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Should Muslims be permitted to immigrate to the United States

Should Muslims be permitted to immigrate to the United States?

  • Yes

    Votes: 42 66.7%
  • No

    Votes: 14 22.2%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 8 12.7%
  • Unsure

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    63

Surenderer

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Re: Another take on the Bali bombings by Christopher Hitchens

Missouri Mule said:
Another clear headed thinker on Islamist fanaticism.
================================
Why Ask Why?
Terrorist attacks aren't caused by any policy except that of the bombers themselves.
By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Monday, Oct. 3, 2005, at 8:00 AM PT

The return of murderous nihilism to Bali is highly instructive. It shows, first, that the fanatics of Islamism don't know how to stop. And it also shows that they never learn. How can Jemaah Islamiyah, which almost ruined Indonesia's economy by its filthy attack three years ago, possibly have tried to repeat the same crime in the same place? If we look for answers to this question, we shall find answers that completely discredit the current half-baked apologies for terrorism.

I remember going to Bali from Jakarta in the summer of 2003. I had already toured the wreckage of the Marriott Hotel in the capital city, which was blown up by a suicide team just as I arrived, slaying several Muslim cab drivers who were waiting in line outside. The rage of the local population was something to be seen: The widows of the dead men were calling for the perpetrators to be tortured before they were executed. In Bali, which is a more mild and temperate place, a huge candlelit march had followed the bombings that had devastated the tourist hangouts in Kuta. I made a point of going to Legian Street, which had been the "ground zero" of this fiery atrocity, and of attending the opening of Paddy's Bar Reloaded, where so many genial Australians had been foully incinerated. The prevailing view was that JI had isolated itself and that the trial of the perpetrators would expose them to popular contempt—which indeed it did.

But if JI were rational, it wouldn't have attacked the bars and clubs and beaches of Kuta and Jimbaran in the first place. Indonesia is a mainly Muslim society, whose government takes a stern line against the war in Iraq and even Afghanistan. Its people, who are astonishingly hospitable to all foreigners, depend in millions of cases on tourism to make the difference between indigence and the minimum wage. Its elections feature Muslim political parties, many of them quite austere in their propaganda. Why on earth, then, would a fundamentalist group wish to bring discredit upon itself and ruin upon its neighbors by resorting to random slaughter?...

(Snip)

So, what did Indonesia do to deserve this, or bring it on itself? How will the slaughter in Bali improve the lot of the Palestinians? Those who look for the connection will be doomed to ask increasingly stupid questions and to be content with increasingly wicked answers.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2127343/





So the point of this is what? That terrorism is wrong? You could have saved the webspace because nobody agrees with the bombings in Bali....As I have said before Terrorists dont care if you are Muslim Atheist Christian or whatever..........



peace
 

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Re: Another take on the Bali bombings by Christopher Hitchens

Surenderer said:
So the point of this is what? That terrorism is wrong? You could have saved the webspace because nobody agrees with the bombings in Bali....As I have said before Terrorists dont care if you are Muslim Atheist Christian or whatever..........

peace

Certainly "someone" agrees with these bombings or they wouldn't keep happening. This is a Muslim problem and it is going to have to solved by Muslims. They need to come to a meeting of minds and renounce terrorism in all forms and proceed to turn over all known terrorists in their midst, starting with Bin Laden and Zarqawai. Then I will believe they are truly against terrorism; not before.

I don't wish to use this hackneyed phrase, but it is true nonetheless. "Words are cheap...."
 

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Surenderer said:
How am I pandering towards terrorists? They would want to kill me before they would want to kill you (as seen in Iraq)....Please if you are going to admonish me then please be more specific;) ....you keep misinterpeting everything I say to make it seem as if I advocate the terrorist mind when I have said nothing of the sort.....remember I am the one who says the killing of innocents is ALWAYS wrong (cough Hiroshima) not situational like you seem to like to think........But question for you though.......Do you think that supporting a terrorist Nation or regime qualifies one as a terrorist themselves?....curious of your opinion....thanks




peace

I don't think I was accusing you of pandering to terrorist. I was really making a statement. Sorry if there was confussion.

Not exactly what the Hiroshima remark was about. All wars have the loss of innocent lives. And up until recently civilian populations were actually targeted, or better yet infrastructure was targeted. Hiroshima saved lives. Both US and Japanese. It was a means to an end that in the long run was the right move, and saved lives in my opinion.

Thats a very sharp double edged sword and no matter what my answer I am going to get a few supported dictators and terrorist thrown at me.

As far as being situational, do you think that life is hard and fast or does it change and evolve? Blowing the ever loving **** out of people is sometimes the best answer, and sometimes it isn't. I see no use in handling every problem with a hammer. But when it's needed I want to make sure I have the biggest hammer out there.
 

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Re: Another take on the Bali bombings by Christopher Hitchens

Missouri Mule said:
Certainly "someone" agrees with these bombings or they wouldn't keep happening. This is a Muslim problem and it is going to have to solved by Muslims. They need to come to a meeting of minds and renounce terrorism in all forms and proceed to turn over all known terrorists in their midst, starting with Bin Laden and Zarqawai. Then I will believe they are truly against terrorism; not before.

I don't wish to use this hackneyed phrase, but it is true nonetheless. "Words are cheap...."

I think if the if the world saw the majority of the muslim population turn against these animals it would go a long way to relaxing a lot of the feeling doubts and distrust
 

Gandhi>Bush

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Re: Another take on the Bali bombings by Christopher Hitchens

Missouri Mule said:
Certainly "someone" agrees with these bombings or they wouldn't keep happening. This is a Muslim problem and it is going to have to solved by Muslims. They need to come to a meeting of minds and renounce terrorism in all forms and proceed to turn over all known terrorists in their midst, starting with Bin Laden and Zarqawai. Then I will believe they are truly against terrorism; not before.

I don't wish to use this hackneyed phrase, but it is true nonetheless. "Words are cheap...."

Christians didn't renounce what the abortion clinic bomber Ku Klux Klan. They don't have to. Muslims didn't renounce radical Islamic terror organizations. They don't have to.
 

Surenderer

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Re: Another take on the Bali bombings by Christopher Hitchens

Calm2Chaos said:
I think if the if the world saw the majority of the muslim population turn against these animals it would go a long way to relaxing a lot of the feeling doubts and distrust




Who says that Muslims arent against them? We can only preach out against this behavior in Mosques and communites and try to show the Non-Muslims who are willing to learn that all Muslims arent violent.... you guys keep saying that Muslims "should report the Terrorists in their mist" like we know who they are but what makes you think we know? do you think the Muslims in Bali knew? Why didnt Americans report the Olympic bomber? or Timothy Mcvey? Heard anything from anyone about the Anthrax killers?......These guys hide among their own type



peace
 

Surenderer

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Re: Another take on the Bali bombings by Christopher Hitchens

Missouri Mule said:
Certainly "someone" agrees with these bombings or they wouldn't keep happening. This is a Muslim problem and it is going to have to solved by Muslims. They need to come to a meeting of minds and renounce terrorism in all forms and proceed to turn over all known terrorists in their midst, starting with Bin Laden and Zarqawai. Then I will believe they are truly against terrorism; not before.

I don't wish to use this hackneyed phrase, but it is true nonetheless. "Words are cheap...."




Ya other terrorists agree.....you expect them to turn in Bin Laden? If you are waiting for them to "fess up" then you gonna be waiting for awhile.....but are you now saying that all Muslims arent against terrorism....most arent....or a few arent?....have you seen how many terrorists Pakistian has rounded up this past year? Eygpt?.......they are using alot more than words



peace
 

Diogenes

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Calm2Chaos said:
I think if the if the world saw the majority of the muslim population turn against these animals it would go a long way to relaxing a lot of the feeling doubts and distrust
Very true. Their tolerance of atrocity is what feeds suspicion about them.

Ghandi>Bush said:
Christians didn't renounce what the abortion clinic bomber Ku Klux Klan. They don't have to. Muslims didn't renounce radical Islamic terror organizations. They don't have to.
Christians did denounce the clinic bombings, as they should have, and the bombers have been brought to justice (or are fugitives). With a few exceptions, Muslims don't denounce terrorism and Muslim societies don't pursue and punish the terrorists. They thereby create the perception that they support terrorism.

Surenderer said:
Why didnt Americans report the Olympic bomber? or Timothy Mcvey?
They did. That's how we found out who they were.
 

Gandhi>Bush

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Diogenes said:
You are judging the book by its cover, which is always a serious error.

We're not talking about books. We're not talking about canines. We're not talking about tigers. We're talking about people. You are no different from an Arab. Inside and out, you are the same.

If you could sell your philosophy to the Middle Eastern Muslims, the world would benefit. Have you tried?

Can't say I've had much of a chance yet, but I can say that the Arabic language is in my degree plan and after college I do indeed plan on joining Peace Corps. After that, who knows. I don't plan on going immediately home.

Excellent! Then you recognize the possibility of psychopaths who may superficially resemble men, but have the souls of mad dogs.

Now we're talking about souls?

It is the qualities that define civilized, not the ethnic background or geographic location. The extremists define themselves as being outside the pale of humanity.

Do you know what adds up to humanity? Humans. I guess that makes extremists within the "pale."

Nonsense. A mad dog must be killed quickly and without hate. When the dog is dead, the problems end.

From this point on I will cease to acknowledge any comparison of a man to a "mad dog."

Killing these men that are filled with hate fills others with hate. What about that don't you understand?

Christians did denounce the clinic bombings, as they should have, and the bombers have been brought to justice (or are fugitives). With a few exceptions, Muslims don't denounce terrorism and Muslim societies don't pursue and punish the terrorists. They thereby create the perception that they support terrorism.

Can you list the names of the Christian churches that publicly denounced the clinic bombings?

Muslims societies don't pursue and punish terrorists??

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/05/04/pakistan.arrest/

Think about the news in Palestine today. Palestinian police protesting for a tougher stance against Hamas.

There are many other examples that I would be happy to google for you. Just ask.
 

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Ghandi<Bush said:
We're not talking about books. We're not talking about canines. We're not talking about tigers. We're talking about people.
I thought the subject was terrorists, and whether Muslims should be allowed to immigrate to the US.

You are no different from an Arab. Inside and out, you are the same.
You insult all civilized people when you equate civilized people to terrorists. Bad hippy! No dope tonight!

Can't say I've had much of a chance yet, but I can say that the Arabic language is in my degree plan and after college I do indeed plan on joining Peace Corps. After that, who knows. I don't plan on going immediately home.
If you try to sell your philosophy to the militants, I wouldn't plan to see you come home at all.

Killing these men that are filled with hate fills others with hate. What about that don't you understand?
Killing these men that are filled with hate saves the lives of me, my friends, and my family. What about that do you not understand?

Can you list the names of the Christian churches that publicly denounced the clinic bombings?
I could find the names of more Christians who denounced the clinic bombings than Muslims who denounced 9/11.

Muslims societies don't pursue and punish terrorists??
Not unless the terrorists threaten the local power structure. Muslim societies are extremely effective at inflicting suffering on those who do not share their beliefs.

From this point on I will cease to acknowledge any comparison of a man to a "mad dog."
I don't compare men to mad dogs. I compare the subhuman terrorists of militant Islamofascism to mad dogs (with apologies for any defamation to the affected dogs). If you wish to live exclusively in the smoke of seeds and stems, absorbed in the colors of the shadows on the wall, totally detached from reality and utterly useless to the world, that is your privilege. But I do agree that further discussion with you is a waste of time and bandwidth.
 

Gandhi>Bush

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Diogenes said:
I thought the subject was terrorists, and whether Muslims should be allowed to immigrate to the US.

Terrorists and Muslims are both people no matter how tightly you shut your eyes and no matter how many times you say to yourself that they are not.

You insult all civilized people when you equate civilized people to terrorists. Bad hippy! No dope tonight!

The defintion of terrorist is one who uses the tactics of terrorism. Terrorism is coercion by means of terror or fear. You'd be hard pressed to find a leader in the world today civilized or not that did that not engage in some sort of "terrorism."

If you try to sell your philosophy to the militants, I wouldn't plan to see you come home at all.

I'm willing to take that risk. You have your fun trying to kill haters. I'm going to be busy killing hatred.

Killing these men that are filled with hate saves the lives of me, my friends, and my family. What about that do you not understand?

These men that you kill have family and friends. When does this cycle of stupidity end? With the total extermination of one of you? Or with a change in one of you?

I could find the names of more Christians who denounced the clinic bombings than Muslims who denounced 9/11.

I doubt it. No one demanded that Christians apologize for actions they did not commit. It wasn't necessary. Why would you ask the same of Muslims?

Not unless the terrorists threaten the local power structure. Muslim societies are extremely effective at inflicting suffering on those who do not share their beliefs.

All societies are.

I don't compare men to mad dogs. I compare the subhuman terrorists of militant Islamofascism to mad dogs (with apologies for any defamation to the affected dogs). If you wish to live exclusively in the smoke of seeds and stems, absorbed in the colors of the shadows on the wall, totally detached from reality and utterly useless to the world, that is your privilege. But I do agree that further discussion with you is a waste of time and bandwidth.

Ooo!! And now we're getting personal. Why degrade the discussion? I was fairly interested and entertained up until this point.
 

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Re: Another take on the Bali bombings by Christopher Hitchens

Gandhi>Bush said:
Christians didn't renounce what the abortion clinic bomber Ku Klux Klan. They don't have to. Muslims didn't renounce radical Islamic terror organizations. They don't have to.

You'll excuse me if I regard that as a ridiculous comparison. Can you please be serious?
 

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Re: Another take on the Bali bombings by Christopher Hitchens

Surenderer said:
Ya other terrorists agree.....you expect them to turn in Bin Laden? If you are waiting for them to "fess up" then you gonna be waiting for awhile.....but are you now saying that all Muslims arent against terrorism....most arent....or a few arent?....have you seen how many terrorists Pakistian has rounded up this past year? Eygpt?.......they are using alot more than words

peace

Not enough apparently. Bin Laden and Zarqawi are still on the loose after four years. I believe if we had a maddog killer on the loose in the U.S. that we would have had the good sense to have turned in the cold blooded murderer by now. Don't you?
 

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The true face of fanatical Islam

Don't listen to me. Listen to the Muslim fanatics themselves. The future is right in front of each one of us but there are those who are so blinded that they refuse to see the truth. Fanatical Islam hasn't changed a bit in 13 centuries. It is still kill all the infidels if they don't accept this "religion."
============================
Embrace nuclear weapons: Bashir
Samantha Maiden
October 04, 2005

ABU Bakir Bashir, the spiritual leader of Jemaah Islamiah, has outlined the religious justification for terror attacks in Bali, London and New York and urged jihadists to embrace nuclear weapons "if necessary".

In a chilling interview last month in the Jakarta cell where he remains after his conspiracy conviction in relation to the 2002 Bali bombings, the radical Muslim cleric also warned of a clash of civilisations that would not end until the West "accepts to be governed by Islam".

The alleged terrorist leader speaks of his hopes of meeting Osama bin Laden if he is released from prison and explains the justification for suicide bombers and terror attacks. "During battle it is different. Still, the whole notion revolves around martyrdom," he says. "But in places like London and in America there must be other calculations. In battle it is best to cause as many casualties as possible."

(Snip)

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16807014^601,00.html
 

Gandhi>Bush

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Re: Another take on the Bali bombings by Christopher Hitchens

Missouri Mule said:
You'll excuse me if I regard that as a ridiculous comparison. Can you please be serious?

99.999997% of all abortion clinic bombers are Christian. Would you get nervous if you saw a cross necklace at a planned parenthood center?

99.999997% of all terrorists are Muslims. Would you get nervous if you saw a turban on an air plane?

You seem like an educated man. The answer should be no in both cases.
 

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Re: Another take on the Bali bombings by Christopher Hitchens

Gandhi>Bush said:
99.999997% of all abortion clinic bombers are Christian. Would you get nervous if you saw a cross necklace at a planned parenthood center?

99.999997% of all terrorists are Muslims. Would you get nervous if you saw a turban on an air plane?

You seem like an educated man. The answer should be no in both cases.

You're still using a ridiculous comparison. Even if abortion bombers were everywhere bombing every abortion clinic to be found anywhere in the U.S. it would still not be a clear and present danger to the security of our nation. Bin Laden and his Muslim gangsters clearly are a clear and present danger to the security of all civilized mankind.
 

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Re: Another take on the Bali bombings by Christopher Hitchens

Missouri Mule said:
You're still using a ridiculous comparison. Even if abortion bombers were everywhere bombing every abortion clinic to be found anywhere in the U.S. it would still not be a clear and present danger to the security of our nation. Bin Laden and his Muslim gangsters clearly are a clear and present danger to the security of all civilized mankind.

We're talking about judging an entire faith, one that represents over over a sixth of the world's population, by the actions of it's most extreme and radical members. I think that's an unfair and inaccurate predjudice.
 

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Originally posted by Jenin
Please comprehend that Bush is a terrorist, and has terrorised millions of people just like binladen. One does it from a cave and with blunt expressions while the other does it behind a desk and in a suit with twisted words and through groups of special interest.

Great point.
 

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Re: Another take on the Bali bombings by Christopher Hitchens

Surenderer said:
Who says that Muslims arent against them? We can only preach out against this behavior in Mosques and communites and try to show the Non-Muslims who are willing to learn that all Muslims arent violent.... you guys keep saying that Muslims "should report the Terrorists in their mist" like we know who they are but what makes you think we know? do you think the Muslims in Bali knew? Why didnt Americans report the Olympic bomber? or Timothy Mcvey? Heard anything from anyone about the Anthrax killers?......These guys hide among their own type



peace

So your going to compare 2 instances to 100's or 1000's all over the world? Sorry but that dog don't hunt, and that comparison don't fly. YES there are many muslims in the ME right now that I believe know of something going on that shouldn't be. So is bin laden hiding amongst his people incogneto? Comon now. The whole world knows who he is. We aren't talking about 4 guys in there basement. We are talking about a very large group organizing coordinated attacks. Thats a pretty glaring difference, and when your working with a large group people know things.
 

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kal-el said:
Great point.


Matches the one on his head...:rofl :doh

Just kiddin, it comes out sometimes when I read stupid ass posts.......
 

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Re: Another take on the Bali bombings by Christopher Hitchens

Gandhi>Bush said:
We're talking about judging an entire faith, one that represents over over a sixth of the world's population, by the actions of it's most extreme and radical members. I think that's an unfair and inaccurate predjudice.

I don't give a damn if Islam comprises 99% of the world's population. It is still a bunch of crap. Here is an e-mail I just received and it tells it like it is.
==================================
Get out if you want Sharia law, Australia tells Muslims.........

CANBERRA: Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks. A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to Australia at a special meeting with Prime Minister John Howard, he and his ministers made it clear that extremists would face a crackdown.

Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not accept that Australia was a secular state and its laws were made by parliament. "If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you," he said on national television. "I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws governing people in Australia, one the Australian law and another the Islamic law, that that is false.

If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the opportunity to go to another country which practices it, perhaps, then, that's a better option," Costello said. Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he said those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked to move to the other country.

Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that Muslims who did not want to accept local values should "clear off". "Basically, people who don't want to be Australians, and they don't want to live by Australian values and understand them, well then they can basically clear off," he said. Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spies monitoring the nation's mosques.

AMERICANS.....ARE YOU LISTENING? and reading?
 

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Re: Another take on the Bali bombings by Christopher Hitchens

Missouri Mule said:
I don't give a damn if Islam comprises 99% of the world's population. It is still a bunch of crap. Here is an e-mail I just received and it tells it like it is.

Tells it like it is? Never once did the prime minister suggest that all Muslims are terrorists. Never once did he suggest that Australia should disallow Muslims to enter it's society. He said that Australia is a place of democracy and would not ever be a nation ruled by Sharia law. Wow. That's not very controversial. Saying something as retarded as putting spies in Mosques doesn't exactly aid the effort to "head off potential terrorist attacks," but saying something intelligent like this is a secular country isn't a terrible thing. It's completely different from what we were talking about in the first place.
 

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Re: Another take on the Bali bombings by Christopher Hitchens

Gandhi>Bush said:
Tells it like it is? Never once did the prime minister suggest that all Muslims are terrorists. Never once did he suggest that Australia should disallow Muslims to enter it's society. He said that Australia is a place of democracy and would not ever be a nation ruled by Sharia law. Wow. That's not very controversial. Saying something as retarded as putting spies in Mosques doesn't exactly aid the effort to "head off potential terrorist attacks," but saying something intelligent like this is a secular country isn't a terrible thing. It's completely different from what we were talking about in the first place.

And neither did I. But why take the chance? Just keep them out. We have no shortage of non threatening immigrants who won't blow up buildings and people by the thousands; if not millions if they get the bomb.

There is nothing but trouble in allowing these people in here. What do they bring to the table? They will never change because if they change it will mean their "religion" will be irrelevant. It can't change. It is ultimately self-destructive to others and to themselves. We don't need the aggravation; the random murder of innocents; the hate filled speeches of their "religious leaders" who constantly shout "Death to the Infidels" and spin bizarre conspiracy tales and especially hate and wish death to Americans. When did our immigration laws become interpreted to mean that we voluntarily have to commit national suicide? That's exactly what we are doing by allowing these people in here. It is an unnecessary risk.
 

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Re: Another take on the Bali bombings by Christopher Hitchens

Missouri Mule said:
And neither did I. But why take the chance? Just keep them out. We have no shortage of non threatening immigrants who won't blow up buildings and people by the thousands; if not millions if they get the bomb.

Terrorist immigrants are threatening immigrants. Arabs and Muslims are not threatening immigrants. By isolating ourselves from Muslims and by ridding our country of them it only gives more creedence to any cleric that would call us an anti-semetic immoral society. We should not hand radical clerics such substance and ammunition.

There is nothing but trouble in allowing these people in here. What do they bring to the table? They will never change because if they change it will mean their "religion" will be irrelevant. It can't change. It is ultimately self-destructive to others and to themselves. We don't need the aggravation; the random murder of innocents; the hate filled speeches of their "religious leaders" who constantly shout "Death to the Infidels" and spin bizarre conspiracy tales and especially hate and wish death to Americans. When did our immigration laws become interpreted to mean that we voluntarily have to commit national suicide? That's exactly what we are doing by allowing these people in here. It is an unnecessary risk.

You have attributed characteristics of radical Islamics to all Muslims. Stop.
 

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Re: Another take on the Bali bombings by Christopher Hitchens

Gandhi>Bush said:
Terrorist immigrants are threatening immigrants. Arabs and Muslims are not threatening immigrants. By isolating ourselves from Muslims and by ridding our country of them it only gives more creedence to any cleric that would call us an anti-semetic immoral society. We should not hand radical clerics such substance and ammunition.

You have attributed characteristics of radical Islamics to all Muslims. Stop
.

No, I have not done that. I've said why take the chance? We don't need more Muslims here. They bring nothing to the table except an evil ideology.
 
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