• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Why All Teachers Should not be Armed

avery45

Member
Joined
May 17, 2011
Messages
203
Reaction score
38
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
All teachers should not be armed due to securing the gun. If all teachers have a gun how will the gun be secured? Will it be on the teacher or locked in their desk. Either way there is a chance of theft or misplacement.

Let's say a school has 100 teachers and they all carry a gun. If one goes missing or is stolen now the school must go into lock down in order to find the gun. Most teacher will tell you they have had something stolen from a locked compartment at school.

I do believe a gun should be assessable at schools. The details are to long for this post. But in a nutshell, keeping the gun or guns in a secure lock box at different locations around the school with properly trained personnel to use them.
 

Rainman05

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 14, 2012
Messages
10,032
Reaction score
4,966
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
All teachers should not be armed due to securing the gun. If all teachers have a gun how will the gun be secured? Will it be on the teacher or locked in their desk. Either way there is a chance of theft or misplacement.

Let's say a school has 100 teachers and they all carry a gun. If one goes missing or is stolen now the school must go into lock down in order to find the gun. Most teacher will tell you they have had something stolen from a locked compartment at school.

I do believe a gun should be assessable at schools. The details are to long for this post. But in a nutshell, keeping the gun or guns in a secure lock box at different locations around the school with properly trained personnel to use them.

I don't think teachers should have guns. I do think that parents should decide if they want their school to have security, and if they choose to have security, they should have the option of choosing armed security too. Basically, let it to the parents to decide how they want their kids to be protected in school.

I don't think anybody thinks arming teachers at school is a good idea. I mean, it does seem like a pretty stupid idea to me.
 

Fiddytree

Neocon Elitist
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
30,165
Reaction score
17,594
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
I expect great things with this being located in the gun control section rather than the education section. The responses you'll get will be very different here. There is the propensity to argue for the carrying of firearms in every occasion, regardless of appropriateness.
 

avery45

Member
Joined
May 17, 2011
Messages
203
Reaction score
38
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
I agree. But there is an extensive cost to having security. But if parents are willing to fit the bill, it would be better.

There have been some school districts that have allowed their teachers to be armed.
 

VanceMack

MSG Benavidez TAB
Suspended
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Messages
84,177
Reaction score
37,147
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I know of teachers that carry concealed legally in schools right now. You would never know who they were. Neither would anyone else, unless there were an incident involving a school shooting.
 

RabidAlpaca

Engineer
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Messages
24,728
Reaction score
34,069
Location
American Refugee in Europe
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
All teachers should not be armed due to securing the gun. If all teachers have a gun how will the gun be secured? Will it be on the teacher or locked in their desk. Either way there is a chance of theft or misplacement.

Let's say a school has 100 teachers and they all carry a gun. If one goes missing or is stolen now the school must go into lock down in order to find the gun. Most teacher will tell you they have had something stolen from a locked compartment at school.

I do believe a gun should be assessable at schools. The details are to long for this post. But in a nutshell, keeping the gun or guns in a secure lock box at different locations around the school with properly trained personnel to use them.

What is this all-or-nothing approach you invented? Nobody has called for all teachers having guns. They've called that SOME teachers can choose to have guns.
 

avery45

Member
Joined
May 17, 2011
Messages
203
Reaction score
38
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
I know of teachers that carry concealed legally in schools right now. You would never know who they were. Neither would anyone else, unless there were an incident involving a school shooting.

If they work in a high school they will eventually become a target. Not necessarily a victim but a target for theft. To a high student it would be bragging rights to be the first to lift a gun of a teacher. They will brag all the way down to jail but they will brag non the less.
 

Rainman05

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 14, 2012
Messages
10,032
Reaction score
4,966
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I agree. But there is an extensive cost to having security. But if parents are willing to fit the bill, it would be better.

There have been some school districts that have allowed their teachers to be armed.

In the case of private schools, sure, let the parents foot the bill if they choose security.
But in the case of public schools, if the school is in a district that is known to have problems, if the state doesn't automatically offer armed security, then the parents could, by signing a petition, have the state fund a security detail to the school. There is no reason why children who attend public school should be any less protected than those who aren't, regardless whether the parents are able to pay or not. Children are the future whether you think it's a cliche or not. having them skip out on classes or allowing shady characters on school premises not only is a recipe for crime increase, but also for tragedies.
 

LaMidRighter

Klattu Verata Nicto
DP Veteran
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
30,534
Reaction score
10,717
Location
Louisiana
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
So, the new spin to the old talking point is to claim being a conservative now I guess. This thread is a rehash of the same emotional and irrational talking point that came about way before Sandy Hook. All this talking point is meant to do is act like a CYA tool for people who disarm adults in school zones. Lots of "what ifs" like;
- What if the gun is stolen. Probably not going to happen, proper concealment is part of the requirement to license in the first place, try again.
- What if someone targets the teacher? Not gonna happen, one would have to know that person is carrying, not likely.
- What if the teacher.............blah, blah, blah? Let's put it this way, the more "what ifs" you have to add, the weaker your case is.

And now, I regret spending this much time on yet another repetitive and vapid talking point meant to oversimplify the situation.
 

CRUE CAB

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 21, 2013
Messages
16,763
Reaction score
4,344
Location
Melbourne Florida
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
All teachers should not be armed due to securing the gun. If all teachers have a gun how will the gun be secured? Will it be on the teacher or locked in their desk. Either way there is a chance of theft or misplacement.

Let's say a school has 100 teachers and they all carry a gun. If one goes missing or is stolen now the school must go into lock down in order to find the gun. Most teacher will tell you they have had something stolen from a locked compartment at school.

I do believe a gun should be assessable at schools. The details are to long for this post. But in a nutshell, keeping the gun or guns in a secure lock box at different locations around the school with properly trained personnel to use them.
Um, on their person concealed. In a retention style holster under a garment.
Lose it, have it fall out, leave it in the john and you are fired on the spot.
 

joko104

Banned
Suspended
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Messages
65,981
Reaction score
23,408
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I don't think teachers should be armed for many reasons, including the impossibility of security the firearm from being taken by force.

Rather, at least larger schools could have a counselor for trouble kids who also is firearms certified and possibly even a law enforcement officer. He/she not only would be armed security, but would handle student behavior issues, other counselor issues, and security in general. Being armed and trained would only be one aspect of the position.
 

joko104

Banned
Suspended
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Messages
65,981
Reaction score
23,408
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I agree. But there is an extensive cost to having security. But if parents are willing to fit the bill, it would be better.

There have been some school districts that have allowed their teachers to be armed.

In the distant past there have been schools where older students came to school armed including here decades ago.

For one school, the kids ALL had to ROW to school - as the islands people couldn't settle on which island the school should be on, so they put it on a tiny island in the middle no one lived on. Rowing there poised dangers, so it was not uncommon the kids were armed.

As for a first grader having to row a boat in estuaries at the Gulf of Mexico to school? They had a saying for that. "Any child who can't row a boat by age 6 would not be capable of being educated."

How times and attitudes have changed!
 
Last edited:

VanceMack

MSG Benavidez TAB
Suspended
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Messages
84,177
Reaction score
37,147
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
If they work in a high school they will eventually become a target. Not necessarily a victim but a target for theft. To a high student it would be bragging rights to be the first to lift a gun of a teacher. They will brag all the way down to jail but they will brag non the less.
Again..unless it is needed, no one will EVER know they are armed.
 

tech30528

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,243
Reaction score
3,014
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
What is this all-or-nothing approach you invented? Nobody has called for all teachers having guns. They've called that SOME teachers can choose to have guns.

Thank you. Saved me some time there. There has to be a willingness on the part of the teacher, a criteria for the teacher to meet to satisfy the school administrators and a legal standard for safe storage and operation from the state.
 

avery45

Member
Joined
May 17, 2011
Messages
203
Reaction score
38
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
So, the new spin to the old talking point is to claim being a conservative now I guess. This thread is a rehash of the same emotional and irrational talking point that came about way before Sandy Hook. All this talking point is meant to do is act like a CYA tool for people who disarm adults in school zones. Lots of "what ifs" like;
- What if the gun is stolen. Probably not going to happen, proper concealment is part of the requirement to license in the first place, try again.
- What if someone targets the teacher? Not gonna happen, one would have to know that person is carrying, not likely.
- What if the teacher.............blah, blah, blah? Let's put it this way, the more "what ifs" you have to add, the weaker your case is.

And now, I regret spending this much time on yet another repetitive and vapid talking point meant to oversimplify the situation.

Leadership has to ask the what if question and make the best decision off the most likely events. All the counter arguments you gave are not valid because the secret would get out. Cell phone have been stolen off teachers that held them on their person.

Not arguing against not have guns on campus. Arguing for the process in which they are handled. Having security or having guns in designated areas of the school can be secured better than having every teacher handling a firearm differently.
 

avery45

Member
Joined
May 17, 2011
Messages
203
Reaction score
38
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Gun is still unaccounted for. That's the biggest problem.
 

LaMidRighter

Klattu Verata Nicto
DP Veteran
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
30,534
Reaction score
10,717
Location
Louisiana
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
Leadership has to ask the what if question and make the best decision off the most likely events. All the counter arguments you gave are not valid because the secret would get out. Cell phone have been stolen off teachers that held them on their person.

Not arguing against not have guns on campus. Arguing for the process in which they are handled. Having security or having guns in designated areas of the school can be secured better than having every teacher handling a firearm differently.
Negative. Every single thing you've brought up has already been said. "What ifs" are nothing more than a bunch of empty hypotheticals, they are nothing more than an additional negative introduced in the face of a losing argument. Cell phones are much easier to steal BTW than a properly holstered firearm.
 

Republic Now!

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 3, 2012
Messages
2,671
Reaction score
1,075
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
I expect great things with this being located in the gun control section rather than the education section. The responses you'll get will be very different here. There is the propensity to argue for the carrying of firearms in every occasion, regardless of appropriateness.

I don't think the expectation is that a teacher will be flailing the gun about in the middle of class. I'd imagine that if teachers are allowed to carry, it would be with concealment and any unnecessary discussion and/or brandishing of the firearm would be grounds for dismissal. Is it still inappropriate in that case?
 

avery45

Member
Joined
May 17, 2011
Messages
203
Reaction score
38
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Then why wear seat belt. Or have insurance. It's for the what if. Like I said not against guns on campus. Having all teachers armed would cause more problems than would be necessary. And cops have had guns taken off of them. Breaking up a fight would cause the gun to become unsecured. And if rules were a complete deterrent having sex with students would not be an issue. Listen to what I'm saying: Guns on campus ok. Everyone armed not such a good idea. I can go into greater depth to explain.
 

VanceMack

MSG Benavidez TAB
Suspended
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Messages
84,177
Reaction score
37,147
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Then why wear seat belt. Or have insurance. It's for the what if. Like I said not against guns on campus. Having all teachers armed would cause more problems than would be necessary. And cops have had guns taken off of them. Breaking up a fight would cause the gun to become unsecured. And if rules were a complete deterrent having sex with students would not be an issue. Listen to what I'm saying: Guns on campus ok. Everyone armed not such a good idea. I can go into greater depth to explain.
Not sure what you are advocating or opposed to. I dont know of anyone that is suggesting every teacher or even most should be armed.
 

avery45

Member
Joined
May 17, 2011
Messages
203
Reaction score
38
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Advocating allowing guns on campus but having designated areas where the guns are held. Several places around the school will hold the firearms. Like a lock box. When a suspicious person is on campus, campus goes on lock down, authorities are notified and designated personnel with the key to the lock box will arm themselves. Yes key can be stolen. When it happens inventory for all firearms are taken and locks are immediately changed. Training for the designated personnel will be extensive with not only CnC but also above average marksmanship. They need to hit their target and not miss to hit an innocent student. Additional training of how to cover corners and work in pairs. Certification for this position should be done every year. Just for starters.
 

jamesrage

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Messages
36,278
Reaction score
17,622
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
All teachers should not be armed due to securing the gun. If all teachers have a gun how will the gun be secured? Will it be on the teacher or locked in their desk. Either way there is a chance of theft or misplacement.

Let's say a school has 100 teachers and they all carry a gun. If one goes missing or is stolen now the school must go into lock down in order to find the gun. Most teacher will tell you they have had something stolen from a locked compartment at school.

I do believe a gun should be assessable at schools. The details are to long for this post. But in a nutshell, keeping the gun or guns in a secure lock box at different locations around the school with properly trained personnel to use them.


I think random teachers should have a concealed gun on themselves. School personnel dress code should be in such a way that no student can tell who is or isn't armed,maybe even randomize which teachers will be armed on what days. This way some sicko can't make plans on which classrooms to hit or make plans for when armed teachers are off campus or on the other side of campus or who to jump for a firearm. Students should assume that all teachers and other school personnel are armed.

I thought about the lock box idea and came to the conclusion it wouldn't be a good idea. Because locks can be defeated or they can be jammed.
 

avery45

Member
Joined
May 17, 2011
Messages
203
Reaction score
38
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
I think random teachers should have a concealed gun on themselves. School personnel dress code should be in such a way that no student can tell who is or isn't armed,maybe even randomize which teachers will be armed on what days. This way some sicko can't make plans on which classrooms to hit or make plans for when armed teachers are off campus or on the other side of campus or who to jump for a firearm. Students should assume that all teachers and other school personnel are armed.

I thought about the lock box idea and came to the conclusion it wouldn't be a good idea. Because locks can be defeated or they can be jammed.

Locks can be overcome. But they would be closely monitored. Arming the principle and vice principles and a few others would be another idea worth looking into. Sigh in sign out. but having every teacher bringing their personal gun to school can get chaotic. Not knowing how many guns are on campus would not only make the administration nervous but also any first responders. Knowing how many guns the school has been assigned can give authorities an idea of what to expect.
 

DDD

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 26, 2012
Messages
12,351
Reaction score
1,918
Location
Republic of Dardania
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I think you guys rely too much reliance guns to consider teachers using them also.
 

Fiddytree

Neocon Elitist
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
30,165
Reaction score
17,594
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
I don't think the expectation is that a teacher will be flailing the gun about in the middle of class. I'd imagine that if teachers are allowed to carry, it would be with concealment and any unnecessary discussion and/or brandishing of the firearm would be grounds for dismissal. Is it still inappropriate in that case?

I'm mostly arguing that people in this forum are strictly viewing it from a gun rights perspective, when in fact the educational discipline is what matters more. You have already had insurance companies refuse coverage due to the perceived escalated risk, you have a majority of polled teachers standing opposed to the concept, and you still have the (albeit fiscally limiting) option of armed security officers who become quite useful in maintaining security and a good atmosphere/role modeling for students.

But because it is in this place, the discussion will take less insight from any school district, administration, or teacher perspective. The emphasis will be on rhetorical arguments about gun safety and paranoia from either pro-control or anti-controllers. Hence, why I said this discussion is too plebeian.
 
Top Bottom