kudos.. and I agree somewhat.

My only point was that the cost of education is a barrier in it self, especially for those not well off REGARDLESS of the programs to either subsidies or give loans to said persons. Hence as you said, you have socio-economic problems with certain minorities, which alone causes problems getting them into a post secondary education system, but here is where my point comes in.. if the cost barrier was not there in any way, then that problem would be much less than it is now... why should a black-American from the projects better himself education wise and aspire to going to college, if he knows that he has to jump through far more hoops than someone that has money?

Now if they were equal, then it might.. just might aspire more minorities to seek higher education instead of the stereotype life style. And that is where a free education system financed via the tax system has proven beneficial in many European countries.

So your argument is that since there is a culture in many minority communities that discourages college attendance, making it free to them would improve that culture? I'm not buying it.

 

[kaya'08]

No.. Denmark would pay the tuition... no loans involved. You can take out a loan though through the state so that you can supplement the monthly state benefit you get.

So your telling me, if your Danish, and you want to study abroad, tuition is free?

Overrated in many ways.. an education from a Danish, Swedish, Spanish and so on University is just as good if not better. Often the major difference is elitism.....you are seen have a "better" education if it says Oxford, Harvard and so on, than Copenhagen Business School or something similar.. in reality, not so much.

Only issue would be from those outside the EU, from places like India and so on.. but then again, the cost is often not the big issue for them.

Hmm i would have to look into it more before i can comment on that.

 

[PeteEU]

So your telling me, if your Danish, and you want to study abroad, tuition is free?

if the course/education is not available in Denmark yes. Else you have to pay yourself.

Hmm i would have to look into it more before i can comment on that.

The education standards are pretty much the same, both here and in the US. Same stuff you learn.... heck often from the same bloody text books. All text books at the Copenhagen Business School are American pretty much.

 

[PeteEU]

So your argument is that since there is a culture in many minority communities that discourages college attendance, making it free to them would improve that culture? I'm not buying it.

No, my argument is that it is another excuse for said minority communities to discourage its young to do better. And frankly it is a valid excuse, especially if the information about grants and so on is either with held or not promoted. Having the daunting prospect of 10s of thousands of dollars in tuition fees to deal with can put anyone off. It is the same principle with healthcare.. the fact that insurance is expensive or/and restrictive or the non insurance cost is huge for even basic check ups and preventive healthcare, will mean people will put off going to the doctor until it is pretty much too late. Cost is a huge barrier in many aspects of life, and a country/people have to asses if the cost should be removed from the equation so that the over all population can benefit more for said aspect of life.

 

[PeteEU]

Why would you erect barriers?

Sorry if we dont pay for your students as well as ours.. but that is a principle that I think is a good one

Sorry, couldn't resist the temptation.

If it had been a valid thing then sure.. but it aint. Remember non-Danish students means people from other countries.. not minorities living in country.. they have the same access and rights as Danish students.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

So your telling me, if your Danish, and you want to study abroad, tuition is free?

Same thing happens for Swedish and Norweigian students - their Govt pays their costs and fees if they want to study a course not available in thier home country.

 

[VanceMack]

Maybe Im missing something (like the knee-jerk tendency to automatically make this a class warfare issue) but it DOES appear that the proposal ALLOWS universities to raise fees...it doesnt MANDATE that they raise fees. And those universities that DO raise fees by LAW must aggressively pursue and create programs SPECIFICALLY FOR underprivileged individuals. Of course...thats just what is in that article as well as two others...

 

[FederalRepublic]

No, my argument is that it is another excuse for said minority communities to discourage its young to do better. And frankly it is a valid excuse, especially if the information about grants and so on is either with held or not promoted. Having the daunting prospect of 10s of thousands of dollars in tuition fees to deal with can put anyone off. It is the same principle with healthcare.. the fact that insurance is expensive or/and restrictive or the non insurance cost is huge for even basic check ups and preventive healthcare, will mean people will put off going to the doctor until it is pretty much too late. Cost is a huge barrier in many aspects of life, and a country/people have to asses if the cost should be removed from the equation so that the over all population can benefit more for said aspect of life.

You're correct that cost is a barrier in many aspects of life. It always has been and always will be. Anything of value has a cost associated with it. Call it the opinion of an American vs a European socialist, but I'd rather see the costs directly rather than having them hidden.

I could have had free health care and free education, but based on your tax rate compared to mine, your "free" health care and "free" education are much more expensive than mine.

 

[FederalRepublic]

Sorry if we dont pay for your students as well as ours.. but that is a principle that I think is a good one



If it had been a valid thing then sure.. but it aint. Remember non-Danish students means people from other countries.. not minorities living in country.. they have the same access and rights as Danish students.

I agree with you that the principle is a good one, but it doesn't fit with your principles of removing cost barriers for the poor. It's a practical limitation, like the low entrance barrier that exists in the States.