Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behaviors?

[CaptainCourtesy]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

No it doesn't, but as an example where I live, if the defendant convinces the jury that they reacted with sudden passion (almost like diminished capacity) the punishment range goes from 5-99 years or life in prison to 2-20 years. That's a significant difference and I think it's an acknowledgment that reacting without thought is just a reality of being human.

This would be true in any situation where someone reacts impulsively. There is a difference between me killing someone in a fit of rage after they shot my dog and me killing someone after planning it for a month. Certainly different levels, but I am uncomfortable with any implication that the transgendered individual had any culpability in them being murdered. It's like blaming a rape victim for wearing very revealing clothing in a dangerous environment. Both are responsible for NOT being safe, but have no culpability in what another person did to them.

 

[TheGirlNextDoor]

Re: Should mmunity start taking responsibility in certain deviant behaviors?

How does this differ from heterosexual men "hitting on" women that have expressed no interest in them? Can you not politely, yet firmly, express your lack of desire for their continued sexual advances?

Of course. Anyone that thinks something special be done for homosexuals who hit on heterosexual people, need to have their heads examined.

You turn them down like you would anyone else that comes onto you that you aren't interested in.

Seems pretty simple to me.

 

[Redress]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

Otherwise it's fraud and should be treated as such.

Much like wearing padding, or lying on dates...

 

[chromium]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

No. As I clearly indicated, I avoid those clubs because there is a lack of regard for personal space, as I go by my own personal experience. I am flattered gay men are attracted to me, but it's one thing to be flattered by compliments, it's another to be pursued. I mean if I make references to boobs and ass and display no since of bicuriousity or homosexual tendencies that ought to be a clear indication to gay men that I am not homosexual or at least it ought to be.

Is this some great sacrifice on your part that you have to 'avoid' gay clubs? Yeah, there can be foolishness that precedes hate crime, but it's one thing to give PSA type warnings and another to say the victim 'had it coming.' No one deserves to be beaten and left at a fence to die, and with a lot of these attacks there's no provocation at all. I'm sure such advances annoy you, but these assaults don't happen unless there's hate behind it. I don't often make a point of shaming victims by saying they're responsible.

 

[X Factor]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

This would be true in any situation where someone reacts impulsively.

Very true. The common example is killing your wife's lover after walking in on them while they're in the sack.

There is a difference between me killing someone in a fit of rage after they shot my dog and me killing someone after planning it for a month.

Shoot, I'd see killing someone who shot your dog as being nearly fully justified. Ok, not really.

Certainly different levels, but I am uncomfortable with any implication that the transgendered individual had any culpability in them being murdered. It's like blaming a rape victim for wearing very revealing clothing in a dangerous environment. Both are responsible for NOT being safe, but have no culpability in what another person did to them.

This is always a tough topic. On one hand, of course, you never want to blame the victim. On the other, you have to be realistic about someone's own culpability in putting themselves in a bad or dangerous situation, like if I got knee walking drunk and started for home loudly proclaiming how much money I have in my pocket. I should be able to do that in complete safety but I'm not sure I would garner much sympathy if I ended up getting mugged.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

Very true. The common example is killing your wife's lover after walking in on them while they're in the sack.

Yup.

Shoot, I'd see killing someone who shot your dog as being nearly fully justified. Ok, not really.

:lol:

This is always a tough topic. On one hand, of course, you never want to blame the victim. On the other, you have to be realistic about someone's own culpability in putting themselves in a bad or dangerous situation, like if I got knee walking drunk and started for home loudly proclaiming how much money I have in my pocket. I should be able to do that in complete safety but I'm not sure I would garner much sympathy if I ended up getting mugged.

If this happened, here would be the responses:

X... you were really a frigging idiot to do that. Putting yourself in that situation was really stupid.
Mugger... you're going to jail.

No one gets jailed for being stupid or even acting stupid in many cases... unfortunately. :2razz: People get jailed for breaking the law.

Point is that your culpability would be being and acting stupid. That does not CAUSE someone to mug you. That is their responsibility.

 

[CLAX1911]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

My suggestion would be to have a discussion on the social issues afflicting the LGBT community not just discussing the reality of homophobia but also having the perspective of heterosexuals and discuss from a heterosexual perspective on factors which may contribute aggression and homophobia. Although I think homophobia is largely generated by ignorace, I also think there are certain people from within the community that put themselves in situations where it is dangerous.

What makes these "situations" dangerous?

For example, there is no reason for a transsexual to die over their orientation. However if disclosure is not there the potential for disaster can happen. Especially if the target is a heterosexual population, a transsexual has an obligation to inform the party that they are of a biological sex. On matters of disclosure and deal breakers its almost like having Herpes Simplex and not informing the person you have it. Now, I'm not comparing transsexuality with STD's I'm saying on matters of disclosure which can greatly determine a relationship outcome, being honest about oneself is important.

Of course people shouldn't be killed for their orientation, but this sounds like you are saying that murder is justified because you an unscrupulous straight person didn't ask the right questions.

this all sounds like you are blaming the victim. At what point does it end, should you be forced to confess anything else? People have killed their lovers over other things. Should we make people disclose those things also?

Because not wanting space being violated is no homophobic in nature, I think we all want people to respect our space, which is funny that those respondents here can't understand. In California if you approach the wrong man, you can get beat up hence we ought to discuss ways we can communicate better.

I have the perfect solution, lock up violent criminals. If"invading ones space" is justification to beat them up you have a serious antisocial issue.

The people that can simply say, "no thanks I am not gay" are the example. No excuse exists for somebody beating up another person over words.

I am sorry i agree that gay people and straight people should have a dialogue, but defending murderers and assailants its no way to form that dialogue. Rethink your statement, because it seems like you are saying that gay people get beat up because things they do.

Look I just twenty minuets ago was asked out by a lady, i didn't beat the crap out of her, I didn't murder her, i wasn't even rude to her, I simply said that i am with somebody. If i was single i would have said I was gay and had no interest in dating a female. Why is that so hard?

I have had numerous ladies think they can make me straight, I don't have to get violent i dint even have to be rude? Why in the hell can't others do that? There are far more straight women out there than gay men, I guarantee you this has happened to me far more times than it does to you. I don't piss and moan about it.

"no thanks you are not the right gender for me" said it a thousand times. I can say it a million more it doesn't hurt offend or even bother me. The ladies that insist that i can't possibly be gay and will not leave it alone do irritate me at times, or the ones that cry. But its no skin off my back.

Sorry i fail to see what you are complaining about.

 

[X Factor]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

Much like wearing padding, or lying on dates...

It's a matter of degree. Padding isn't a life altering surgery.

 

[Hypersonic]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

How are gay men supposed to know you aren't gay?

I know where you're getting at. I try not to succumb to stereotyping of people of other cultures however I guess living in California and being exposed to the various gays from all walks of life there are common behaviors and a dead giveaway is usage of the phrase "My partner" therefore with having to say "BTW I am heterosexual" in casual discussion I normally indicate either having a girlfriend, dating a cute woman feom work, or desiring to have kids with the 'right woman' if I meet one." I think common sense by my phrasing those desires would indicate I am.

 

[X Factor]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

Yup.



:lol:



If this happened, here would be the responses:

X... you were really a frigging idiot to do that. Putting yourself in that situation was really stupid.
Mugger... you're going to jail.

No one gets jailed for being stupid or even acting stupid in many cases... unfortunately. :2razz: People get jailed for breaking the law.

Point is that your culpability would be being and acting stupid. That does not CAUSE someone to mug you. That is their responsibility.

Damn you, CC. How am I supposed to pick an argument with you when you keep saying things I agree with more than I disagree? :2razz:

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

Damn you, CC. How am I supposed to pick an argument with you when you keep saying things I agree with more than I disagree? :2razz:

I knew you were trying to pick a fight, so I went in the other direction. :2razz:

You're not an extremist, X. You can see things logically and objectively. We're not as far off, politically, as some may think.

 

[Henrin]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

Much like wearing padding, or lying on dates...

:lamo Sure, it's exactly like that. Whatever you say.

 

[Hypersonic]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

How are you so sure anyone "knowingly knows" you're not gay when you're in a gay bar? Do you wear a t-shirt or something?

See my recent post

 

[Hypersonic]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

Almost sounds like you are blaming the victim here. The individual who was transgendered who did not disclose this until her wedding night was wrong to do that. However, that did NOT warrant murder in any way.

Also, I'm curious... do you also advocate that the straight community discuss things from a homosexual perspective so they can better understand why gays would want to be married and have children? There seems to be a lot of ignorance on this issue and better understanding would go a long way towards reducing aggression from heterosexuals. Also, I have a huge problem with this comment:



Please provide evidence of what I placed in bold.

Your reaction is oversensitive and you are attempting to negate the fact that several times I have said to react violently even in the midst of deception, is wrong. To hurt someone just because they're homosexual is wrong. Now that I've covered that from now on please allocate correct assertions about how I am stating my experiences.....

Key phrase, my experiences. It is what I currently perceive my interactions with the world.

Back to the "blame game."

No I don't blame victims of violence however I clearly stated that deception is not only wrong, but dangerous. An attempt at trying to "turn a man" into something he is not despite being told politely is rude and becomes an invasion of space. If someone is not honest out right there can be negative consequences.

As far as evidence of the bold, most my evidence is anecdotal, however I found an interesting blog:

Hiding the fact that you`re a transgender woman may have serious consequences

You'll find the above substantiates part of my claim

 

[Henrin]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

Almost sounds like you are blaming the victim here. The individual who was transgendered who did not disclose this until her wedding night was wrong to do that. However, that did NOT warrant murder in any way.

Perhaps not but the transgender individual tricked the man into a sexual relationship and harmed them deeply and in the most personal way possible outside of physical harm. You can't expect people will take that kindly and you can't expect people to not be beaten or killed over it. If transgenders are going to be sleeping with straight men that are looking for women and not tell them the truth they better hope to god it never comes out because the chances are many men out there will make them pay for it. You might not think it warrants it but the fact is many men do. Personally, if it happen to me I would beat the living hell out of them and I have said as much in the past. You don't have to accept it, but I take these matters very seriously and I will seek justice by my own hand. Just sayin'..

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

Your reaction is oversensitive and you are attempting to negate the fact that several times I have said to react violently even in the midst of deception, is wrong. To hurt someone just because they're homosexual is wrong. Now that I've covered that from now on please allocate correct assertions about how I am stating my experiences.....

Key phrase, my experiences. It is what I currently perceive my interactions with the world.

Your experiences are irrelevant if you are discussing what needs to occur with the LGBT community. You are overgeneralizing. Your experiences may be based on your perceptions which make them skewed.

Further your focus was on the LGBT community to "fix" this issue. It is not their charge. It is the charge of BOTH communities since the issue involves both of them.

Back to the "blame game."

No I don't blame victims of violence however I clearly stated that deception is not only wrong, but dangerous. An attempt at trying to "turn a man" into something he is not despite being told politely is rude and becomes an invasion of space. If someone is not honest out right there can be negative consequences.

I explained that both of those things would be deceptive and wrong. However, any physical consequences that occur, if physical action has not been taken first, is the sole responsibility of the attacker.

As far as evidence of the bold, most my evidence is anecdotal, however I found an interesting blog:

Hiding the fact that you`re a transgender woman may have serious consequences

Right. Anecdotal... as I thought. Do try to NOT present as fact things that have no factual basis at all. That's what you did, inferring that those in the LGBT community are less than trustworthy. No evidence, not cool, though I do appreciate you backing off from the claim.

As far as the blog goes, not telling a partner is deceptive and wrong. And has no justification for any violence.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

Perhaps not but the transgender individual tricked the man into a sexual relationship and harmed them deeply and in the most personal way possible outside of physical harm. You can't expect people will take that kindly and you can't expect people to not be beaten or killed over it. If transgenders are going to be sleeping with straight men that are looking for women and not tell them the truth they better hope to god it never comes out because the chances are many men out there will make them pay for it. You might not think it warrants it but the fact is many men do. Personally, if it happen to me I would beat the living hell out of them and I have said as much in the past. You don't have to accept it, but I take these matters very seriously and I will seek justice by my own hand. Just sayin'..

Don't care whether you or anyone else believes it is justified. It is irrelevant as to whether the transgendered person tricked the man or not. It is YOUR responsibility if you commit an act of violence on this person. You are responsible for your actions and behaviors. No one controlled you.

And if you DID enact violence on the individual, I would hope that you would take responsibility for your behavior, admit it, and accept the consequences.

 

[Hypersonic]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

I agree with the last one but only because it's deception. The others are really not rude at all.

Well if I tell a gay man I am only into women and he still continues then it becomes rude.

 

[winston53660]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

Well if I tell a gay man I am only into women and he still continues then it becomes rude.

get over it

 

[X Factor]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

I knew you were trying to pick a fight, so I went in the other direction. :2razz:

You're not an extremist, X. You can see things logically and objectively. We're not as far off, politically, as some may think.

It's funny you should say this, CC, because I was just thinking about it the other day. Some times we seem like we're starting of miles apart until we start fleshing the discussion out more, then it turns out that, while we may not fully agree, we're not really so far apart. Not to turn this into a Hallmark moment or anything, but you've always been really good at getting me to think about things from a different perspective. Admittedly, lately, I haven't been so good about that but I know it's usually a much better discussion when I do.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

Well if I tell a gay man I am only into women and he still continues then it becomes rude.

I think we've been over this. Of course it would be... just as it would be rude if a woman tells you she is not interested and you continue. This is NOT an LGBT issue. It's an issue within the individual.

 

[Hypersonic]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

Is this some great sacrifice on your part that you have to 'avoid' gay clubs? Yeah, there can be foolishness that precedes hate crime, but it's one thing to give PSA type warnings and another to say the victim 'had it coming.' No one deserves to be beaten and left at a fence to die, and with a lot of these attacks there's no provocation at all. I'm sure such advances annoy you, but these assaults don't happen unless there's hate behind it. I don't often make a point of shaming victims by saying they're responsible.

I see you like skimming over my point. I clearly and repetitively stated despite the circumstance it doesn't warrant death, but it is a bad idea to be deceitful

 

[Paschendale]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

It's about advising the community on being safe. That includes encouraging members of the community on being conscious of their environment. This also includes knowing the people you approach and making sure you aren't coming off as offensive. This is not to blame the nature of the sexual orientation but to be cautious and to not pass as something you're (in the eyes of society). For example and prove me wrong if you will, but a transgendered man or woman really have no place to pass themselves off as biologically the sex they are comfortable in towards heterosexuals especially if they leave out the disclaimer "Just so you know I was born a man."

I think to engage in any relationship without disclosing those important information could be a dealbreaker and most importantly dangerous.

This sounds an awful lot like telling women to dress more modestly so that she doesn't encourage rape. Nobody owes you an explanation, or to be super sensitive to avoid offending your heterosexual sensibilities. If you get offended, that's on you. It only way it's not is if someone is deliberately trying to antagonize you, which none of your examples are doing. They're just being regular people looking for some human connection. Your homophobia is not for them to "be conscious" of.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Re: Should mmunity start taking responsibility in certain deviant behaviors?

Of course. Anyone that thinks something special be done for homosexuals who hit on heterosexual people, need to have their heads examined.

You turn them down like you would anyone else that comes onto you that you aren't interested in.

Seems pretty simple to me.

It would appear that common sense is not so common after all.

 

[Henrin]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

Don't care whether you or anyone else believes it is justified. It is irrelevant as to whether the transgendered person tricked the man or not. It is YOUR responsibility if you commit an act of violence on this person. You are responsible for your actions and behaviors. No one controlled you.

And if you DID enact violence on the individual, I would hope that you would take responsibility for your behavior, admit it, and accept the consequences.

Sorry, but if someone deceives me in such a fashion I will have my justice. I never asked you what you thought about it and I don't care if you approve. My actions would be the actions that many men would take in those shoes and regardless of what you think those actions are justified. Someone that acts in such a fashion towards someone else DESERVES justice and since the state will not assist in carrying that justice out you know what will happen. Deal with it.

Everyone here knows what will happen and most transgenders accept the idea they better be honest. The only person living in fairytale world is you where you think deceiving someone into a sexual relationship is not a punishable offense. It is and deservedly so.