Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behaviors?

[Henrin]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

Well if I tell a gay man I am only into women and he still continues then it becomes rude.

Agreed.

 

[Hypersonic]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

I think we've been over this. Of course it would be... just as it would be rude if a woman tells you she is not interested and you continue. This is NOT an LGBT issue. It's an issue within the individual.

As I mentioned earlier there seems to be this Freudian idea that all men are inherently sexually attracted to each other (accessing the primal aspect of self) which makes the whole "don't knock it until you try it" aspect of it. Like many "thirsty men" towards women there are those that continue to pursue despite being told otherwise. Sure, it can be an individual issue but if I put the whole "don't knock it until you try it" along with encounters by gay men on several occasions in which I've clearly displayed no interested I can't seem to think this is just an isolated phenomenon.

 

[Hypersonic]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

What makes these "situations" dangerous?
Of course people shouldn't be killed for their orientation, but this sounds like you are saying that murder is justified because you an unscrupulous straight person didn't ask the right questions.

this all sounds like you are blaming the victim. At what point does it end, should you be forced to confess anything else? People have killed their lovers over other things. Should we make people disclose those things also?

I have the perfect solution, lock up violent criminals. If"invading ones space" is justification to beat them up you have a serious antisocial issue.

The people that can simply say, "no thanks I am not gay" are the example. No excuse exists for somebody beating up another person over words.

I am sorry i agree that gay people and straight people should have a dialogue, but defending murderers and assailants its no way to form that dialogue. Rethink your statement, because it seems like you are saying that gay people get beat up because things they do.

Look I just twenty minuets ago was asked out by a lady, i didn't beat the crap out of her, I didn't murder her, i wasn't even rude to her, I simply said that i am with somebody. If i was single i would have said I was gay and had no interest in dating a female. Why is that so hard?

I have had numerous ladies think they can make me straight, I don't have to get violent i dint even have to be rude? Why in the hell can't others do that? There are far more straight women out there than gay men, I guarantee you this has happened to me far more times than it does to you. I don't piss and moan about it.

"no thanks you are not the right gender for me" said it a thousand times. I can say it a million more it doesn't hurt offend or even bother me. The ladies that insist that i can't possibly be gay and will not leave it alone do irritate me at times, or the ones that cry. But its no skin off my back.

Sorry i fail to see what you are complaining about.

Quoting bold in order:

1) A transsexual not disclosing their sexual interest (or orientation) to an individual who have the understanding that they are dating someone of that biological sex may have an unpredictable reaction. Most men (including myself) would try and restrain themselves from doing physical harm. There is a psychological phenomenon where there is a feeling of deceit and a possible question of their own sexuality. Similarly, if one abstains from telling an individual their pre or post op nature, the results can be negative. In the link I provided there is also a link within that blog that apparently shows a list of transgender killings in relation to a failure of disclosure. As I mentioned with the STD example, if a woman discloses to me later on in life that she has been living with Herpes Simplex 2, that would be devastating for me as I now have contracted a disease from a dishonest person and now, I'm in a psychological state where I may (or may not) feel at least in that moment I have much to live for.

2) For the last time I'm not blaming the victim, however we live in an unpredictable world and therefore if we choose to be in long lasting relationships we need to be honest about ourselves as much as possible if we want to maintain an honest relationship with the one we choose to be with. As the link I listed pointed out, "if a person truly loves you, it doesn't matter who you are to them because they accept you for you." If by disclosing yourself as transgendered will cause the person to move on cause he or she is not attracted to a transsexual then so be it, you move on. But it is risky to not disclose who you are (or were) because despite the person whom you're dealing with seems sweet, they could take a disclosure of this kind in an extreme way. I think on any loving relationship one ought to display a level of trust by opening up and demonstrating a willingness to share intimate things to their partner as I think this is healthy. Some women will often relay stories of them being raped as a young kid to their partner because they have a sense of trust in that person. But I think when it comes to things like "dealbreakers" especially if the person with the secret knows of the possibility that by relaying the information they may lose the person, I believe these things need to be said rather than being refrained from.

3) You know, a lot of people on this board are too sensitive and there seems to be a lack of laziness when it comes to understanding. We don't all have to agree and that is good because it makes different opinions interesting, but what shows intellectual ignorance is to completely skim over my points because you disagree. Ok fine you disagree with my view, but it shows a certain amount of disrespect towards me when I have to repeatedly say "I'm not blaming the victim." I think most of you guys on these boards may live in small cities and your perspective is perhaps shaped by your worldviews from that perspective, but me living in Los Angeles I'm very much exposed to a wide variety of perspectives (not saying you are) but I know as a Californian despite my state being very liberal on certain issues, there are many people in various sectors of this society especially in the inner cities where there are innate homophobic feelings. Hence is my warning, not condoning, of the violence that ensues.

Your perception of being approached is different than some, and despite your oversensitive response here I'm on the same level as you. As you failed to read on the first couple pages I find no offense in being approached, I find it offensive when I am being pursued after I have respectfully informed the individual that I'm not gay then that is when I become defensive. I've done this to women as well but I think since I didn't disclose HOW these men pursued men you seem to think their response is like "oh ok dude no problem" apparently having been told "hey I'll be your bottom bitch" enough times especially when it is coworkers can be quite annoying but alas I'm sure my experiences will count for nothing for you.

As far as the ladies thing, um yeah bro I highly doubt that very very much.

 

[Hypersonic]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

This sounds an awful lot like telling women to dress more modestly so that she doesn't encourage rape. Nobody owes you an explanation, or to be super sensitive to avoid offending your heterosexual sensibilities. If you get offended, that's on you. It only way it's not is if someone is deliberately trying to antagonize you, which none of your examples are doing. They're just being regular people looking for some human connection. Your homophobia is not for them to "be conscious" of.

So I'm homophobic now because I don't like being pursued after I respectfully tell someone I'm not interested? That is really ridiculous. I'll tell you what since we are on the idea of ridiculous beliefs, have you read have the crap that is written in the general section thread about people who are "impoverished or the inner city?" I'm inclined to think there are quite a few racists on this board based on their viewpoints, sounds ridiculous right? I'm justified in my own ignorance just to satisfy my ego by generalizing someones comment when in fact they could be coming from a limited perspective, heh ok.

 

[Hypersonic]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

Your experiences are irrelevant if you are discussing what needs to occur with the LGBT community. You are overgeneralizing. Your experiences may be based on your perceptions which make them skewed.

Further your focus was on the LGBT community to "fix" this issue. It is not their charge. It is the charge of BOTH communities since the issue involves both of them.



I explained that both of those things would be deceptive and wrong. However, any physical consequences that occur, if physical action has not been taken first, is the sole responsibility of the attacker.



Right. Anecdotal... as I thought. Do try to NOT present as fact things that have no factual basis at all. That's what you did, inferring that those in the LGBT community are less than trustworthy. No evidence, not cool, though I do appreciate you backing off from the claim.

As far as the blog goes, not telling a partner is deceptive and wrong. And has no justification for any violence.

Going in order (bold post)

1) My experiences matter to me because for one, I'm the one experiencing them, and two they're not skewed because I'm the one experiencing them. This is the part where you say "I respectfully disagree" because if our experiences are irrelevant then nothing within our life really matters. Truth becomes truth to the observer as they observer whatever phenomena they experience. Who are you to discount my experiences as ridiculous simply because you disagree? Not only is that position arrogant but foolish.

2) I agree. A violent response towards someone who became deceptive is not the way but then again sometimes people don't respond rationally hence is why earlier I said that the world is unpredictable. We cannot assume people will act rationally especially when they were deceived, all we can do is hope they do not commit person retribution for being wronged. As in the STD example let me use HIV. Let's say I have sex with a woman who has HIV a woman who I plan on marrying yet she knows she has HIV but refrains from telling me and her intent on refraining from telling me is because some man gave it to her so she is getting "all men back for giving her a death sentence." Although contracting HIV is not a death sentence thanks to medicine to someone who knows they have an incurable disease they may not think that way in that moment.

I don't know about you but I don't know too many men who would just remain rational especially if someone deceived them on that kind of level especially if that person's intention was to give the disease to as many men as possibly on the pretense that she received it. In that example there is some half truth there because there is a woman I believe you can find her on youtube who is a prostitute and did in fact do that and admitted it on video. Her intent was to sentence as many men as possible because she received the virus.


3) The premise of this thread made no factual claims and in fact within the paragraph in my first post I said "on a personal level," but perhaps I made myself unclear. When I numbered those claims I should've stated the phrase "in my experience" because you're right what is true to me is not true to someone else but in no way was the premise stating a fact, rather something that is true to me. If you read the subsequent post after that you would see that, but alas you were reading with emotion and not your rational mind.

 

[Hypersonic]

Re: Should mmunity start taking responsibility in certain deviant behaviors?

Of course. Anyone that thinks something special be done for homosexuals who hit on heterosexual people, need to have their heads examined.

You turn them down like you would anyone else that comes onto you that you aren't interested in.

Seems pretty simple to me.

So is reading, but I'm encountering that it has become difficult for a great many of you. The keyword is persistence, of those individuals who have been told. I think you missed that part.

 

[CLAX1911]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

I know where you're getting at. I try not to succumb to stereotyping of people of other cultures however I guess living in California and being exposed to the various gays from all walks of life there are common behaviors and a dead giveaway is usage of the phrase "My partner" therefore with having to say "BTW I am heterosexual" in casual discussion I normally indicate either having a girlfriend, dating a cute woman feom work, or desiring to have kids with the 'right woman' if I meet one." I think common sense by my phrasing those desires would indicate I am.

If they are talking about their partners they definitely aren't hitting on you.

 

[CLAX1911]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

Quoting bold in order:

1) A transsexual not disclosing their sexual interest (or orientation) to an individual who have the understanding that they are dating someone of that biological sex may have an unpredictable reaction. Most men (including myself) would try and restrain themselves from doing physical harm. There is a psychological phenomenon where there is a feeling of deceit and a possible question of their own sexuality. Similarly, if one abstains from telling an individual their pre or post op nature, the results can be negative. In the link I provided there is also a link within that blog that apparently shows a list of transgender killings in relation to a failure of disclosure. As I mentioned with the STD example, if a woman discloses to me later on in life that she has been living with Herpes Simplex 2, that would be devastating for me as I now have contracted a disease from a dishonest person and now, I'm in a psychological state where I may (or may not) feel at least in that moment I have much to live for.

its very different to be infected with a disease that Errol cause you a life time of pain verses kiss a woman that used to be male. This is a terrible analogy.

2) For the last time I'm not blaming the victim, however we live in an unpredictable world and therefore if we choose to be in long lasting relationships we need to be honest about ourselves as much as possible if we want to maintain an honest relationship with the one we choose to be with. As the link I listed pointed out, "if a person truly loves you, it doesn't matter who you are to them because they accept you for you." If by disclosing yourself as transgendered will cause the person to move on cause he or she is not attracted to a transsexual then so be it, you move on. But it is risky to not disclose who you are (or were) because despite the person whom you're dealing with seems sweet, they could take a disclosure of this kind in an extreme way. I think on any loving relationship one ought to display a level of trust by opening up and demonstrating a willingness to share intimate things to their partner as I think this is healthy. Some women will often relay stories of them being raped as a young kid to their partner because they have a sense of trust in that person. But I think when it comes to things like "dealbreakers" especially if the person with the secret knows of the possibility that by relaying the information they may lose the person, I believe these things need to be said rather than being refrained from.

trusting a loving partner is one thing, but how would you feel about disclosing something like that to a complete stranger, that is what you are when you first meet. Now of after a few dates a person says they are Trans than you should walk away if you can't handle that. If you react violently you should be locked up, period. We don't tolerate that crap in civilized society

3) You know, a lot of people on this board are too sensitive and there seems to be a lack of laziness when it comes to understanding. We don't all have to agree and that is good because it makes different opinions interesting, but what shows intellectual ignorance is to completely skim over my points because you disagree. Ok fine you disagree with my view, but it shows a certain amount of disrespect towards me when I have to repeatedly say "I'm not blaming the victim." I think most of you guys on these boards may live in small cities and your perspective is perhaps shaped by your worldviews from that perspective, but me living in Los Angeles I'm very much exposed to a wide variety of perspectives (not saying you are) but I know as a Californian despite my state being very liberal on certain issues, there are many people in various sectors of this society especially in the inner cities where there are innate homophobic feelings. Hence is my warning, not condoning, of the violence that ensues.

Its disrespectful to me to say I am too sensitive because your argument is contradictory.

You are blaming the victim and saying you aren't is intellectually disrespectful toward me and everybody else on this board, so get off of your high horse.

Your perception of being approached is different than some, and despite your oversensitive response here I'm on the same level as you. As you failed to read on the first couple pages I find no offense in being approached, I find it offensive when I am being pursued after I have respectfully informed the individual that I'm not gay then that is when I become defensive. I've done this to women as well but I think since I didn't disclose HOW these men pursued men you seem to think their response is like "oh ok dude no problem" apparently having been told "hey I'll be your bottom bitch" enough times especially when it is coworkers can be quite annoying but alas I'm sure my experiences will count for nothing for you.

your experience does count for something, that is highly inappropriate, but you along with every other person on planet earth had to deal with it. I had one lady at my former position that insisted she could "bang me straight." She really liked me at first I worked with her in very close quarters, we were friends until I told her I was gay, she was pissed. She should have moved on but she spread rumors about me in the company, said I was sleeping with an under aged guy and all sorts of crap. So I know how that feels but I am die based on the last statement you made that you don't believe me, frankly I could give a **** what you believe. My point is this isn't an lgbt issue, this is called sexual harassment and it occurs on all fronts.

I was sexually harassed by a straight guy on Wednesday night, he was a husband of one of my coworkers. Once I told him i was gay he backed off and then explained how open minded he was. He was joking, but still this man touched me, he physically put hands on me.

As far as the ladies thing, um yeah bro I highly doubt that very very much.

I don't believe you about the bottom bitch thing, :shrug:
I don't care the least what you do and don't believe. Just because you don't believe this kind of thing happens to anybody but you doesn't mean that is true

Talk about being sensitive, this whole thread has been your overtly sensitive reacting to being sexually harassed at work and not only are you blaming the person that harassed you you are holding the entirety of people that are the same orientation reasonable. Talk to human resources about it, tell that jerk to respect you, call the police, dint expect the entire lgbt community to take the fall because you are being harassed by a gay guy.

And stop blaming the victim and in the same breath saying your not blaming the victim. That devastates your credibility. Just realize there is absolutely no excuse for violence against somebody for doing something so harmless to somebody, and quit acting as though it is at all comparable to contacting an illness, what an utterly bigoted homophobic thing to say.

 

[Henrin]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

its very different to be infected with a disease that Errol cause you a life time of pain verses kiss a woman that used to be male. This is a terrible analogy.

They still are a man and I have no interest in men. It's pretty straight forward what the problem is in kissing them.

trusting a loving partner is one thing, but how would you feel about disclosing something like that to a complete stranger, that is what you are when you first meet. Now of after a few dates a person says they are Trans than you should walk away if you can't handle that. If you react violently you should be locked up, period. We don't tolerate that crap in civilized society

I'm on a date with them looking for a partner. They better tell me on the first date. We shouldn't tolerate fraud either, but low and behold they don't get anything done to them when they deceive people into sleeping with them. Go figure.

I guess it's fine to lead people along for a few dates because you feel uncomfortable though. Really, what a complete load of bull****.

 

[CLAX1911]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

They still are a man and I have no interest in men. It's pretty straight forward what the problem is in kissing them.

Maybe you don't like the lines being blurred, that is perfectly okay, you need to beware. Its on you the risks in dating, have always been there.

I'm on a date with them looking for a partner. They better tell me on the first date. We shouldn't tolerate fraud either, but low and behold they don't get anything done to them when they deceive people into sleeping with them. Go figure.

Why don't you ask them if they are mtf? Why is it the other person's sole responsibility to inform you?

I guess it's fine to lead people along for a few dates because you feel uncomfortable though. Really, what a complete load of bull****.

No, it isn't fine to be lead on, i have been lead on, it hurts very badly and I agree that it is BS. But you know what i did when I was lead on? I told the person to beat it. I didn't kill them or beat them up because that isn't the right thing to do.

Sometimes life isn't fair and someone takes you for a sap, I admit it, I was a fool to believe that someone actually loved me or was who they said they were. But raging about it doesn't fix it. Walking away and starting over is the only way to get out of it.

Just walk away, its easy

 

[Henrin]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

Maybe you don't like the lines being blurred, that is perfectly okay, you need to beware. Its on you the risks in dating, have always been there.

This wasn't always a problem.

Why don't you ask them if they are mtf? Why is it the other person's sole responsibility to inform you?

Because they are presenting themselves as female when they are not. Is that not reason enough? If you're not female and you know the other person believes that you are it's your responsibility to clear that up.

No, it isn't fine to be lead on, i have been lead on, it hurts very badly and I agree that it is BS. But you know what i did when I was lead on? I told the person to beat it. I didn't kill them or beat them up because that isn't the right thing to do.

Then what do they get out of leading people on? Why sell yourself off as something you're not for a few dates only to find out they don't accept you for who you are? Why not just be honest with someone instead of hurting them and yourself because you failed to do so? If transgenders really want to be proud of who they are they shouldn't have a problem with telling people and if they are good people they should realize what is wrong with starting a relationship based entirely on a lie.

Sometimes life isn't fair and someone takes you for a sap, I admit it, I was a fool to believe that someone actually loved me or was who they said they were. But raging about it doesn't fix it. Walking away and starting over is the only way to get out of it.

You're bisexual so perhaps you don't fully understand what is wrong with passing yourself off as the wrong sex in a sexual relationship, but believe me it's justified to hurt them. It just is.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

Sorry, but if someone deceives me in such a fashion I will have my justice.

Interesting for someone who believes in natural rights you seem very happy to violate them.

I never asked you what you thought about it and I don't care if you approve.

You caring has no impact on whether I comment or not.

My actions would be the actions that many men would take in those shoes and regardless of what you think those actions are justified. Someone that acts in such a fashion towards someone else DESERVES justice and since the state will not assist in carrying that justice out you know what will happen. Deal with it.

This is nothing but your opinion and has no basis in fact. "Deserves" is pretty irrelevant if we are talking about personal responsibility. Therefore your opinion on this is meaningless. Deal with it.

Everyone here knows what will happen and most transgenders accept the idea they better be honest. The only person living in fairytale world is you where you think deceiving someone into a sexual relationship is not a punishable offense. It is and deservedly so.

No, deception in this case is not a punishable offense. Anyone not living in a fairytale world where they do not have to take responsibility for their behaviors would understand this... except you it seems. What you think is deserved is meaningless, as I told you.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

As I mentioned earlier there seems to be this Freudian idea that all men are inherently sexually attracted to each other (accessing the primal aspect of self) which makes the whole "don't knock it until you try it" aspect of it. Like many "thirsty men" towards women there are those that continue to pursue despite being told otherwise. Sure, it can be an individual issue but if I put the whole "don't knock it until you try it" along with encounters by gay men on several occasions in which I've clearly displayed no interested I can't seem to think this is just an isolated phenomenon.

Anecdotal evidence again.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

Quoting bold in order:

1) A transsexual not disclosing their sexual interest (or orientation) to an individual who have the understanding that they are dating someone of that biological sex may have an unpredictable reaction. Most men (including myself) would try and restrain themselves from doing physical harm. There is a psychological phenomenon where there is a feeling of deceit and a possible question of their own sexuality. Similarly, if one abstains from telling an individual their pre or post op nature, the results can be negative. In the link I provided there is also a link within that blog that apparently shows a list of transgender killings in relation to a failure of disclosure. As I mentioned with the STD example, if a woman discloses to me later on in life that she has been living with Herpes Simplex 2, that would be devastating for me as I now have contracted a disease from a dishonest person and now, I'm in a psychological state where I may (or may not) feel at least in that moment I have much to live for.

2) For the last time I'm not blaming the victim, however we live in an unpredictable world and therefore if we choose to be in long lasting relationships we need to be honest about ourselves as much as possible if we want to maintain an honest relationship with the one we choose to be with. As the link I listed pointed out, "if a person truly loves you, it doesn't matter who you are to them because they accept you for you." If by disclosing yourself as transgendered will cause the person to move on cause he or she is not attracted to a transsexual then so be it, you move on. But it is risky to not disclose who you are (or were) because despite the person whom you're dealing with seems sweet, they could take a disclosure of this kind in an extreme way. I think on any loving relationship one ought to display a level of trust by opening up and demonstrating a willingness to share intimate things to their partner as I think this is healthy. Some women will often relay stories of them being raped as a young kid to their partner because they have a sense of trust in that person. But I think when it comes to things like "dealbreakers" especially if the person with the secret knows of the possibility that by relaying the information they may lose the person, I believe these things need to be said rather than being refrained from.

3) You know, a lot of people on this board are too sensitive and there seems to be a lack of laziness when it comes to understanding. We don't all have to agree and that is good because it makes different opinions interesting, but what shows intellectual ignorance is to completely skim over my points because you disagree. Ok fine you disagree with my view, but it shows a certain amount of disrespect towards me when I have to repeatedly say "I'm not blaming the victim." I think most of you guys on these boards may live in small cities and your perspective is perhaps shaped by your worldviews from that perspective, but me living in Los Angeles I'm very much exposed to a wide variety of perspectives (not saying you are) but I know as a Californian despite my state being very liberal on certain issues, there are many people in various sectors of this society especially in the inner cities where there are innate homophobic feelings. Hence is my warning, not condoning, of the violence that ensues.

Your perception of being approached is different than some, and despite your oversensitive response here I'm on the same level as you. As you failed to read on the first couple pages I find no offense in being approached, I find it offensive when I am being pursued after I have respectfully informed the individual that I'm not gay then that is when I become defensive. I've done this to women as well but I think since I didn't disclose HOW these men pursued men you seem to think their response is like "oh ok dude no problem" apparently having been told "hey I'll be your bottom bitch" enough times especially when it is coworkers can be quite annoying but alas I'm sure my experiences will count for nothing for you.

As far as the ladies thing, um yeah bro I highly doubt that very very much.

Actually, the problem here is with how you post. You present opinions and personal experiences as if they are facts and universal experiences. Neither are true. You make a lot of assumptions without any substantiation and then get defensive and upset when challenged. This is what I see as the issue with people having difficulty with what you are saying.

 

[CLAX1911]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

This wasn't always a problem.

It is now. The genie is out of the bottle.

Because they are presenting themselves as female when they are not. Is that not reason enough? If you're not female and you know the other person believes that you are it's your responsibility to clear that up.

They are female to them, no matter how you define the genders its their belief that they are female. Perhaps it falls on you to define what a female is.

Then what do they get out of leading people on? Why sell yourself off as something you're not for a few dates only to find out they don't accept you for who you are? Why not just be honest with someone instead of hurting them and yourself because you failed to do so? If transgenders really want to be proud of who they are they shouldn't have a problem with telling people and if they are good people they should realize what is wrong with starting a relationship based entirely on a lie.

I completely agree, they should be honest and forthright. Some people are okay with transgender spouses others aren't. It would behoove them to be honest. I would walk out on one that lied to me. But they shouldn't be hurt or killed because they suck at dating.

You're bisexual so perhaps you don't fully understand what is wrong with passing yourself off as the wrong sex in a sexual relationship, but believe me it's justified to hurt them. It just is.

No i completely understand that straight people don't like people of the same sex, no matter how its defined.

Its a lie and it hurts, i understand. But if you murder or assult a person for lying to you you will wind up in jail if you think its okay and the legal system is wrong that makes you either antisocial or a vigilanty, either way you pose a danger to the peace.

Its never right to hurt someone fur this, just walk away, that is so much easier. What is the value in vengeance?

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

Going in order (bold post)

1) My experiences matter to me because for one, I'm the one experiencing them, and two they're not skewed because I'm the one experiencing them. This is the part where you say "I respectfully disagree" because if our experiences are irrelevant then nothing within our life really matters. Truth becomes truth to the observer as they observer whatever phenomena they experience. Who are you to discount my experiences as ridiculous simply because you disagree? Not only is that position arrogant but foolish.

No, your perceptions are skewed by your beliefs. Each of us experiences life individually. Two people can have different experiences to the same event. If you are trying to prove a position, you need more than just your experience. OK... so you've told us what you experience. Guess what? Beyond YOU it's pretty meaningless.

2) I agree. A violent response towards someone who became deceptive is not the way but then again sometimes people don't respond rationally hence is why earlier I said that the world is unpredictable. We cannot assume people will act rationally especially when they were deceived, all we can do is hope they do not commit person retribution for being wronged. As in the STD example let me use HIV. Let's say I have sex with a woman who has HIV a woman who I plan on marrying yet she knows she has HIV but refrains from telling me and her intent on refraining from telling me is because some man gave it to her so she is getting "all men back for giving her a death sentence." Although contracting HIV is not a death sentence thanks to medicine to someone who knows they have an incurable disease they may not think that way in that moment.

I don't know about you but I don't know too many men who would just remain rational especially if someone deceived them on that kind of level especially if that person's intention was to give the disease to as many men as possibly on the pretense that she received it. In that example there is some half truth there because there is a woman I believe you can find her on youtube who is a prostitute and did in fact do that and admitted it on video. Her intent was to sentence as many men as possible because she received the virus.

And I know plenty of men who wouldn't haul off and kill her. There's my experience... just as valid as yours.

Now, what you are saying is that because YOU believe that you and those you know would not act rationally, it is important for the LGBT community to discuss how they convince people who are transgendered to be less deceitful. What I am saying is that because you and those you know would not act rationally it is important for the straight community to discuss how they can convince people to learn to control their behaviors and not react violently to things.

See how that works?

3) The premise of this thread made no factual claims and in fact within the paragraph in my first post I said "on a personal level," but perhaps I made myself unclear. When I numbered those claims I should've stated the phrase "in my experience" because you're right what is true to me is not true to someone else but in no way was the premise stating a fact, rather something that is true to me. If you read the subsequent post after that you would see that, but alas you were reading with emotion and not your rational mind.

I was reading your phrasing. You made a universal suggestion based on a personal experience. That's poor phrasing. Not my fault that you wrote things poorly.

 

[X Factor]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

its very different to be infected with a disease that Errol cause you a life time of pain verses kiss a woman that used to be male. This is a terrible analogy.
trusting a loving partner is one thing, but how would you feel about disclosing something like that to a complete stranger, that is what you are when you first meet. Now of after a few dates a person says they are Trans than you should walk away if you can't handle that. If you react violently you should be locked up, period. We don't tolerate that crap in civilized society

Its disrespectful to me to say I am too sensitive because your argument is contradictory.

You are blaming the victim and saying you aren't is intellectually disrespectful toward me and everybody else on this board, so get off of your high horse.
your experience does count for something, that is highly inappropriate, but you along with every other person on planet earth had to deal with it. I had one lady at my former position that insisted she could "bang me straight." She really liked me at first I worked with her in very close quarters, we were friends until I told her I was gay, she was pissed. She should have moved on but she spread rumors about me in the company, said I was sleeping with an under aged guy and all sorts of crap. So I know how that feels but I am die based on the last statement you made that you don't believe me, frankly I could give a **** what you believe. My point is this isn't an lgbt issue, this is called sexual harassment and it occurs on all fronts.

I was sexually harassed by a straight guy on Wednesday night, he was a husband of one of my coworkers. Once I told him i was gay he backed off and then explained how open minded he was. He was joking, but still this man touched me, he physically put hands on me.

I don't believe you about the bottom bitch thing, :shrug:
I don't care the least what you do and don't believe. Just because you don't believe this kind of thing happens to anybody but you doesn't mean that is true

Talk about being sensitive, this whole thread has been your overtly sensitive reacting to being sexually harassed at work and not only are you blaming the person that harassed you you are holding the entirety of people that are the same orientation reasonable. Talk to human resources about it, tell that jerk to respect you, call the police, dint expect the entire lgbt community to take the fall because you are being harassed by a gay guy.

And stop blaming the victim and in the same breath saying your not blaming the victim. That devastates your credibility. Just realize there is absolutely no excuse for violence against somebody for doing something so harmless to somebody, and quit acting as though it is at all comparable to contacting an illness, what an utterly bigoted homophobic thing to say.

I can't deny that a gay guy expressing interest in me makes me really uncomfortable. To be really honest and I'll only speak for myself, I'd like to believe I exude such obvious...uh...straightness that gay guys would know immediately not to hit on me. It kind of ruins that illusion I like to have of myself when I'm hit up by a gay man (not saying that happens a lot). I recognize that that's a silly hang up that's my problem, not anyone else's. Just being real.

 

[Henrin]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

It is now. The genie is out of the bottle.

Only because the surgery got to the point where it can deceive and hormone therapy came to be a reality. If that never happened the issue would be exactly where it used to be and none of this would be an issue.

They are female to them, no matter how you define the genders its their belief that they are female. Perhaps it falls on you to define what a female is.

Everyone here knows that straight men are looking for someone that was born with the sex and gender classification of female. I have no reason to believe they don't understand this.

I completely agree, they should be honest and forthright. Some people are okay with transgender spouses others aren't. It would behoove them to be honest. I would walk out on one that lied to me. But they shouldn't be hurt or killed because they suck at dating.

That would depend on how far along it went. If it was the first date no one was hurt and there is no reason to act, but if it went far enough justice is in order. Sorry.

No i completely understand that straight people don't like people of the same sex, no matter how its defined.

Its a lie and it hurts, i understand. But if you murder or assult a person for lying to you you will wind up in jail if you think its okay and the legal system is wrong that makes you either antisocial or a virginity, either way you pose a danger to the peace.

I will do what I said just like many other men have done that actually lived through it. I never said I was entirely sane and I never said that I'm not anti-social, but this here has nothing to do with a problem of mine.

Its never right to hurt someone fur this, just walk away, that is so much easier. What is the value in vengeance?

In this case? Everything. I want justice served one way or the other and when the state will not stand up against fraud, I will. It's that simple.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

I will do what I said just like many other men have done that actually lived through it. I never said I was entirely sane and I never said that I'm not anti-social, but this here has nothing to do with a problem of mine.

Actually it does. If you are not entirely sane and you are anti-social, your reactions to what occurred are based on that... making those reactions YOUR responsibility.

In this case? Everything. I want justice served one way or the other and when the state will not stand up against fraud, I will. It's that simple.

And then I'm sure you will take responsibility for this behavior and when law enforcement approaches you, you will admit that what you did.

 

[Henrin]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

Actually it does. If you are not entirely sane and you are anti-social, your reactions to what occurred are based on that... making those reactions YOUR responsibility.

I wonder if I could pass off as insane. Something tells me I would fail.

And then I'm sure you will take responsibility for this behavior and when law enforcement approaches you, you will admit that what you did.

No, I will not confess to anything. I will only plead the fifth and sit there. I have no reason to say anything to them.

 

[CLAX1911]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

I can't deny that a gay guy expressing interest in me makes me really uncomfortable. To be really honest and I'll only speak for myself, I'd like to believe I exude such obvious...uh...straightness that gay guys would know immediately not to hit on me. It kind of ruins that illusion I like to have of myself when I'm hit up by a gay man (not saying that happens a lot). I recognize that that's a silly hang up that's my problem, not anyone else's. Just being real.

Well there is no real way to tell if a guy is gay, there is no vibe that you give off, no real aura. The things that a gay man is attracted to is the same thing your girlfriend, wife, our potential girlfriend is attracted to. I am not saying take it as a complement, not at all. But dint think its because you are giving off gay vibes or any other clandestine magic that others pick up on. You just might be a desirable guy to those that desire guys. There are no real rules or social constructs for gay men in dating, its only recently that it has entered the culture. You can walk up and ask its nit considered rude, guys can be pretty or even sexually objectified. Its nothing new but its something that heterosexual men have issues with. I do understand that. Is that gay dude undressing me with his eyes? Is he attracted to me because i am pretty? I can understand how that bothers guys. But its nit because they think you are gay, its because you are a desirable person.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

I wonder if I could pass off as insane. Something tells me I would fail.

Oh, so your behaviors would be that of a sane man. That would make you responsible.

No, I will not confess to anything. I only plead the fifth and sit there. I have no reason to say anything to them.

So, you wouldn't take responsibility for your behaviors, Henrin? Why not? Under the law, you'd be culpable. You violated someone's rights... according to you, their NATURAL rights. Your behavior, your responsibility... but it seems like you'd prefer to not take responsibility for this behavior. This is very interesting information.

 

[sangha]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

I know this is controversial but by "deviant behavior" I'm referring to gays, lesbians, transgendered, targeting certain people who knowingly knows the person does not share their orientation. I call it deviate because such behaviors are a deviation from honesty with the intent to "don't knock it until you try it." There have been several hate crime attacks all because 1) The victim was not forthright with their orientation 2) The victim became the victim of circumstance because of the person was truly evil and homophobic. On a personal level I tend to run into this myself, and I just find it rude that gay men know I'm heterosexual but they push the issue. This is why I refrain from going to gay clubs because I'm sure there is one that would want to try and "turn me gay." So far with these hate crimes I'm not hearing anything from the community in being honest outright of their sexuality, because dishonesty is starting to get people killed.

If trying to get someone to engage in sexual activity with them, even though the other person has made it obvious that they have no interest in doing so, is "deviant" then many (most?) heterosexual men are deviant.

 

[Henrin]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

Oh, so your behaviors would be that of a sane man. That would make you responsible.

Yes, I couldn't use the insanity plea. Poor pitiful me.

So, you wouldn't take responsibility for your behaviors, Henrin? Why not? Under the law, you'd be culpable. You violated someone's rights... according to you, their NATURAL rights. Your behavior, your responsibility... but it seems like you'd prefer to not take responsibility for this behavior. This is very interesting information.

Why in the world would I confess to a crime? I have no interest in helping the state in their case against me. Since I would be guilty as sin the best course of action for me to take is to keep my mouth shut.

As for your argument, when they deceived me they violated my rights, so yes, my action was justified. I have no reason to feel sorry for my stance here.

 

[chromium]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

I see you like skimming over my point. I clearly and repetitively stated despite the circumstance it doesn't warrant death, but it is a bad idea to be deceitful

I saw it but your thread is based on "accept responsibility," which when people are beaten/killed comes off as nauseating. It's a short jump from there to the 'gay panic defense'.