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Trump has been implicated in several federal crimes, but here's why experts say he hasn't faced lega

upsideguy said:
That appears to be what happened. All parties to the transaction, other than Trump, say it was hush money designed to protect the campaign. This would include Cohen, Pecker, Weisselberg, Daniels and McDougal. This would be consistent with the timing and urgency of the transaction post Hollywood tape reveal, pre-election.

If this were an isolated incidence of corruption, Trump would enjoy greater grace from the electorate. However, he is buried in controversies of corruption, a well documented liar and his whole position on this is rolling disclosure. Most intelligent people believe he has fully played his hand of shadow of a doubt and now stands naked, guilty as hell.

The defense of Donald Trump against ALL charges is beginning to look futile, and those that do so are increasingly looking pathetic in their loyalty. Like his policies, argue that he should run out his term and let the voters decide, but admit the man is despicable.
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I haven’t seen anything wrong with his policies, my wallet is full, maybe liberals should stop bitching and fill your pockets, we haven’t had this great of an economy that I’ve ever remembered, and I’m one of those old white deplorable red necks,


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hanger4 said:
So Trump didn't pay hush money yet Trump is implicated ??
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In the Cohen case, he is because he eventually, and fraudulently, repaid Cohen's campaign advance through bogus retainer fees paid from his company accounts, to take care of what he will have to swear is a "personal" matter.

Although to be complete, it's not clear who paid those fees - Trump's personal trust or one of his companies. What's also not clear is if he deducted the payments as business deductions, for either entity. If he did, that's another problem.

It's not clear how or if AMI got repaid. So it's not obvious Trump will be implicated unless there is evidence putting him in the loop. Seems implausible they pay off a bimbo without telling him the details, and making sure, you know, he knows who she is and they're not paying a bogus claim, but what they can prove isn't known to me...
 
uptower said:
Hypothetical here, but if Cohen or Pecker as witnesses claim that Trump directed them and did so in the context of the campaign (for example, 'we can't have this getting out or it'll blow my chances') and this is corroborated by other witnesses (other lawyers, staffers in the room at the time or on separate occasions having a similar conversation with the candidate) then the court may well find that it was all because he was running. Remember also the ever-evolving body of lies and excuses can be used to demonstrate intent as well.
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Does any of your hypothetical have Trump on tape saying "This time the only reason I'm paying off is because of the campaign?"
It really doesn't matter what Cohen or Pecker thought the reason was.
 
MrShangles said:
What a laugh,”Trump would enjoy greater grace” lol, lol. There isn’t one liberal that could say one good thing about Trump even if he cured cancer, so don’t even act like it.


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You realize its actually MOST of the country that feels that way.... liberal, democrat, most independents and some Republicans (and ex-Republicans). 54% of America thinks he is UNFIT for office (that is not a job approval, that is the population that thinks he is incompetent), while 59% already want a new President in 2021.

Trump has no one to blame but himself for that. He could have been everyone's president but instead he chose to serve only a minority of Americans. Hence, only a minority of Americans think he is doing a good job and a majority thinks he is incompetent (again, not just a bad job ... can't do the job).

The "grace" I was referring to is people being willing to give him some presumption on innocence. That is also pretty much gone. Most of America also believes Trump is guilty of one or more crimes.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/29/politics/trump-russia-polls/index.html

...and this was a year ago, before indictments starting flying.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/02/poll-trump-crime-russia-244
https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/12/05/donald-trump-is-guilty/470
 
upsideguy said:
You realize its actually MOST of the country that feels that way.... liberal, democrat, most independents and some Republicans (and ex-Republicans). 54% of America thinks he is UNFIT for office (that is not a job approval, that is the population that thinks he is incompetent), while 59% already want a new President in 2021.

Trump has no one to blame but himself for that. He could have been everyone's president but instead he chose to serve only a minority of Americans. Hence, only a minority of Americans think he is doing a good job and a majority thinks he is incompetent (again, not just a bad job ... can't do the job).

The "grace" I was referring to is people being willing to give him some presumption on innocence. That is also pretty much gone. Most of America also believes Trump is guilty of one or more crimes.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/29/politics/trump-russia-polls/index.html

...and this was a year ago, before indictments starting flying.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/02/poll-trump-crime-russia-244
https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/12/05/donald-trump-is-guilty/470
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*snicker* If only he had been more like Obama.
 
apdst said:
Good luck proving President Trump knew it was illegal, if it is even illegal.
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You have point. Most people in the known world already believe Trump is fecking moron and there is quite a bit of documentation to back it up. Why in the hell would Trump know anything is illegal? Apparently everyone working around him often must tell Trump that something he wants to do is illegal.

On the other hand Trump has reminded the world on numerous occasions that he is a genius. Maybe we should start a thread listing every time Trump has said that he knows more than anyone about ...pick something.

In the end it all cancels out except for Trump knowing more than anyone about history. Trump is historically ignorant. (See how I did that? :2razz:) Trump apparently has no idea what caused Nixon's resignation.
 
JasperL said:
In the Cohen case, he is because he eventually, and fraudulently, repaid Cohen's campaign advance through bogus retainer fees paid from his company accounts, to take care of what he will have to swear is a "personal" matter.

Although to be complete, it's not clear who paid those fees - Trump's personal trust or one of his companies. What's also not clear is if he deducted the payments as business deductions, for either entity. If he did, that's another problem.
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From the sentencing statement
At the instruction of an executive for the Company, Cohen sent monthly invoices to the
Company for these $35,000 payments, falsely indicating that the invoices were being sent pursuant
to a “retainer agreement.” The Company then falsely accounted for these payments as “legal
expenses.” In fact, no such retainer agreement existed and these payments were not “legal
expenses” – Cohen in fact provided negligible legal services to Individual-1 or the Company in
2017 – but were reimbursement payments. Cohen then received the $420,000 during the course
of 2017.
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It's not clear how or if AMI got repaid. So it's not obvious Trump will be implicated unless there is evidence putting him in the loop. Seems implausible they pay off a bimbo without telling him the details, and making sure, you know, he knows who she is and they're not paying a bogus claim, but what they can prove isn't known to me...
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Again, from the sentencing statement
Between August 2016 and September 2016, Cohen agreed with Chairman-1 to assign the
rights to the non-disclosure portion of Corporation-1’s agreement with Woman-1 to Cohen for
$125,000. Cohen then incorporated a shell entity called “Resolution Consultants LLC” to be used
in the transaction. Both Chairman-1 and Cohen ultimately signed the agreement, and a consultant
for Corporation-1, using his own shell entity, provided Cohen with an invoice for the payment of
Case 1:18-cr-00602-WHP Document 27 Filed 12/07/18 Page 14 of 40
13
$125,000. That assignment was never completed, however. (PSR ¶¶ 43-44).
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Basically, Cohen signed an agreement with AMI to purchase the rights to MacDougals story for $125k, but Cohen never paid even though he had received $420k for the whole Daniels affair. These crooks were breaking the law and cheating on each other at the same time

images
 
bubbabgone said:
Does any of your hypothetical have Trump on tape saying "This time the only reason I'm paying off is because of the campaign?"
It really doesn't matter what Cohen or Pecker thought the reason was.
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Are tapes the only evidence accepted in court now? I suspect when all factors put together including all three of them in the room and the fact that on at least one other occasion Cohen and Trump are on tape discussing doing the same thing for Stormy Daniels, that the prosecutors will feel they have a pretty solid case for intentionally paying bribes to help the campaign.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/ju...h-money-discussions-nbc-news-confirms-n947536

We can keep moving the goalpost till we get up to Trump blurting it out live on national TV (watch this space, he's done that before too), but in the end it will not be up to a bunch of chin waggers on an internet chat forum to prove or disprove his guilt.
 
MrShangles said:
I haven’t seen anything wrong with his policies, my wallet is full, maybe liberals should stop bitching and fill your pockets, we haven’t had this great of an economy that I’ve ever remembered, and I’m one of those old white deplorable red necks,
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Trump's performance on the economy, no matter how great or poor, has no bearing on whether or not he has committed a campaign finance felony.
 
Why does anyone who acts supposedly ethically need a "fixer?"
 
JasperL said:
Trump didn't pay off the women - that was done by Cohen and AMI.
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With Trump in the room during the planning of it, according to the guilty pleas.
 
JasperL said:
Trump didn't pay off the women - that was done by Cohen and AMI.
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At Trump's direction.

The denials are laughable. The man is a felon. He's been caught.
 
apdst said:
Good luck proving President Trump knew it was illegal, if it is even illegal.
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Did you know that saying "I didn't know what I did was against the law!" isn't a legal defense? Our laws apply regardless and I'm not sure why you think the president should be able to break our laws without consequence.
 
sangha said:
Yes, in a way similar to how Nixon did not pay any money to the Watergate burglars, but was implicated in the payoff
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Burglary is illegal, hush money isn't necessarily illegal.
 
uptower said:
Are tapes the only evidence accepted in court now? I suspect when all factors put together including all three of them in the room and the fact that on at least one other occasion Cohen and Trump are on tape discussing doing the same thing for Stormy Daniels, that the prosecutors will feel they have a pretty solid case for intentionally paying bribes to help the campaign.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/ju...h-money-discussions-nbc-news-confirms-n947536

We can keep moving the goalpost till we get up to Trump blurting it out live on national TV (watch this space, he's done that before too), but in the end it will not be up to a bunch of chin waggers on an internet chat forum to prove or disprove his guilt.
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Again, hush money isn't illegal.
There's gotta be something besides a Cohen-said-so that shows Trump paid off the babes for one reason only - the campaign.
 
upsideguy said:
You realize its actually MOST of the country that feels that way.... liberal, democrat, most independents and some Republicans (and ex-Republicans). 54% of America thinks he is UNFIT for office (that is not a job approval, that is the population that thinks he is incompetent), while 59% already want a new President in 2021.

Trump has no one to blame but himself for that. He could have been everyone's president but instead he chose to serve only a minority of Americans. Hence, only a minority of Americans think he is doing a good job and a majority thinks he is incompetent (again, not just a bad job ... can't do the job).

The "grace" I was referring to is people being willing to give him some presumption on innocence. That is also pretty much gone. Most of America also believes Trump is guilty of one or more crimes.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/29/politics/trump-russia-polls/index.html

...and this was a year ago, before indictments starting flying.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/02/poll-trump-crime-russia-244
https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/12/05/donald-trump-is-guilty/470
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Oh no not a story from CNN, it must be true, idiots lol


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bubbabgone said:
Again, hush money isn't illegal.
There's gotta be something besides a Cohen-said-so that shows Trump paid off the babes for one reason only - the campaign.
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One reason only - the campaign. --- That's the exact case that Mueller is making. And you can bet the bank that he has much more than just Cohen's statements.
 
danarhea said:
With Trump in the room during the planning of it, according to the guilty pleas.
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I agree, but a big part of the whole problem is Trump DIDN'T use his own money to make the payments. Cohen and AMI were basically charged with violating campaign finance laws.
 
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