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Turkey alleges connection between Israel and PKK attack

Demon of Light

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Amid the growing outrage over an Israeli attack on civilian ships in international waters that killed nine Turkish pro-Palestinian activists and wounded dozens last week, there is deepening suspicion about the possible Israeli involvement in the killing of seven soldiers in a terrorist rocket attack on a naval base in İskenderun, in the southern province of Hatay.

Turkish intelligence organizations are looking into possible connections between the two incidents that occurred on the same day only hours apart. The terrorist act was carried out by the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK), an outlawed organization that has been listed as terrorist group both in Turkey and in much of the international community. Analysts claim Israeli secret services may have contracted the job to the PKK to send a message to the Turkish government.

Sedat Laçiner, head of the Ankara-based International Strategic Research Organization (USAK), told Sunday’s Zaman that there are some groups in Israel actively working with the PKK using its Iranian wing, the Party for a Free Life in Kurdistan (PJAK), which has been waging a war in western Iran. He said the link is more than a simple conspiracy theory, it’s a substantiated one as some members of Mossad and retired Israeli military officers were spotted training Kurdish fighters in the northern Iraqi Kurdish region.
Source: Today's Zaman

As if relations weren't bad enough.
 

donsutherland1

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Despite claims that the allegations are "more than a simple conspiracy theory," that's exactly what the allegations are. In fact, Israel had aided Turkey in combating the PKK terrorist organization during the 1990s.
 

ferrugem

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As i recall, Israel was one of first to send rescue teams and aid when the earthquake took place in 1999.. including the last, on may, 10' Turkey insisted the Israel will send resue teams.
 

Apocalypse

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That's the sort of thing I'd expect to hear from the mouth of Ahmadinejad or Khamenei.
Same goes for the "Hamas is not a terrorist organization statement".
 

Demon of Light

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Despite claims that the allegations are "more than a simple conspiracy theory," that's exactly what the allegations are. In fact, Israel had aided Turkey in combating the PKK terrorist organization during the 1990s.
Are you suggesting countries never form alliances with groups they once opposed in order to take on a new enemy or are you saying this is only the case for Israel? Israel's ties with the Kurds are well-known and PJAK constitutes an ideal ally for Israel against Iran. As Turkey's entire political establishment, secularists and Islamists, is taking a stance against Israel and the West one should only expect the PKK to begin getting favorable attention from them.

The timing is rather interesting. Perhaps Israel signaled they would begin to support the PKK against Turkey given this situation over the flotilla.
 

donsutherland1

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Are you suggesting countries never form alliances with groups they once opposed in order to take on a new enemy or are you saying this is only the case for Israel? Israel's ties with the Kurds are well-known and PJAK constitutes an ideal ally for Israel against Iran. As Turkey's entire political establishment, secularists and Islamists, is taking a stance against Israel and the West one should only expect the PKK to begin getting favorable attention from them.

The timing is rather interesting. Perhaps Israel signaled they would begin to support the PKK against Turkey given this situation over the flotilla.
Israel has made no such policy shifts. Instead, the accusation by Turkey is yet another pretext by which the current Turkish government can rationalize a further deterioration in ties with Israel. In the meantime, Jerusalem still seems to be somewhat slow to recognize that Turkey has ceased to be a reliable strategic ally.

Given its own fight against terrorist groups, Israel is not going to back a well-known terrorist organization. Such a move would be inconsistent with its own larger interests. Turkey, on the other hand, is willing to take an inconsistent approach to terrorists, as it is in the midst of a strategic reorientation of its foreign policy and such moves can allow it to rationalize its weakening of the previously strong bilateral Israel-Turkey relationship.
 
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Demon of Light

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Israel has made no such policy shifts.
That right there is just naive. Israel would have to be stupid to not be making policy shifts with regards to Turkey.

Instead, the accusation by Turkey is yet another pretext by which the current Turkish government can rationalize a further deterioration in ties with Israel. In the meantime, Jerusalem still seems to be somewhat slow to recognize that Turkey has ceased to be a reliable strategic ally.
Turkey needs no pretext as the public opinion in Turkey has long been turning against Israel as has the opinion of the political establishment. Israel is not ignorant of this and whatever public face they put forward you can be certain they are taking action outside the public sphere in response to this shift.

Given its own fight against terrorist groups, Israel is not going to back a well-known terrorist organization. Such a move would be inconsistent with its own larger interests.
How is it inconsistent? Israel has happily aided terrorism and brutality by non-state actors plenty of times. The PKK is a secular leftist group advocating for Kurdish independence, it poses no threat to Israel. Kurdish ties with Israel are very good and currently Kurds are up against Turkey, Iran, and Syria. So, in fact, Israel has every reason to aid the PKK.

Turkey, on the other hand, is willing to take an inconsistent approach to terrorists, as it is in the midst of a strategic reorientation of its foreign policy and such moves can allow it to rationalize its weakening of the previously strong bilateral Israel-Turkey relationship.
Its approach is not inconsistent. The PKK has attacked Turkey and Hamas has not.
 

donsutherland1

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That right there is just naive. Israel would have to be stupid to not be making policy shifts with regards to Turkey.
Israel has likely made some policy shifts vis-a-vis Turkey, but my reference concerns backing the PKK terrorist group. Israel has not done so.

Its approach is not inconsistent. The PKK has attacked Turkey and Hamas has not.
The inconsistent approach refers to Turkey allowing itself free rein to combat the PKK while complaining when Israel seeks to combat the Hamas terrorist group. It refers to Turkey's acting across the boundaries of sovereign states while complaining when Israel operated in international waters.
 

Lord Tammerlain

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The US and Israel most likely have aided the PJAK which is a Kurdish group that shares the same bases as the PKK in Iraq. US weaponry has been found in the hands of the PKK, that most likely came from the PJAK after the US supplied the weapons.

As for Turkey, the PKK and Israel and Hamas


Turkey under the AKP has stopped the collective punishment that previous Turkish government inflicted on the Kurdish population. A collective punishment that did result in around 500 000 or so ethnic Kurdish refugees in Turkey. Instead it generally targets specific PKK sites as best it can

Israel has moved towards the collective punishment version of combating Hamas, inflicting harm on the Palestinian population as a whole rather then targetting Hamas directly.

That is a significant difference in policy, one where the Turkish government can now (not in the past) claim moral superiority over Israel
 

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The US and Israel most likely have aided the PJAK which is a Kurdish group that shares the same bases as the PKK in Iraq. US weaponry has been found in the hands of the PKK, that most likely came from the PJAK after the US supplied the weapons.

As for Turkey, the PKK and Israel and Hamas


Turkey under the AKP has stopped the collective punishment that previous Turkish government inflicted on the Kurdish population. A collective punishment that did result in around 500 000 or so ethnic Kurdish refugees in Turkey. Instead it generally targets specific PKK sites as best it can

Israel has moved towards the collective punishment version of combating Hamas, inflicting harm on the Palestinian population as a whole rather then targetting Hamas directly.

That is a significant difference in policy, one where the Turkish government can now (not in the past) claim moral superiority over Israel
Israel doesn't collectively punish the Palestinians, Israel doesn't support the PKK.
 

alexa

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Israel doesn't collectively punish the Palestinians.
While I appreciate that you believe this and will always believe this, by definition Israel is involved in collective punishment of the Gaza population.

Penalty imposed on every member of a group without regard to his or her involvement in the group's actions and conduct. See also collective responsibility.
collective punishment definition

or more specifically about Gaza

http://gisha.org/UserFiles/File/publications/GazaClosureDefinedEng.pdf

Like I say I understand that you will never accept this but by definition that is what it is.
 

ido_

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While I appreciate that you believe this and will always believe this, by definition Israel is involved in collective punishment of the Gaza population.



collective punishment definition

or more specifically about Gaza

http://gisha.org/UserFiles/File/publications/GazaClosureDefinedEng.pdf

Like I say I understand that you will never accept this but by definition that is what it is.
Gaza is an enemy entity, Gaza's goverment was chosen by the majority of the people of Gaza so they are their lawful represetative. Iran's goverment legitimacy is not as clear as the goverment of Gaza as a representative of their people though the western powers push thorwards sanctions on Iran. The situation here is no different, Israel is at a state of war with the Gaza strip, I do not differ the people of Gaza from Hamas, They chose Hamas to represent us, just as you and I will face any concequances of our goverments' actions so will they. Israel doesn't have to support the people of Gaza in any way, its our moral standarts that makes us pass on humanitarian supplies to the people of Gaza.
 
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Apocalypse

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While I appreciate that you believe this and will always believe this, by definition Israel is involved in collective punishment of the Gaza population.



collective punishment definition

or more specifically about Gaza

http://gisha.org/UserFiles/File/publications/GazaClosureDefinedEng.pdf

Like I say I understand that you will never accept this but by definition that is what it is.
No penalty is imposed on the Palestinian civilians.
They are being affected by the penalties imposed on Hamas, but in order for it to be collective punishment there needs to be an intention to penalize the Gazan population.

Edit: Anyway let's not derail this thread, clearly I have my own opinion and you have yours, but this thread is about the Turkish claim that Israel is involved with the PKK.
There are more than enough threads about the blockade on Hamas.
 
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CrazyMcCool

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Sounds to me like nothing more than a politician trying to ride the wave of recent hate for his own agenda ect ect

Nothing more, nothing less.
 

Demon of Light

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Israel has likely made some policy shifts vis-a-vis Turkey, but my reference concerns backing the PKK terrorist group. Israel has not done so.
What makes you so certain? Do you work for Mossad?

The inconsistent approach refers to Turkey allowing itself free rein to combat the PKK while complaining when Israel seeks to combat the Hamas terrorist group. It refers to Turkey's acting across the boundaries of sovereign states while complaining when Israel operated in international waters.
There is nothing inconsistent about their approach. Turkey is not threatened by Hamas in any way, but is threatened by the PKK. By the same token Israel supporting the PKK would not be inconsistent, because the group actually lines up well with Israel's strategic interests.
 

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I'm tired of the hypocrisy.

So, let's see, attacking a humanitarian aid convoy in international waters and killing humanitarians = mild scolding (Israel)

Exercising your NPT guaranteed rights, in compliance with the NPT, under IAEA supervision = sanctions (Iran)

I guess it's about the war industries on the home front. What good are reduced tensions and diplomacy when your business depends on war? And Clinton... she's doing what she was hired to do: be an Israeli apologist but a condemner of Iran. Maybe if Iran was part of the American war business, we wouldn't be seeing sanctions but instead loads of American weapons merchandise heading their way.
 

donsutherland1

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What makes you so certain? Do you work for Mossad?
Being familiar with Israel's foreign policy does not require one to work for the Mossad. Israel's government is quite transparent and the websites of the Prime Minister and Foreign Minister furnish abundant information.

There is nothing inconsistent about their approach. Turkey is not threatened by Hamas in any way, but is threatened by the PKK. By the same token Israel supporting the PKK would not be inconsistent, because the group actually lines up well with Israel's strategic interests.
You're missing the point. The policy inconsistency is two-fold:

1. Turkey allows itself a free hand when it comes to combating those it defines as terrorist organizations, but it objects when others do so.
2. Turkey is willing to breach the borders of sovereign states in doing so, even as it complains about others who act in self-defense in similar fashion.
 

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I'm tired of the hypocrisy.

So, let's see, attacking a humanitarian aid convoy in international waters and killing humanitarians = mild scolding (Israel)

.

"Humanitarians"?

I am tired of the bald faced lies, myself.
 

Lord Tammerlain

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"Humanitarians"?

I am tired of the bald faced lies, myself.
So what were they

Food terrorists, planning on killing Israelis with tea and biscuits, oh the horror of british food


I am tired or the morons who call terrorism at everything imaginable.

They had food and building supplies, no weapons of war, no explosives
 

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I'm tired of the hypocrisy.

So, let's see, attacking a humanitarian aid convoy in international waters and killing humanitarians = mild scolding (Israel)

Exercising your NPT guaranteed rights, in compliance with the NPT, under IAEA supervision = sanctions (Iran)

I guess it's about the war industries on the home front. What good are reduced tensions and diplomacy when your business depends on war? And Clinton... she's doing what she was hired to do: be an Israeli apologist but a condemner of Iran. Maybe if Iran was part of the American war business, we wouldn't be seeing sanctions but instead loads of American weapons merchandise heading their way.
No, you're not tired from hypocrisy - you're an hypocrite.

Boarding a ship that's trying to run a blockade in international waters after being warned several times - completely in accordance with international law, completely legitimate.
Acting in self defense after "humanitarians" attempt to kill you, stabbing you, outnumbering you 6 to 1, beating you with crowbars and opening live fire on you - completely legitimate.
Calling those people "humanitarians" - sheer hypocrisy.

I am tired of this hypocrisy.
 

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So what were they

Food terrorists, planning on killing Israelis with tea and biscuits, oh the horror of british food


I am tired or the morons who call terrorism at everything imaginable.

They had food and building supplies, no weapons of war, no explosives

The actual morons are those like brainwashed Canadians or Brits who can view an unedited tape of the landing party being lynched and still call those engaging in the lynching "humanitarians".
 

Demon of Light

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Being familiar with Israel's foreign policy does not require one to work for the Mossad. Israel's government is quite transparent and the websites of the Prime Minister and Foreign Minister furnish abundant information.
So you're saying that Jews always tell the truth. They're the one group in the entire world that is completely honest all the time. If they say they would never help terrorists then by golly you better not question them.

You're missing the point. The policy inconsistency is two-fold:

1. Turkey allows itself a free hand when it comes to combating those it defines as terrorist organizations, but it objects when others do so.
2. Turkey is willing to breach the borders of sovereign states in doing so, even as it complains about others who act in self-defense in similar fashion.
Like I said, it is not inconsistent since Hamas is not attacking Turkey. Also the flotilla was not breaching the borders of any sovereign state. It was attempting to break through a blockade, which several boats in the past broke through without incident, to deliver humanitarian aid to the people of Gaza. Despite seizing every boat the Israelis found no evidence whatsoever that the there was anything but what one would expect to find on a humanitarian mission. The fact some people got rowdy is not unexpected. Protests have a tendency to get rowdy, especially as they get larger and even more so when you send in the troops to crackdown.
 

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So you're saying that Jews always tell the truth. They're the one group in the entire world that is completely honest all the time. If they say they would never help terrorists then by golly you better not question them.
I believe that's not even a one hundred billion light years away from what don has been saying.
 

Demon of Light

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I believe that's not even a one hundred billion light years away from what don has been saying.
Have you heard of hyperbole? He does seem to be suggesting that we can take the Israeli government's word that they don't support any terrorist groups even when it would serve their geostrategic interests.
 

donsutherland1

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I believe that's not even a one hundred billion light years away from what don has been saying.
You are correct. The spin that has been given to my comment does not even begin to accurately reflect my point.
 
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