Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behaviors?

[Nynaeve Meara]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

In some cases they do though.

I disagree.

I did no such thing. I pointed out that they are options after you stated they are required to treat gender dysphoria.

If you say so, but it is required to treat gender dysphoria. There are no other options.

I dont know enough about gender queer people to really be commenting on this. All I can say is they obviously feel like they need hormones for some reason or another.

If they are estrogen, progesterone, or testosterone deficient for their normal levels, then yes they'd need HRT. That would not be the same as HRT for transsexuals. Cisgendered individuals can have low hormone levels and adjustments to diet, excersise, and/or HRT can influence that along with stress.

So what your doing is claiming every single transsexual needs surgery to eliminate gender dysphoria based of off anecdotal evidence? All I need to do to prove you wrong is provide one example of a transsexual who does not feel the need to have SRS (which I have).

I've provided statistics fit to quantify the entire US as a sample size for a study. It isn't anecdotal when the sample size is large enough. There are certain details I cannot release obviously. The 2500~ sample size would be accurate to represent the entire US should they be asked questions. You could repeat it of course but keep in mind that gender dysphoria isn't common.

I skimmed the first link and found nothing stating or even suggesting that every transsexual needs SRS. The second and third link is about one specific individual so it doesnt do us any good here.

Im not going to read that book but I looked it up and it is also about an individual person and therefor doesnt really do any good here.

I'm giving you extra examples beyond the original 2500~, which would fulfill any statistical equivalent required. I almost wonder if writing a study would be worth it, plus obtaining permission to do so is required from patients.

ESA journals -- Statistical guidelines
New View of Statistics: Reliability Applications

You can achieve a 95% confidence with 100 subjects, having more means more confidence which would boost it to approximately 99.998%~(This is an estimation statistics were not my strongest subject) essentially the same as getting pregnant while on birth control and using a condom at the same time.

What you provided me was a single uneducated non-counseled transsexual who is using false information to come to conclusions. She needs to go see someone or dysphoria could become significantly worse. I'm not referring to the normal highs/lows of living either.

 

[solletica]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

I know this is controversial but by "deviant behavior" I'm referring to gays, lesbians, transgendered, targeting certain people who knowingly knows the person does not share their orientation. I call it deviate because such behaviors are a deviation from honesty with the intent to "don't knock it until you try it." There have been several hate crime attacks all because 1) The victim was not forthright with their orientation 2) The victim became the victim of circumstance because of the person was truly evil and homophobic. On a personal level I tend to run into this myself, and I just find it rude that gay men know I'm heterosexual but they push the issue. This is why I refrain from going to gay clubs because I'm sure there is one that would want to try and "turn me gay." So far with these hate crimes I'm not hearing anything from the community in being honest outright of their sexuality, because dishonesty is starting to get people killed.

As long as other animals do it, it's natural, and therefore, not deviant, by definition.

 

[solletica]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

Well any aggressive behavior that exceeds boundaries where consent was not present nor is the act encouraged, is undoubtedly wrong. I hold the same contempt if it were heterosexual men pushing on lesbians. The point is the issue needs to be discussed. Hate crime is wrong period, but certain people in society are a certain way where if they feel misled or violated, they may act hostile. As in the recent case of the transgendered that was killed after the guy on their honeymoon found out his wife had a penis. Like I said I don't condone violence on matters even matters of deceit, but this type of misleading is common in the LGBT community. Even gay friends of mine have this Freudian idea of men having inner sexual attraction towards each other, however I find such ideas (if they are true) dangerous.

The fundamental problem w/current (early 21st century) notions of sexuality is their fixation on the absurd notion that biological gender, by itself, is a criteria in sexual attraction, even though biological gender can't be perceived.

 

[wolfie]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

As long as other animals do it, it's natural, and therefore, not deviant, by definition.

Animals don't know any better..they'd screw a lousy rug..it is not homosexuality, it is self-gratification..

 

[solletica]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

Animals don't know any better..they'd screw a lousy rug..it is not homosexuality, it is self-gratification..

Humans are animals, yet they generally don't have sex w/rugs. Nor do cats and birds. This disproves your claim.

However, self-gratification is the reason why all animals have sex. If it didn't feel good, they certainly wouldn't do it.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

Treating gender dysphoria as a general dysphoria is nearly as bad as treating Selective Mutism as Aphasia. They are somewhat similar classifications but the treatment options are different, especially concerning how they are caused and for what reason. Some people confuse depression or despondence with self image as GDD.

No, similar techniques are certainly used. One's reaction to the GDD is one of depression and though treatment can be streamlined, the basics are similar to other types of depression. It would be like treating someone with bereavement issues verses someone who's spouse had cheated on them verses someone who's depression seemed to have an ambiguous cause. The specifics would have some differences, but some basic techniques are pretty clear. Again, you are basing your position under the false perception that the only way to treat GDD is through HRT and SRS. This is not accurate.

Of course it isn't, it isn't a medical condition nor should it be.

Good. Then do not refer to treatment of it since one cannot treat something that is not a condition.

Of course. Again it isn't a medical condition that doesn't make it a non-descriptor.

The descriptor is used by members of the community, not by professionals in any official way. Do not say that the APA uses it. In any official capacity, it does not.

That isn't what I was talking about, I was referring to treating GDD without SRS/HRT. Which has more to do with public image of that person as opposed to actual treatment options.

I don't think you can find outcomes for people who have GDD and do not go through with SRS/HRT, but feel free to give it a shot.

 

[Nynaeve Meara]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

No, similar techniques are certainly used. One's reaction to the GDD is one of depression and though treatment can be streamlined, the basics are similar to other types of depression. It would be like treating someone with bereavement issues verses someone who's spouse had cheated on them verses someone who's depression seemed to have an ambiguous cause. The specifics would have some differences, but some basic techniques are pretty clear. Again, you are basing your position under the false perception that the only way to treat GDD is through HRT and SRS. This is not accurate.

I had to read this a few times to understand it. You have some interesting word choices.

There are no other treatment options for GDD, you have HRT and SRS. Both of which(when used in combination) have significant studies backing them as the treatments for GDD. You can treat depression related to GDD without the HRT or SRS but that will not remove the GDD from redeveloping later in the future.

Good. Then do not refer to treatment of it since one cannot treat something that is not a condition.

Who said anything about treating a gender queer person? You could treat them for depression, if there is that issue but there are no specific treatment options for a gender non-conformist.

The descriptor is used by members of the community, not by professionals in any official way. Do not say that the APA uses it. In any official capacity, it does not.

It is used by professionals since there is no medical diagnosis to go along with it. It is used in a social capacity and has for quite some time. Albeit some of my colleagues use intersexed still as well and not just referring to actual intersexed individuals.

I don't think you can find outcomes for people who have GDD and do not go through with SRS/HRT, but feel free to give it a shot.

I haven't found any thus far.

 

[Omgitsme]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

If they are estrogen, progesterone, or testosterone deficient for their normal levels, then yes they'd need HRT. That would not be the same as HRT for transsexuals. Cisgendered individuals can have low hormone levels and adjustments to diet, excersise, and/or HRT can influence that along with stress.

Again I dont know enough about gender queer individuals to really comment but its quite obvious that many do seem to feel the need to take hormones and it doesnt seem like its because their hormone levels are low.

I've provided statistics fit to quantify the entire US as a sample size for a study. It isn't anecdotal when the sample size is large enough. There are certain details I cannot release obviously. The 2500~ sample size would be accurate to represent the entire US should they be asked questions. You could repeat it of course but keep in mind that gender dysphoria isn't common.

I'm giving you extra examples beyond the original 2500~, which would fulfill any statistical equivalent required. I almost wonder if writing a study would be worth it, plus obtaining permission to do so is required from patients.

ESA journals -- Statistical guidelines
New View of Statistics: Reliability Applications

You can achieve a 95% confidence with 100 subjects, having more means more confidence which would boost it to approximately 99.998%~(This is an estimation statistics were not my strongest subject) essentially the same as getting pregnant while on birth control and using a condom at the same time.

Where did you come up with that number? And what exactly do you mean by colleagues? There is a lot of missing information here.

What you provided me was a single uneducated non-counseled transsexual who is using false information to come to conclusions. She needs to go see someone or dysphoria could become significantly worse. I'm not referring to the normal highs/lows of living either.

Well how about FTMs? A very large portion of them dont get bottom surgery for one reason or another.

 

[Nynaeve Meara]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

Again I dont know enough about gender queer individuals to really comment but its quite obvious that many do seem to feel the need to take hormones and it doesnt seem like its because their hormone levels are low.

You are using your own limited experience as some sort of a fact which negates the point you are trying to make. There is no reason someone who is gender queer should be taking hormones unless its for regulating their already different hormone levels. Which can also be altered by diet, stress, and exercise to a certain point.

Where did you come up with that number? And what exactly do you mean by colleagues? There is a lot of missing information here.

I pooled it from the resources I have available and then calculated it based on a statistics class that was required during university. Colleague[def:a person with whom one works, esp. in a profession or business]. Nothing is missing in terms of study requirements for the basics. As I stated before there is some information that cannot be given out. Which is why I pointed you to other studies that show the exact same result so you can read their preface and conclusion as well. Just because you are dismissing them doesn't make it incorrect.

Well how about FTMs? A very large portion of them dont get bottom surgery for one reason or another.

They do get SRS, in the form of hysterectomy and breast reduction/removal. You are correct there isn't a technological equivalent and ease to the MTF SRS so far but that is changing rapidly. A good example is Marci Bowers Marci Bowers - Female-to-Male Surgery Photographs [Graphic content, NFSW] Hormone level FTM transsexuals are infertile males after the reproductive organs have been removed.

 

[Omgitsme]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

I pooled it from the resources I have available and then calculated it based on a statistics class that was required during university. Colleague[def:a person with whom one works, esp. in a profession or business]. Nothing is missing in terms of study requirements for the basics. As I stated before there is some information that cannot be given out. Which is why I pointed you to other studies that show the exact same result so you can read their preface and conclusion as well. Just because you are dismissing them doesn't make it incorrect.

I need more specifics. What resources? By colleagues do you mean people who specialize in working with transsexuals? And yes you said that some information cannot be given out but without certain information all you have is the word of a random person on the internet against the word of people like my therapist who works extensively with transsexuals and my doctor who is quite knowledgeable in matters regarding transgendered and transsexual individuals. Not to mention my experiences being a transsexual and being unsure if when the time comes im going to get SRS or not and several transsexuals who I have talked too who have said they are not planning on getting SRS for one reason or another.

They do get SRS, in the form of hysterectomy and breast reduction/removal. You are correct there isn't a technological equivalent and ease to the MTF SRS so far but that is changing rapidly. A good example is Marci Bowers Marci Bowers - Female-to-Male Surgery Photographs [Graphic content, NFSW] Hormone level FTM transsexuals are infertile males after the reproductive organs have been removed.

Yes a good portion of FTM transsexuals get top surgery but as far as bottom surgery goes many do not get it. And yes I know the FTM surgery isnt quite at the same level as the MTF surgery but according to your logic if they dont desire to get bottom surgery then they arnt really a transsexual.

 

[Nynaeve Meara]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

I need more specifics. What resources? By colleagues do you mean people who specialize in working with transsexuals? And yes you said that some information cannot be given out but without certain information all you have is the word of a random person on the internet against the word of people like my therapist who works extensively with transsexuals and my doctor who is quite knowledgeable in matters regarding transgendered and transsexual individuals. Not to mention my experiences being a transsexual and being unsure if when the time comes im going to get SRS or not and several transsexuals who I have talked too who have said they are not planning on getting SRS for one reason or another.

What more do you need specifically? I've given the information available without disclosing personal information. If you aren't understanding what the word colleague means, I'm not sure how I can help you in that one. I've posted the definition for you and I'm sure you can look up any additional information you may need regarding that word.

I'm not dismissing your own experience as a transsexual, but when most of the information you've displayed is out of date by at least 10 years I'm starting to wonder if you are getting correct information from your therapist and doctor. I'd highly suggest you get some updated information or ask them where they are getting theirs, as it is no longer accurate. I'd highly suggest they go to the WPATH Symposium so they can continue to keep up to date on their advice and training. Here is the Symposium from 2011 they can start with this: 2011 Atlanta, GA Symposium WPATH hold these updated training every two years. The next one is in Bangkok in Feb of next year.

Yes a good portion of FTM transsexuals get top surgery but as far as bottom surgery goes many do not get it. And yes I know the FTM surgery isnt quite at the same level as the MTF surgery but according to your logic if they dont desire to get bottom surgery then they arnt really a transsexual.

All of the FTM transsexuals get chest reduction surgery. Also yes, they want to have the SRS but I cannot fault someone if the surgical technology isn't up to date with a cisgendered male and they opt not to have it. That doesn't mean they don't want to.

 

[Omgitsme]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

What more do you need specifically? I've given the information available without disclosing personal information. If you aren't understanding what the word colleague means, I'm not sure how I can help you in that one. I've posted the definition for you and I'm sure you can look up any additional information you may need regarding that word.

I know what the word colleague means but its a pretty general word here and doesnt tell me anything important like job title and educational background.

I'm not dismissing your own experience as a transsexual, but when most of the information you've displayed is out of date by at least 10 years I'm starting to wonder if you are getting correct information from your therapist and doctor. I'd highly suggest you get some updated information or ask them where they are getting theirs, as it is no longer accurate. I'd highly suggest they go to the WPATH Symposium so they can continue to keep up to date on their advice and training. Here is the Symposium from 2011 they can start with this: 2011 Atlanta, GA Symposium WPATH hold these updated training every two years. The next one is in Bangkok in Feb of next year.

What info have I displayed thats out of date? If your talking about the video I posted I only posted that as an example of someone who doesnt want SRS and not as a reliable source on SRS or anything.

And my therapist and doctor are quite up to date here.

All of the FTM transsexuals get chest reduction surgery. Also yes, they want to have the SRS but I cannot fault someone if the surgical technology isn't up to date with a cisgendered male and they opt not to have it. That doesn't mean they don't want to.

Not all FTMs get top surgery. But anyways it most certainly does mean that they dont want to have the surgery. It doesnt mean however that they like having a vagina and dont want a penis however. Same with MTFs who decide not to get the surgery. They might not want the surgery because the amount of money it costs means they will have to sacrifice alot of luxuries in their life or maybe its because the idea of surgery freaks them out or maybe they dont want the surgery because of the limitations of the surgery. It doesnt mean that they like having a penis or that they dont want a vagina it just means that they dont want the surgery.

 

[Nynaeve Meara]

Re: Should the LGBT community start taking responsibility in certain deviant behavior

I know what the word colleague means but its a pretty general word here and doesnt tell me anything important like job title and educational background.



What info have I displayed thats out of date? If your talking about the video I posted I only posted that as an example of someone who doesnt want SRS and not as a reliable source on SRS or anything.

And my therapist and doctor are quite up to date here.


Not all FTMs get top surgery. But anyways it most certainly does mean that they dont want to have the surgery. It doesnt mean however that they like having a vagina and dont want a penis however. Same with MTFs who decide not to get the surgery. They might not want the surgery because the amount of money it costs means they will have to sacrifice alot of luxuries in their life or maybe its because the idea of surgery freaks them out or maybe they dont want the surgery because of the limitations of the surgery. It doesnt mean that they like having a penis or that they dont want a vagina it just means that they dont want the surgery.

I had a nice reply to this but it never posted. I don't feel like typing it out again. Therefore, gg wp.