Why aren't we hearing about these numbers?

[digitusmedius]

Do you have a link establishing it is "categorically true" that deaths in the U.S. due to COVID are overstated?

It's drivel because he's lying about this assertion being established as "categorically true" and offers nothing to back it up. You're defending him with.....nothing to back that assertion up. And if someone makes an argument based on lies, why do we care about his opinion?

Oh, Jack can and likely will give you all sorts of bullshit sources for his lies. He's been doing it for CAGW for years.

 

[Paradoxical]

You've even started parroting one of your ****ing Dirtbag's favorite ways of lying, i.e.: "A lotta people say......." Stop denying you're in a cult when it's been so glaringly obvious for years.

LMAO.

 

[Jack Hays]

Do you have a link establishing it is "categorically true" that deaths in the U.S. due to COVID are overstated?

It's nice you're changing the hack's argument to make it less intellectually dishonest, but it's also dishonest on your part. He's not saying that it's possible or arguable that deaths are overstated, and then presenting a case, he's asserting it as FACT, "categorically true", that readers must accept without a shred of evidence. It's hackery.

There are any number of links to articles covering this question from a couple of weeks ago. Most are written from the point of view that deaths are not overstated. It is nonetheless certain, as a simple matter of probability, that deaths from C-19 have been overstated, even if only by a small increment. Why? If only 6% of reported C-19 deaths listed C-19 as the only CoD then the other 94% listed co-morbidities. Of that 94%, it would be extraordinary if C-19 were actually the principal CoD 100% of the time. These are judgment calls, even without including the possibility of error. And finally, in light of hospital funding opportunities tied to C-19 engagement it's easy to see the incentive to prioritize C-19 as a CoD. None of this requires a conspiracy theory or even an imputation of bad faith or dishonesty.

 

[JasperL]

That's ain interesting question and shows how irrelevant the issue of contagion for COVID is. Cancer can be the result of damned near anything. Sunlight causes cancer. Food causes cancer. Breathing causes cancer. Taking medication causes cancer. Having sex causes cancer. Literally ANYTHING can be the root cause of a cancer you end up diagnosed with. Heck, you can be born with a genetic predisposition to certain cancers. In that regard cancer is WAY more dangerous and way more deadly than COVID but we do next to nothing to protect everyone from cancer. We treat cancer as if it's our responsibility to take precautions against but with COVID it has been decided that the government MUST be the one held responsible for every single death. The reason for that is rather obvious, the panic is due to TDS instead of common sense.

That's absurd, actually. We do all kinds of things to protect against cancer, catch it early, and more. When was the last time you saw someone smoking on a plane? That's a decent parallel because that guy smoking on the plane impacts himself and others, and it's been banned for years. Now to fly you have to wear a mask, so you don't infect others. Where's the difference.

And no one argues 'every single death' is government's fault. And is the "panic" in Israel due to TDS? In New Zealand? France? The UK? Is the entire world reacting irrationally because of TRUMP?

My goodness, the arguments get worse and worse as we go along.

 

[Alfons]

These numbers on the survival rate of folks who get Covid-19 came out this week from the CDC:

View attachment 67296403

I'm sorry, but with numbers like this the government (aka states) should end all mandatory shut-downs and restrictions. It's time to restore individual freedom and allow people to choose how they want to live their lives and how they want to address Covid-19.

.

Because only the 'vaccine' matters.

 

[Grim17]

Yes, because Hitler was trying to stop a plague.

This is honestly the stupidest thing posted this year.

Here, let me explain my sarcasm...

You want our government to act as a dictator, rather than one which respects and protects our individual freedom. Now before you go on a screed about this "deadly plague" please refer to the statistics on post #1.

 

[JasperL]

There are any number of links to articles covering this question from a couple of weeks ago.

Link one or two proving the overstatement is "categorically true." Thanks!

Most are written from the point of view that deaths are not overstated. It is nonetheless certain, as a simple matter of probability, that deaths from C-19 have been overstated, even if only by a small increment. Why? If only 6% of reported C-19 deaths listed C-19 as the only CoD then the other 94% listed co-morbidities. Of that 94%, it would be extraordinary if C-19 were actually the principal CoD 100% of the time. These are judgment calls, even without including the possibility of error. And finally, in light of hospital funding opportunities tied to C-19 engagement it's easy to see the incentive to prioritize C-19 as a CoD. None of this requires a conspiracy theory or even an imputation of bad faith or dishonesty.

Goodness, that's a terrible argument. What your analysis assumes without evidence is there are NO, ZERO COVID deaths that were not attributed to COVID. Of course there is a 100% chance that many, thousands, of deaths actually due to COVID related problems were not counted as such. So to know the 'true' number of COVID deaths, you need to know the undercounts AND the over counts. It's like deaths from "the flu." Very, very few death certificates list 'the flu' as the UCOD, but the CDC estimates that number based on the increase in pneumonia and other deaths that they attribute to 'the flu.' The same will be true with COVID. Especially early on when we had no testing, we know there were many COVID deaths not counted as such. How many? Who knows?

And you are misusing that 6% stat (shock!!...not). "COVID" isn't a cause of death - COVID causes one or more critical organs to fail, and that's the immediate cause of death and should be listed along with COVID. Did the person have heart failure, liver failure, stroke, heart attack, lungs fill with fluid and kill the person, etc.? If the death certificate just lists "COVID" then we don't know how that person died. I don't see how any death certificate properly completed lists only "COVID" as a cause of death.

 

[JasperL]

Oh, Jack can and likely will give you all sorts of bullshit sources for his lies. He's been doing it for CAGW for years.

True enough, but here he's changing the argument to make it more defensible, which is another neat trick. Sure, the author makes an indefensible claim (i.e. a lie), but if you don't address the claim he did make, but another one entirely, it's not so bad!!

 

[mike2810]

Seems I recall there are reports on the potential long term effects on people of all age groups who survived CV19. They already know that the heart, lungs and brain can be damaged. It is too early to know other long term effects. The Mayo report is just one of many that are done.

COVID-19: Long-term effects

Learn about the possible long-term effects of COVID-19.

www.mayoclinic.org

Those who had CV19 and recovered. You may not be out of the woods yet on health issues.

 

[digitusmedius]

Seems I recall there are reports on the potential long term effects on people of all age groups who survived CV19. They already know that the heart, lungs and brain can be damaged. It is too early to know other long term effects. The Mayo report is just one of many that are done.

COVID-19: Long-term effects

Learn about the possible long-term effects of COVID-19.

www.mayoclinic.org

Those who had CV19 and recovered. You may not be out of the woods yet on health issues.

And just as millions of people who've "recovered" from covid-19 may be left with brand new "pre-existing conditions" you can be sure that if Republicans do manage to gut the PPACA insurance companies will either refuse to offer insurance to these people or make the premiums so high as to make health insurance out of reach. And they keep telling us we're mean to call them evil.

 

[Lutherf]

That's absurd, actually. We do all kinds of things to protect against cancer, catch it early, and more. When was the last time you saw someone smoking on a plane? That's a decent parallel because that guy smoking on the plane impacts himself and others, and it's been banned for years. Now to fly you have to wear a mask, so you don't infect others. Where's the difference.

And no one argues 'every single death' is government's fault. And is the "panic" in Israel due to TDS? In New Zealand? France? The UK? Is the entire world reacting irrationally because of TRUMP?

My goodness, the arguments get worse and worse as we go along.

Yes, smokers now need to do so outside. The case rate for lung cancer is now right around what it was in 1975, before all the "stuff" we did to prevent lung cancer. That's also with a LOT less smokers than there were back then.
https://seer.cancer.gov/statfacts/html/lungb.html

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

You do know (I hope) that people are still dying at a rate of 1,000/day, right?

That's only been for 10 of the past 25 days, so at 40% you rate an F.

[The above form of "Internet Rebuttal" has been specifically and officially approved and endorsed by "Devoted Online Lovers of Trump" Inc. (a non-partisan, independent, research and analysis organization exempt from federal taxation that is dedicated to bringing you the true truth and not the false truth that anyone who doesn't believe 100% of what Donald Trump says tries to tell you the so-called "facts" are), "Pro-Life United Gun Enthusiasts and Manufacturers for Jesus", and “"The ‘First Amendment Rights Trust’ Foundation”.]

 

[JasperL]

Yes, smokers now need to do so outside. The case rate for lung cancer is now right around what it was in 1975, before all the "stuff" we did to prevent lung cancer. That's also with a LOT less smokers than there were back then.
https://seer.cancer.gov/statfacts/html/lungb.html

That is beside the point. We make MASSIVE efforts to prevent, diagnose and treat cancer. Lung cancer is just one of those cancers that society spends vast sums trying to mitigate any way we can.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Isn't it a violation of someone's constitutional right to prohibit them from smoking? Why shouldn't people be able to smoke in restaurants, theaters, stadiums, arenas, operating rooms, swimming pools, on the subway, on buses, or anyplace else they feel like smoking.

After all smoking mostly kills old people so why should young people be deprived of their rights just to save a couple of lives now and then?

[The above has been specifically and officially approved and endorsed by "Devoted Online Lovers of Trump" Inc. (a non-partisan, independent, research and analysis organization exempt from federal taxation that is dedicated to bringing you the true truth and not the false truth that anyone who doesn't believe 100% of what Donald Trump says tries to tell you the so-called "facts" are), "Pro-Life United Gun Enthusiasts and Manufacturers for Jesus", and “"The ‘First Amendment Rights Trust’ Foundation”.]

 

[year2late]

These numbers on the survival rate of folks who get Covid-19 came out this week from the CDC:

View attachment 67296403

I'm sorry, but with numbers like this the government (aka states) should end all mandatory shut-downs and restrictions. It's time to restore individual freedom and allow people to choose how they want to live their lives and how they want to address Covid-19.

What do you consider "surviving"? I have a nurse friend working in home health, and her visits are now frequently to middle aged covid victims...who used to have strong careers and now need tons of extra help and management at home long after they started testing negative.

ICU nurses I know say their ICU's still have about half of their population covid - they remain critically ill long after they test negative.

About 1500 people die from Cancer each day in the US alone. And 3400 more people are diagnosed with cancer each day. So what is your point

If I stand next to a person with cancer, I do not catch their cancer. Do you get the difference?

I have been a critical care RN for 37 years. Never have I seen fellow staff member become seriously ill from a infection caught from a patient. We are still seriously at risk . First responders have been taken down from contacts at work. By taken down, I mean dying from contacts at work,

I people stopped whining and did what they needed to do months ago we probably could have saved 100,000 lives and our economy. We could have been nearly fully opened up and been in a workable test and trace and isolate only those needed mode.

 

[Paradoxical]

If I stand next to a person with cancer, I do not catch their cancer. Do you get the difference?

I have been a critical care RN for 37 years. Never have I seen fellow staff member become seriously ill from a infection caught from a patient. We are still seriously at risk . First responders have been taken down from contacts at work. By taken down, I mean dying from contacts at work,

I people stopped whining and did what they needed to do months ago we probably could have saved 100,000 lives and our economy. We could have been nearly fully opened up and been in a workable test and trace and isolate only those needed mode.

Your evidence of this?

 

[Jack Hays]

Link one or two proving the overstatement is "categorically true." Thanks!



Goodness, that's a terrible argument. What your analysis assumes without evidence is there are NO, ZERO COVID deaths that were not attributed to COVID. Of course there is a 100% chance that many, thousands, of deaths actually due to COVID related problems were not counted as such. So to know the 'true' number of COVID deaths, you need to know the undercounts AND the over counts. It's like deaths from "the flu." Very, very few death certificates list 'the flu' as the UCOD, but the CDC estimates that number based on the increase in pneumonia and other deaths that they attribute to 'the flu.' The same will be true with COVID. Especially early on when we had no testing, we know there were many COVID deaths not counted as such. How many? Who knows?

And you are misusing that 6% stat (shock!!...not). "COVID" isn't a cause of death - COVID causes one or more critical organs to fail, and that's the immediate cause of death and should be listed along with COVID. Did the person have heart failure, liver failure, stroke, heart attack, lungs fill with fluid and kill the person, etc.? If the death certificate just lists "COVID" then we don't know how that person died. I don't see how any death certificate properly completed lists only "COVID" as a cause of death.

The point is that the articles defending the CDC numbers are the ones which, in the aggregate, make the author's case.
And the whole question derives from the fact that 6% of death certificates list only COVID-19 as the CoD, so you'll need to rethink that argument.
I think the author's claim is thus quite defensible.

 

[Lutherf]

That is beside the point. We make MASSIVE efforts to prevent, diagnose and treat cancer. Lung cancer is just one of those cancers that society spends vast sums trying to mitigate any way we can.

The point is that cancer, car wrecks, heart attacks and all kinds of other stuff kills people every year too and does so at far higher rates than COVID. We deal with those things instead of hide from them, which is the way we have chosen to react to this virus.

 

[Paradoxical]

The point is that cancer, car wrecks, heart attacks and all kinds of other stuff kills people every year too and does so at far higher rates than COVID. We deal with those things instead of hide from them, which is the way we have chosen to react to this virus.

They are all for tasing people who argue with police over masks. We are deep into Orwellian times now.

 

[JasperL]

The point is that the articles defending the CDC numbers are the ones which, in the aggregate, make the author's case.
And the whole question derives from the fact that 6% of death certificates list only COVID-19 as the CoD, so you'll need to rethink that argument.
I think the author's claim is thus quite defensible.

You completely ignored both my arguments. If you don't understand them, say so. Your theory asserting a 'certain' case for undercounts is in fact stupid, because you assume there are no, zero, none, nada undercounts and only considered over counts. There will be both.

And I have no idea what articles you are talking about. You know how to link from WUWT hacks pretty well, so give me a link proving the author's case of a case for it being 'categorically true' that there are over counts in the U.S. I'm sure you cannot, but just say that, versus referring to "the articles" etc. Which one? How does this unknown article make the unknown case for it being "categorically true" that there are over counts?

Second, I know that 6% list only COVID. My point was I don't see how a death certificate listing only COVID is complete because COVID isn't actually an immediate cause of death. COVID ==> heart failure or liver failure or lung failure or stroke, or heart attack, etc. so any death certificate listing only COVID doesn't tell us how the person died and is as far as I can tell INCOMPLETE. It matters whether someone died of stroke, OR lung failure OR liver failure OR heart attack, etc.

 

[year2late]

Your evidence of this?

That I cannot catch cancer by standing next to a cancer patient? Only having been in the medical field for 4 years caring for cancer patients as well as caring for my mother and mother in law with cancer. If catching cancer from cancer patients was a thing, you would have oncology nurses and oncologists dropping like flies.

Dude. Seriously?

 

[Luce]

They are all for tasing people who argue with police over masks. We are deep into Orwellian times now.

You guys were all about mauling protestors.

Any permissiveness you grant for a good reason will also be used for a bad reason.

Buckle up.

 

[JasperL]

The point is that cancer, car wrecks, heart attacks and all kinds of other stuff kills people every year too and does so at far higher rates than COVID. We deal with those things instead of hide from them, which is the way we have chosen to react to this virus.

You're comparing apples to dump trucks. The appropriate reaction to a novel virus is going to be different than to car wrecks, and we spend MASSIVE sums preventing injuries from car wrecks, limit our FREEDOMS in several ways (speed limits, Stop signs, DUI laws, licensing, registration), mandate behavior on the roads, etc.

BUTWHATABOUTCARWRECKS isn't actually an argument against government restrictions on gatherings etc.

 

[JasperL]

They are all for tasing people who argue with police over masks. We are deep into Orwellian times now.

The law says you must wear a mask. The LEO told her to put one on, she refused, was arrested and resisted arrest.

If that's good enough for stopping some young black kid on the street, it's good enough for white women at a football game.

 

[Lutherf]

You're comparing apples to dump trucks. The appropriate reaction to a novel virus is going to be different than to car wrecks, and we spend MASSIVE sums preventing injuries from car wrecks, limit our FREEDOMS in several ways (speed limits, Stop signs, DUI laws, licensing, registration), mandate behavior on the roads, etc.

BUTWHATABOUTCARWRECKS isn't actually an argument against government restrictions on gatherings etc.

The auto manufacturers spend a lot of money on vehicle safety. The NHTSA spends around 25% of their budget on that kind of thing and part of that 25% is on writing vehicle emissions standards. Do you know what about half the the NHTSA budget goes to? It goes to grants for police departments and companies that make interlock devices and such. The government sponsors research on vehicle safety and writes regulations. That's the same thing CDC does for viruses. It doesn't "prevent" shit. It provides information so that private industries and private individuals can have some consolidated information on how to prevent their own shit.

People are looking at the virus like it's something we've never seen before and can't even wrap our heads around without government instructions. That's bullshit.