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Al-Zahar: Let Hamas fire rockets from West Bank

The first "real effort" well aren't you a peach? I am not sure what the real point of this is actually, because you can point to countless countries that do not go to the most extreme measure first in order to neutralize a threat.
Cute, but the rockets threat from the Gaza Strip was an active threat for over 8 years before Cast Lead has been initiated.
To suggest that Israel has used the most extreme method of self-defense to neutralize the rockets threat before it has tried any other option is bizarre and ridiculous, especially since even Cast Lead itself was not the "most extreme measure" Israel could use, considering that the IAF has only utilized 1.9% of its capabilities in this operation.
Spare us the hard work and just avoid such absurd statements in the future.
 
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You are saying Israel is better than the rest of the world so I would say without question the burden is on you to prove why Israel is so much better than everyone else. Please prove why all us lesser lifeforms as so inferior to your greatness
Correction. It was you who originally put forth the silly proposition that the IDF had lower battle standards than other modern militaries, which you have yet to demonstrate.

I've already embarrassed this position with a cursory look at Grozny, Fallujah, and the Gulf War. I can easily fill up many pages with similar examples. Your choice.
 
Cute, but the rockets threat from the Gaza Strip was an active threat for over 8 years before Cast Lead has been initiated.
To suggest that Israel has used the most extreme method of self-defense to neutralize the rockets threat before it has tried any other option is bizarre and ridiculous, especially since even Cast Lead itself was not the "most extreme measure" Israel could use, considering that the IAF has only utilized 1.9% of its capabilities in this operation.

I did not say Israel did, but rather that not doing so is not the same as not making an effort. Ido was making it sound like Israel sat patiently on its hands while rockets were being fired when it was in fact engaging in operation after operation in Gaza before and after the withdrawal. Now it seems not doing enough to succeed is the same as doing nothing, at least when you want to make Israel sound like a saintly country.

Correction. It was you who originally put forth the silly proposition that the IDF had lower battle standards than other modern militaries, which you have yet to demonstrate.

I only said that after the claim was made that Israel is "way better than the rest of the world" and that is plain as day if you bother checking the thread.
 
I did not say Israel did, but rather that not doing so is not the same as not making an effort. Ido was making it sound like Israel sat patiently on its hands while rockets were being fired when it was in fact engaging in operation after operation in Gaza before and after the withdrawal. Now it seems not doing enough to succeed is the same as doing nothing, at least when you want to make Israel sound like a saintly country.
Israel has never before December 2008 engaged in an operation such as Cast Lead. It was a massive operation with a clear target and it only came 8 years after the rockets.
Israel has indeed expressed restraint on that subject, more restraint than any other country in this world would have, combined.
 
And the NEXT sentence in your link:

"Israel states that Gaza is no longer occupied, inasmuch as Israel does not exercise effective control or authority over any land or institutions in the Gaza Strip.[19][20] Foreign Affairs Minister of Israel Tzipi Livni stated in January, 2008: “Israel got out of Gaza. It dismantled its settlements there. No Israeli soldiers were left there after the disengagement.”[21]"

Not one israeli is inside Gaza, sorry charlie - there is no occupation.

Reading comprehension fail?

There's a reason I said "Everyone, but Israel".

"The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised."

Who currently exercises authority over Gaza's airspace, Gaza's territorial waters, and Gaza's land borders?

Better luck next time.
 
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:doh:doh:doh

Reading comprehension fail?
It was quite clear that we were speaking about the Gaza Strip, so what the hell are you citing the Lebanon war for?
If you've misunderstood (as if you could) my words and took it as if I was referring to every operation Israel was engaging in in the past, you could just as well cite the 67' war.

Yeah, that's clearly what you said...:

Apocalypse said:
Israel has never before December 2008 engaged in an operation such as Cast Lead.

:roll:
 
Reading comprehension fail?

There's a reason I said "Everyone, but Israel".

"The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised."

Who currently exercises authority over Gaza's airspace, Gaza's territorial waters, and Gaza's land borders?

Better luck next time.

How many israelis are in gaza? Thought so. Cannot occupy a country you aren't physically in.

While you're counting, come up with a clever reason why jews and christians aren't allowed to live in gaza, either...
 
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Yeah, that's clearly what you said...:



:roll:

Yes, which is why you've misunderstood this as someone who's just jumped into the thread and has read this specific post, but if you'll look at the whole discussion you'd find out that we were speaking about the Gaza Strip and reactions to rocket fire from the Gaza Strip.
It couldn't get more obvious than that, truly.
 
How many israelis are in gaza? Thought so. Cannot occupy a country you aren't physically in.
Says who? That is merely your opinion on that matter, and it is completely devoid of any proper legal interpretation.
While you're counting, come up with a clever reason why jews and christians aren't allowed to live in gaza, either...
[/quote]
There's over 3,000 Christians in Gaza. If any are not being let in, or out, it's because the Occupying Power refuses them entry.
 
Israel has never before December 2008 engaged in an operation such as Cast Lead. It was a massive operation with a clear target and it only came 8 years after the rockets.
Israel has indeed expressed restraint on that subject, more restraint than any other country in this world would have, combined.

I am seriously wondering if there is some sort of "Guide to Israeli Exceptionalist Debating" where these points are included, because it is astonishing how people are repeating the same points. This is sort of eerie, almost like you're all one person.

Here's a list of some major military operations in Gaza before Cast Lead:

Operation Rainbow (2004) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Operation Days of Penitence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
2006 Israel
Operation Autumn Clouds (2006) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Operation Hot Winter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Says who? That is merely your opinion on that matter, and it is completely devoid of any proper legal interpretation.
No it's not his "mere opinion". It's definition.
Occupied means .. well.. Occupied.
One could call Gaza "blockaded" if not very effectively.
One could call it "somewhat controlled", but only the UN or "int'l community" could bizarrely call a land with no one else in it.. "Occupied".

Of course, even in the West Bank, the land is only 'Disputed', but at least it's debatable in that case.

There's over 3,000 Christians in Gaza. If any are not being let in, or out, it's because the Occupying Power refuses them entry.
"Over 3000"!
You mean Shrunk to a Pitiful few thousand out of 1.5 Million Gazans.
Probably More than halved since just since hamas tookover 3 years ago.
Like so many other Islamic/Islamist countries.. Christians are down to token populations.
 
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Moderator's Warning:
Degreez (Message #108), you have been banned from this thread. The member clarified his position in Message #107. By ignoring his clarification that he was only referring to the Gaza Strip, you were baiting. Any further posting in this thread will result in 5-point infractions for each posted message.
 
Yeah, that's clearly what you said...:



:roll:

Its just sad to see that instead of making real arguments and comment to the point, you guys just hand on sentence syntax. We were discussing Gaza, what does Lebanon has to do with anything.
Same goes for Demon, we were discussing several conflicts in the world yet he inssists I mean Israel is better then the whole world and even added the word world which I never used in this syntax.

I think its pathetic but hey, whatever rocks your boat, you got us there.
 
I am seriously wondering if there is some sort of "Guide to Israeli Exceptionalist Debating" where these points are included, because it is astonishing how people are repeating the same points. This is sort of eerie, almost like you're all one person.

Here's a list of some major military operations in Gaza before Cast Lead:

Operation Rainbow (2004) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Operation Days of Penitence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
2006 Israel
Operation Autumn Clouds (2006) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Operation Hot Winter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In neither of them Israel entered with ground troops to the strip if you exclude Beit Hanoon - this is not an effort to enliminate the threat, its just showing off abit of muscles so the people of Sderot won't see the Israeli goverment as the impotent it is.
 
The issue is you just said the "rules of engagement" without clarifying what they are or why they are better than those of other countries. I looked and found this, though it is from a few years ago: YouTube - Documentary: "Lethal Ambiguity" - Rules of Engagement in the IDF..

The Rules of engagement as described in this video (1:28) is pretty accurate only in some areas you cannot open fire at all in the arrest procedure , though from (2:34) its missleading, on many cases you are not allowed to open fire to the center mass, basically as I said before you can only open fire to the center mass if your life is under threat meaning the subject has both a capability and a meaning to hurt you or your comrads - for example someone holding a molotov cocktail may be shot only before he throws the bottle, if he threw the bottle and few friends of yours caught flame but he has nothing in his hands now, you may only shoot his legs inorder to stop him.
 
I am seriously wondering if there is some sort of "Guide to Israeli Exceptionalist Debating" where these points are included, because it is astonishing how people are repeating the same points. This is sort of eerie, almost like you're all one person.

Here's a list of some major military operations in Gaza before Cast Lead:

Operation Rainbow (2004) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Operation Days of Penitence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
2006 Israel
Operation Autumn Clouds (2006) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Operation Hot Winter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Once more, I didn't say Israel has not engaged in operations in the Gaza Strip before December 2008.
I'll repeat myself, Israel has, before December 2008, never engaged in an operation such as Cast Lead in the Gaza Strip.
The operations you've listed do not get near Cast Lead. None of those operations were involving as many bombs and weapons as Cast Lead did, and they're not at the same league with it.
Cast lead was the first real effort against the rockets in the Gaza Strip, that has targeted every and each method the terrorirsts were using to get the rockets and launch them.
 
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I am seriously wondering if there is some sort of "Guide to Israeli Exceptionalist Debating" where these points are included, because it is astonishing how people are repeating the same points. This is sort of eerie, almost like you're all one person.

I believe there is. Some time ago I came upon some material which was booklets for US pro Israelis on how to win people over.

I also could not believe my ears when a member of the Sun Newspaper on Question Time started springing forth with all the classic arguments we hear here as if he had learnt them rather than anything he had worked out for himself. It was very creepy.
 
I believe there is. Some time ago I came upon some material which was booklets for US pro Israelis on how to win people over.

I also could not believe my ears when a member of the Sun Newspaper on Question Time started springing forth with all the classic arguments we hear here as if he had learnt them rather than anything he had worked out for himself. It was very creepy.

Yeah, it's called sticking to history and reality, and usually it comes in only one version, which is why you're all so surprised when you hear the tuth more than one time.
 
Yeah, it's called sticking to history and reality, and usually it comes in only one version, which is why you're all so surprised when you hear the tuth more than one time.

No Apocalypse, it is something different and something I find very worrying. It is very easy to know when someone is talking from their own investigation and understanding. What the man from the Sun said and the way he said it, was not his own, did not belong to him. As such it is not honest debate but nearer an attempt at brainwashing.

Here is a link concerning the instructions. The Israel Project’s Secret Hasbara Handbook Exposed | Tikun Olam-
 
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No Apocalypse, it is something different and something I find very worrying. It is very easy to know when someone is talking from their own investigation and understanding. What the man from the Sun said and the way he said it, was not his own, did not belong to him. As such it is not honest debate but nearer an attempt at brainwashing.

Here is a link concerning the instructions. The Israel Project’s Secret Hasbara Handbook Exposed | Tikun Olam-

This article is ridiculous, and unless you point at the Sun's article I won't be able to even debate about it.
It's not a secret that Israel engages in further explanation than other nations due to the huge demonization campaign waged against it, and yes it does answer frequent questions that you can see floating around forum boards in the internet, but from there to brainwashing there is a long long way.
After all, it's not like the info given is even false, so I don't see where the problem is.
 
This article is ridiculous,

I disagree. I'm not sure whether I also found another one but I know when I read that and possibly another one I though, hmm, yes, this is indeed how people appear to be responding on the forum.

and unless you point at the Sun's article I won't be able to even debate about it.
It's not a secret that Israel engages in further explanation than other nations due to the huge demonization campaign waged against it, and yes it does answer frequent questions that you can see floating around forum boards in the internet, but from there to brainwashing there is a long long way.
After all, it's not like the info given is even false, so I don't see where the problem is.

He had either been reading this board or he got the information packaged in the same way as people have presented it on the board. I did for a minute wonder if he was possibly MBig. However as it was a tv show rather than an article in the sun, I am afraid I cannot give you the link.


As to whether information given is false. Very difficult one to answer. Each side will present it's situation in the way they believe will give them the best chance of receiving approval. Usually the truth is somewhere in the middle. You can take a bit of truth and say something which is not actually true. That is what Marx meant when he said 'ideologies turn reality upside down'


We were discussing the flotilla so what he said was not really appropriate to the situation. Propaganda leads to brainwashing. Organised propaganda by people who are allegedly speaking their own minds is concerning, if that is the case as I believe it may be.
 
I disagree. I'm not sure whether I also found another one but I know when I read that and possibly another one I though, hmm, yes, this is indeed how people appear to be responding on the forum.
And I disagree with that, the article's website seems to be one of the many brainwashing anti-Israeli sites, the author seems to be talking about a propaganda war between the "Israeli lobby" and his cult.
He had either been reading this board or he got the information packaged in the same way as people have presented it on the board. I did for a minute wonder if he was possibly MBig. However as it was a tv show rather than an article in the sun, I am afraid I cannot give you the link.
If I can't witness the man's words then how am I supposed to even debate about them?
Why were you even making this claim if you knew you wouldn't be able to refer to it?
As to whether information given is false. Very difficult one to answer. Each side will present it's situation in the way they believe will give them the best chance of receiving approval. Usually the truth is somewhere in the middle. You can take a bit of truth and say something which is not actually true. That is what Marx meant when he said 'ideologies turn reality upside down'
Marx was an ideologist.
We were discussing the flotilla so what he said was not really appropriate to the situation. Propaganda leads to brainwashing. Organised propaganda by people who are allegedly speaking their own minds is concerning, if that is the case as I believe it may be.
Every country is engaged in "explanation", trying to create a better PR reality.
No state on this planet is having a demonization campaign waged against it, as big as the one waged against Israel.
To call the Israeli government's efforts to explain its country's actions, in the present and the past, "an organized propaganda" is ridiculous, because that term would just as well fit a prime minister answering to the questions of his country's citizens in a press conference.
 
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And I disagree with that, the article's website seems to be one of the many brainwashing anti-Israeli sites, the author seems to be talking about a propaganda war between the "Israeli lobby" and his cult.

I think in this instance it is talking about a booklet provided to help pro Israel's win their argument. Going back to your previous post

It's not a secret that Israel engages in further explanation than other nations due to the huge demonization campaign waged against it, and yes it does answer frequent questions that you can see floating around forum boards in the internet, but from there to brainwashing there is a long long way.

There certainly are rumours that a lot of the people you meet supporting Israel on the net are not ordinarly Israeli's but rather people whose job it is to do this.

If I can't witness the man's words then how am I supposed to even debate about them?

I dare say you can't but whether that would make any difference if you saw them is small. You have seen them said countless times here, in exactly the same way. That was my point and it was in answer to something Deamon of Light said not to yourself.

Why were you even making this claim if you knew you wouldn't be able to refer to it?

As I said above it was in response to something Deamon of Light said. I was just saying what I exerienced on question time and what I thought about it. I am pretty sure you will know this sort of thing goes on. It is a new thing however for it to be happening in the UK.

Marx was an ideologist.

maybe but he was also a very good critique of society and 'Ideologies turn reality upside down' was one of his best insights.

Every country is engaged in "explanation", trying to create a better PR reality.

Of course but we expect that to be presented by them when they are trying to create their case. We then are aware that many people from that country will follow that propaganda and believe it is the case and probably all of us will do this to some extent unless we have the opportunity to properly study it in an open environment.

However it is not usual for people of my country to present propaganda from another country. To come to an informed opinion is completely acceptable regardless of whether that opinion agrees with mine or not. Indeed a person who has come to an informed opinion and states it is very likely to be able to influence others. When instead you get someone repeating phrases almost like slogans they are repeated so often, no this is something different and concerning.


No state on this planet is having a demonization campaign waged against it, as big as the one waged against Israel.
I think the Palestinian people have. I think the Iranian people have. I think Saudi Arabia has. I don;t see Israel deminised here. Our problem as far as you were concerned was that we also reported things from a Palestinian perspective. With regards to Gaza now impossible, also through their own fault as well as Israel's due to them kidnapping one of our best journalists!

We get no information out of Gaza. Israel has a free line. The rest of Palestine we also get no news from. They are totally inept at using the media. That is why some newspapers and tv stations do their best to provide it for them. That I think is what Israel sees as demonising. It is just presenting both sides.


To call the Israeli government's efforts to explain its country's actions, in the present and the past, "an organized propaganda" is ridiculous,
Now you are twisting what I said. I said if it is organised which I believed it may be. My opinion remains the same but as I am not certain this is the case, I can only give my concern that it may be.


because that term would just as well fit a prime minister answering to the questions of his country's citizens in a press conference.

Of course and as I have said already we all know that happens. We all expect it. Most of us are well aware that what is said may not be the truth so we listen with discrimination.

Where it gets different is when there is a person from our country presenting what are supposed to be his own views but from using this board I could tell were not his own due to them having the same format as people use on this forum.

Much the same way as Captain Curtesy discovered creation was a sock.
 
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