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Its worse than we thought: tuition fees to rise to £9,000

kaya'08

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Students in universities in England face tuition fees of up to £9,000 per year, as the government confirmed plans for higher education.

Fees will rise to £6,000 - with an upper tier of £9,000, if universities ensure access for poorer students.

Universities Minister David Willetts told MPs this was a "good deal for students and universities".

I understand the sensitivities regarding University funding in this age of austerity, but it seems that our worse nightmares have already materialized and are much worse than initially feared (a £7,000 rise). Rather than cutting down on Trident citizens will have to pay for government deficit by compromising the lives of their children and the lives of many generations of Britons to come.
This policy is a major shortfall in the coalition government and highlights a weakness in the Lib dem leadership.

BBC News - Students face tuition fees rising to £9,000
 
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PeteEU

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Right wing thinking at work.. class warfare at its worst. The UK is turning more and more like the US and a 3rd world country where higher education is only for the rich.
 

kaya'08

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Right wing thinking at work.. class warfare at its worst. The UK is turning more and more like the US and a 3rd world country where higher education is only for the rich.

I understand the need for cuts and greately support the Spending Review as a much needed reality check, but this is quiet like what you said it is - class warfare and higher class elitism.
 

PeteEU

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I understand the need for cuts and greately support the Spending Review as a much needed reality check, but this is quiet like what you said it is - class warfare and higher class elitism.

So do I. However the conservatives have shown their true face with this and the very fact that all their "cuts" hit the lower classes (less well off) far harder than anyone else. The only thing I cant really understand (and it must be the lib dems) is why the Cons gutted the military and justice departments. Either it is to fool us all or the UK economy is far far worse than anyone knows.
 

kaya'08

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So do I. However the conservatives have shown their true face with this and the very fact that all their "cuts" hit the lower classes (less well off) far harder than anyone else.

I seriously doubt any spending cut in the history of spending cuts have actually not affected the lower classes the most. What would seem like a pinch to the upper classes is a blow to the lower classes. Considering the enormous size of the UK deficit i would say targeting the lower classes is unavoidable and thus in the end, the poorer get poorer but the richer just have less money in their pockets.

But in the grand scheme of things i really do think all classes, with the exception of this tragic coalition policy on university fee's, have been hurt equally - its just going to affect the lower classes much more than the upper classes. For example, the 20% VAT rise could have easily been less dramatic if the coalition had decided to raise taxes on the rich and distribute the money gap. Just like in every austerity, the lower classes loose.

By withdrawing substantial fiscal support for universities, the chances for the lower classes to make something of themselves have been significantly reduced - almost as though the government has denied the lower classes access to knowledge, intellect and success. Sort of reminds me of the Victorian ages when the higher classes thrived by keeping the lower classes derived of knowledge and ignorant.

Its a dramatic comparison but it certainly creates that class divide and many children will be shattered by this decision.

The only thing I cant really understand (and it must be the lib dems) is why the Cons gutted the military and justice departments. Either it is to fool us all or the UK economy is far far worse than anyone knows.

There was talk even before the spending review that £81 billion may not be enough if the UK does not meet its growth targets (and its growth has outgrown its targets). The risk is there however and it's not a secret.
 
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PeteEU

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I seriously doubt any spending cut in the history of spending cuts have actually not affected the lower classes the most. What would seem like a pinch to the upper classes is a blow to the lower classes. Considering the enormous size of the UK deficit i would say targeting the lower classes is unavoidable and thus in the end, the poorer get poorer but the richer just have less money in their pockets.

But in the grand scheme of things i really do think all classes, with the exception of this tragic coalition policy on university fee's, have been hurt equally - its just going to affect the lower classes much more than the upper classes. For example, the 20% VAT rise could have easily been less dramatic if the coalition had decided to raise taxes on the rich and distribute the money gap. Just like in every austerity, the lower classes loose.

By withdrawing substantial fiscal support for universities, the chances for the lower classes to make something of themselves have been significantly reduced - almost as though the government has denied the lower classes access to knowledge, intellect and success. Sort of reminds me of the Victorian ages when the higher classes thrived by keeping the lower classes derived of knowledge and ignorant.

Its a dramatic comparison but it certainly creates that class divide and many children will be shattered by this decision.

I agree. Case in point. My fathers generation (born 1937) grew up during the war, and the after effects of the war. There was a clear class gap in Denmark, just as there is in the UK now. However the governments since the war have slowly but surely gone from a higher education only being possible for the well off, to having a system where all higher education is free (not books and housing), plus you get for 5 years a monthly supplement that you can live off if you dont party too much. This has meant that since WW2, where there was an upper class, small middle class and large under class.. Danish society has changed dramatically. Now days the "lower class" is very small, the middle class huge and the upper class small. Denmark has one of the best income equality records in the world and that is down to our education system if you ask me.

My fathers father was a welder at the big ship yard in Copenhagen. He had a basic education, but like most from his "class", he was put in an apprenticeship at an early age. Now my father went the same way because he was from the lower classes. But because of the change in laws, funding and so on, after his apprenticeship as a bricklayer he went to university and became a civil engineer, the first person in our family ever to get a higher education (our family goes back 500+ years). This is not a unique story in Denmark by any means.

Now days, a child in Denmark can choose whatever he or she wants to do. As long as he or she has the grades then you can be whatever your heart desires... does not matter if you father earns millions or minimal wage. I have heard stories of rich kids becoming bricklayers and teachers, and inner city kids becoming doctors and engineers. Only time class matters in Denmark now days is with the royals and even here it dont matter that much. The Queen goes shopping on the streets of Copenhagen for example..

There was talk even before the spending review that £81 billion may not be enough if the UK does not meet its growth targets (and its growth has outgrown its targets). The risk is there however and it's not a secret.

Tax the bankers more imo. :)
 
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It all justs depends on the system. For example, if students have to pay the 9,000 uk pounds upfront then it is likely to become a barrier to students from lower income households. However, if the students have to repay their debts once in the workforce, I really don't see how unfair it is.

I am studying law in Australia, and I am a full fee student. In reality this means I have debt of $AUS 83,000 plus my undergraduate degree in science. A total that is going to be near $100,000 I don't have to pay this back until I start working and the actual rate of repayment is quite fair. Unlike the US system, this debt is administered by the Australian Tax Office, not a private organisation.

Secondly, I hate to break it to people, but universities was never meant to be an open free-for all for everyone. At the end of the day universities are the upper echelon of intellectual inquiry. People from all walks of life should have access to university and this may require some sort of deferred payment system. But merely pushing more students into the system moves universities away from their core function of intellectual and scientific enquiry into the realm of employment filter. Aka, students are only taught information so as to generate a degree, which in turn becomes a filter for employment.

To put my comments in context. Since the expansion of university places in all major developed western countries, an undergraduate degree in many cases is no longer sufficient for employment. But rather honours, masters or a PhD may be necessary. In addition, during this time many academics have faced pressures getting research funds, probably due to this tension between funding for places v research.

My brother is a carpenter, one day I will be a lawyer. He was good with his hands and I am more nerdy. Both of us will be able to make a reasonable living. My concern is that too many people see universities as some sort of way to eleviate poverty or move everyone into the middle class. In individual cases this may be possible, as described by Pete EU. However to assume that universities can move everyone out of the working class into white colar jobs, ignores funding limitations and the possible consequences of universities losing their 'elite' intellectual focus.

Put simply, I believe that if society wants to receive the benefits from universities, then they need to be elite in a sort of merit based way. And that means filtering out people. I know that is a **** proposition, but if people want vocational degrees then they are more then welcome to attend technical colleges. Granted fees are expensive, but so long as they are not required upfront, but rather can be deferred in a manner akin to Australian FEE-HELP/CSP system, then I don't understand where the concern is about.
 

DrunkenAsparagus

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(looks at massive tuition fee for his US college of choice) Ah $15,000, boohoo.
 
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DrunkenAsparagus

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The pound is worth a far bit more then the dollar

I know, 9,000 pounds is about equal to $15,000. The price of university for UK citizens could be 3Xs what is, and it would still be far cheaper than US ones.
 
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digsbe

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I pay like $21,000 a year just in tuition to go to school. I wish I could be like the Brits.
 

Lord Tammerlain

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I know, 9,000 pounds is about equal to $15,000. The price of university for UK citizens could be 3Xs what is, and it would still be far cheaper than US ones.

My mistake I thought you posted what you had to pay
 

Manc Skipper

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To put some perspective on this, the current maximum in England and Wales is £3,200. Tripling the bill overnight by cutting all public funding support is drastic.
One of many ironies is that those doing this are largely upper/middle class people who benefited from a free university education, despite many of their parents having been in a position to afford to pay the bill.
 

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9,000!

Oh my god.
We have 4 more years of this ****ing coalition! **** Lib Dems

And well, I expected nothing less than shafting the poor from Conservatives so at least they live up to their name :shrug:

And what pisses me off more than anything else
IS WHY THE **** ISN'T SCOTLAND PAYING THIS?!
Can we just kick them out of the union already?
English taxpayer money goes to funding Scotland's FREE University and Wales gets to keep it at the current but England gets a ****ing hike and English students is metaphorically raped in the butt?
 
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Harry Guerrilla

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Right wing thinking at work.. class warfare at its worst. The UK is turning more and more like the US and a 3rd world country where higher education is only for the rich.

Pete, we pay for poor kids to go to college, largely free with almost no strings attached.
Strings being that, you have to make passing grades and you can't stay in college (forever) on the taxpayers dime.

You need to pick another country to talk about.
 

Fiddytree

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Right wing thinking at work.. class warfare at its worst. The UK is turning more and more like the US and a 3rd world country where higher education is only for the rich.

We are doing just fine here, Pete.
 
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9,000!

Oh my god.
We have 4 more years of this ****ing coalition! **** Lib Dems

And well, I expected nothing less than shafting the poor from Conservatives so at least they live up to their name :shrug:

And what pisses me off more than anything else
IS WHY THE **** ISN'T SCOTLAND PAYING THIS?!
Can we just kick them out of the union already?
English taxpayer money goes to funding Scotland's FREE University and Wales gets to keep it at the current but England gets a ****ing hike and English students is metaphorically raped in the butt?

No Scottish education scroungers in exchange for no North Sea Oil? ;)

Or alternately move to Scotland and study there.
 
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PeteEU

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Pete, we pay for poor kids to go to college, largely free with almost no strings attached.
Strings being that, you have to make passing grades and you can't stay in college (forever) on the taxpayers dime.

You need to pick another country to talk about.

Yea you do, and so what? It is "largely free" as you state, and said kids still have to jump through hoops other than having the grades to get access to said college institutions. This includes social issues like crime. Tell me what is the chance for an inner city kid getting into a good college in the US with average grades or better?
 

PeteEU

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We are doing just fine here, Pete.

Yea if your white and have money.. then you doing just fine. Class warfare is ripe in the US but most white American's are blind to it or/and in denial.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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Yea you do, and so what? It is "largely free" as you state, and said kids still have to jump through hoops other than having the grades to get access to said college institutions. This includes social issues like crime. Tell me what is the chance for an inner city kid getting into a good college in the US with average grades or better?

What are you talking about? :confused:

It covers anyone to go to school at a state college.

You don't even have to graduate high school to get the Pell grant.
You do eventually have to get a GED to attend university and you do have to maintain a 2.0 in order to keep your grant.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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Yea if your white and have money.. then you doing just fine. Class warfare is ripe in the US but most white American's are blind to it or/and in denial.

Dude, you don't know what you're talking about, at all.

Not only do we have federal funding for college students, but most individual states have their own university grant programs, that cover all the expenses of state schools.
 

kaya'08

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My brother is a carpenter, one day I will be a lawyer. He was good with his hands and I am more nerdy. Both of us will be able to make a reasonable living. My concern is that too many people see universities as some sort of way to eleviate poverty or move everyone into the middle class. In individual cases this may be possible, as described by Pete EU. However to assume that universities can move everyone out of the working class into white colar jobs, ignores funding limitations and the possible consequences of universities losing their 'elite' intellectual focus.

Hopefully ill be preparing for my law degree a year from now!
 

Djoop

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Dude, you don't know what you're talking about, at all.

Not only do we have federal funding for college students, but most individual states have their own university grant programs, that cover all the expenses of state schools.
In Europe minorities can become mayor or even president. Like Slovakije who had his first black mayor the other week. We had black presidents for years. We have more women in key positions...

Actually that's all not true, there are a lot of misconceptions about the US in Europe but we're hypocrite enough to ignore annoying facts.
 

Infinite Chaos

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-- the chances for the lower classes to make something of themselves have been significantly reduced - almost as though the government has denied the lower classes access to knowledge, intellect and success. Sort of reminds me of the Victorian ages when the higher classes thrived by keeping the lower classes derived of knowledge and ignorant.

Its a dramatic comparison but it certainly creates that class divide and many children will be shattered by this decision --

people from poor backgrounds will be discouraged only if the bad misinformation continues to swamp what the system actually does - i.e. you only pay if you acheive a high rate of pay and even then, you only pay a small monthly amount from your salary.
 

Catz Part Deux

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I understand the sensitivities regarding University funding in this age of austerity, but it seems that our worse nightmares have already materialized and are much worse than initially feared (a £7,000 rise). Rather than cutting down on Trident citizens will have to pay for government deficit by compromising the lives of their children and the lives of many generations of Britons to come.
This policy is a major shortfall in the coalition government and highlights a weakness in the Lib dem leadership.

BBC News - Students face tuition fees rising to £9,000

Do you have any idea how ridiculously inexpensive that is in U.S. terms?
 
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