Should Muslims be permitted to immigrate to the United States

[Diogenes]

The target of nonviolence is something inside a man. Call it spirit, call it morality, call it psychology, whatever it is, when it has been applied it has never failed. If you can show me a case where it did not work, I will tell you the the mistake made.

Terrorists and their masters are not men inside, although there may be a superficial resemblance on the outside. On the inside they are mad dogs, and after thousands of years of domestication, there is still only one way to deal with a mad dog. Clue: Nonviolence is not the answer.

I do not have to prove why something is in all humans, you have to prove why these are different.

If you cannot see what is plainly in front of your eyes, I cannot help you.

Does the common Arab think? What kind of a question is that?

You are the one who made that assumption, and I merely asked if you had any evidence to support it. I guess I have my answer.

Have you ever spoke to a Muslim or a man from the Middle East?

Many times, with many friends from that area over the last 50 years.

Nonviolent NONCOOPERATION. Nonviolence has nothing to do with submission.

Nonviolent noncooperation is suicide when you are faced with a mad dog. Those who do not actively oppose forceful oppression will either live as slaves or they will die (see The Gulag Archipelago for one example)

First of all buddy, you have no right stipulating what form of government the PA needs to be inorder for the palestinians to be given their rightful liberation. The Palestinians need not demonstrate anything to you or Bush or any government that they are 'fit' to be given what is rightfully theirs.

One of the requirements to be a legitimate government is that they not be a haven and sponsor for terrorist acts committed on their neighbors. Germany, Japan and Italy made your argument in WWII, and they lost; when they were ready to rejoin the community of nations as responsible members they were allowed to do so. Likewise Palestine will be allowed to join the community of nations when they demonstrate that they can behave responsibly. And not until then.

The way you refer to the democratically elected representative government of the Palestinian people, as if it were a child is disgusting.

It is the Palestinian behavior that is disgusting. When they are mature enough to be treated as other than unruly children, they will be treated as adults.

The bigotry and racism you portray by claiming that the illegal occupation of Palestine is justifyable and that Palestinians dont yet deserve their liberation is unbelievable. No divine or human law or code of edict stipulates a wronged and occupied people show they are 'fit' to get back what is theirs in the first place.

The "occupation" is perfectly justifiable as a matter of self defense. True, they have lost some land and will not get it back - that is the price of failed aggression (1948, 1956, 1967, 1973), and it has always been thus for all of history. In fact the Israelis have been remarkably lenient compared to the Muslim practicce of conquest. Perhaps the Palestinians would do well to do a bit of soul searching, and ask why Allah is so angry with them that he has visited this plague of adult supervision upon them - or is it part of their religion that they must be exempt from the consequences of their errors in judgement?

Also, Mahmoud Abbas is now the democratically elected president, and whether you like him or not he is the legitamite chief executive of the palestinian people.

Agreed, and the Palestinians as a people will be judged by the quality of his leadership. If he is able to control the terrorists, Palestine can be accepted as one of the world's sovereign nations. If not, the Palestinians will continue to be regarded as undisciplined savages in need of close supervision.

You tell me who the barbarians are.

I have, several times.

Last thing, I never asserted Prophet Muhammad or his companions calculated the circumference of the earth, I asserted Muslim Scientists did some 1300 years before the 'western pope' recognized the earth was round. I didnt say they were the first, but I asserted it to make a point to my texas neighbor that the 'shizzhole' idea he has about the middle east is wrong.

Congratulations on Muslim scientists mastering enough geometry to eventually duplicate the results of the Greeks. I concede that the west erred in the early days by allowing religion to become too closely involved with government and science - when theories become part of religious doctrine, all progress stops and the society becomes fossilized. But at least in the west we had a reformation followed by an age of enlightenment, and it is sad to see the Muslim world mired in errors we left behind many centuries ago. I suggest you check this article, The Shah Always Falls, which reads in part,

In Islam the historical symmetry is chilling. Within 10 years of Gutenberg’s invention of movable type, a prince, astronomer, mathematician, and poet, Ulûgh Beg of Samarqand, built a great observatory. He was a genius, their Galileo, but the mullahs murdered him, and I take that moment as the point at which it all started calcifying. There are myriad factors in the Islamic decline, but the decline itself has been irreversible. Muslims never turn it around; they never have their reformation that breaks down the one true path. You’re either Sunni or Shiah, or perhaps a Sufi offshoot cult. And the reason Indonesia has a chance is that it’s never signed up for one path.

You guys have just got to quit killing the people who can bring you out of the 7th century. Your Texas neighbor is right.

 

[Missouri Mule]

Zionist aspirations for palestine date back to as early as the 18th century and productive action as early as the 19th century.

I strongly suggest you read this if you have the time sir, it could give you a better understanding of the background leading up to the creation of Israel.

http://www.mideastweb.org/zionism.htm

I'm sure that Zionism existed well before Hitler stepped onto the stage but it was just an idea. WWII and its aftermath made it reality. You should know that perfectly well.

As I said, this is one of history's great ironies. While Hitler systematically slaughtered European Jews by the millions he laid the groundwork for the modern state of Israel. No way on earth would it have occurred; especially with U.N. assistance, without Hitler's "final solution." That's a fact. and you can go to the bank on it.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Terrorists and their masters are not men inside, although there may be a superficial resemblance on the outside. On the inside they are mad dogs, and after thousands of years of domestication, there is still only one way to deal with a mad dog. Clue: Nonviolence is not the answer.

Again with the animal analogies.

Men are men. Inside and out. If you want to truly solve this problem, you will answer this: Why has this "dog" gone "mad?"

You are the one who made that assumption, and I merely asked if you had any evidence to support it. I guess I have my answer.

You have offered that a terrorist is without feelings and characteristics that are in all men. You can back up your statement with proof or not. It is not my job to shoot down your theories, you are supposed to proove them.

Many times, with many friends from that area over the last 50 years.

And would you say that they do not think? That they do not have shame or decency? That they are any different from you?

Nonviolent noncooperation is suicide when you are faced with a mad dog. Those who do not actively oppose forceful oppression will either live as slaves or they will die (see The Gulag Archipelago for one example)

The threat of a tyrannical government and the threat of a society or a collective of certain men are two completely different threats. In such a situation, I would choose to be killed rather than to kill and never would I ever be any man's slave.

"They may have your life, but they will never have your obedience." - Mohandas K. Gandhi

 

[Missouri Mule]

Everything you wanted to know about Muslim Immigrants but were afraid to ask.

Long, and detailed but it makes the case we are extremely vulnerable to Al Queda. Ignore at your peril.

Immigration and Terrorism: Beyond the 9/11 Report
By Janice L. Kephart
CIS.org | September 30, 2005

OH GOD, you who open all doors, please open all doors for me, open all venues for me, open all avenues for me.
— Mohammed Atta

Executive Summary
This report covers the immigration histories of 94 terrorists who operated in the United States between the early 1990s and 2004, including six of the September 11th hijackers. Other than the hijackers, almost all of these individuals have been indicted or convicted for their crimes. The report builds on prior work done by 9/11 Commission and the Center for Immigration Studies, providing more information than has been previously been made public.

The findings show widespread terrorist violations of immigration laws. The report highlights the danger of our lax immigration system, not just in terms of who is allowed in, but also how terrorists, once in the country, used weaknesses in the system to remain here. The report makes clear that strict enforcement of immigration law – at American consulates overseas, at ports of entry, and within the United States – must be an integral part of our efforts to prevent future attacks on U.S. soil...


(Snip)

http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=19671

 

[Diogenes]

Men are men. Inside and out. If you want to truly solve this problem, you will answer this: Why has this "dog" gone "mad?"

It doesn't matter why the dog has gone mad. The fact remains that there is only one way to deal with him.

You have offered that a terrorist is without feelings and characteristics that are in all men.

There you go again with that assumption that every man has a better nature somewhere inside him. You can back up your assertion with proof or not. It is not my job to shoot down your theories, you are supposed to prove them - or at least offer some supporting evidence.

And would you say that they do not think? That they do not have shame or decency? That they are any different from you?

The ones I've met are honorable folks (most of them anyway), but they have left their cesspool of a culture behind them. You are the one who is trying to equate the civilized ones who have emigrated with the uncivilized ones who have not.

The threat of a tyrannical government and the threat of a society or a collective of certain men are two completely different threats.

Perhaps on a meaningless abstract level, but there is no difference in practical effect.

In such a situation, I would choose to be killed rather than to kill and never would I ever be any man's slave.

That's your choice. My choice is different.

"They may have your life, but they will never have your obedience." - Mohandas K. Gandhi

Ghandi wouldn't last ten minutes against a determined despot like Saddam or Arafat or Stalin. The only reason that quotation exists is because he applied his tactics against a civilized people.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

It doesn't matter why the dog has gone mad. The fact remains that there is only one way to deal with him.

These people are not dogs. If they are a dog, then so are you and so am I. They believe that they have been attacked so they retalliate. You believe you have been attacked so you retalliate, and to both of you retalliation means killing.

There you go again with that assumption that every man has a better nature somewhere inside him. You can back up your assertion with proof or not. It is not my job to shoot down your theories, you are supposed to prove them - or at least offer some supporting evidence.

There is no supporting evidence for any philosophy especially as one as widely accepted as "There is good in all men." I want to know why it is you believe that everyone in the "civilized" world has the qualities, but the Arab does not.

The ones I've met are honorable folks (most of them anyway), but they have left their cesspool of a culture behind them. You are the one who is trying to equate the civilized ones who have emigrated with the uncivilized ones who have not.

So "civilized" is now determined on where one lives? How one lives? I've talked to a man who not two years ago emigrated from Iran. He is still a Muslim and he has not thrown away or left his "cesspool of a culture" behind. He does not hate our culture, he envies it. Does he hate our government, our foriegn policy? Of course he does. I've talked to him about nonviolence and he says that it is impossible to use nonviolence against the US. Think about that. While I do not believe it to be impossible to use nonviolence against the US it wouldn't certainly be difficult.

Perhaps on a meaningless abstract level, but there is no difference in practical effect.

That's just silly.

That's your choice. My choice is different.

As I've seen. You've got no problems with killing and hatred. You cannot expect to end something if you participate in it.

Ghandi wouldn't last ten minutes against a determined despot like Saddam or Arafat or Stalin. The only reason that quotation exists is because he applied his tactics against a civilized people.

Really when Gandhi would declare a "day or prayer" and everyone India stayed at home rather than going to work, you think that wouldn't last 10 minutes? Think. All it takes is resolve and more strength than it might take to use a hand gun.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Hello Everyone,

1) Some of the people that replied to my post didnt seem to want to comprehend the point I was trying to make about terrorism, therefore I will try to elaborate some more in hopes of getting my point accross.

The most obvious and undisputed defenition of Terrorism is: the act violence intended to terrorize its victim.

In the United States, the Media (through Government channels and foreign influence) has stereo typed a terrorist as an able bodied muslim with radical views that uses unconventional methods of violence to destroy a certain target and send a message accross through the aftermath.


But if we try to think clearer about the mehaning of the word terrorism, we will realize that the United States and her allies have committed many many more acts of violence with the intention of getting a message accross...The only difference is that the Governments used their 'conventional' military and weaponry to commit these acts of terror. If we are to continue to stereo type muslims and arabs and anyone commiting a violent crime that isnt part of a conventional military as a terrorist and continue to close our eyes to the same and more destructive crimes commited by our own representative governments then we have been brainwashed and there is no reason for any of us participating in this discussion to continue any further.

My comrades, terror is terror is crime is violence is conventional is nonconventional is state terror is group terror is individual terror. terror is terror. American occupation of iraq is terrorism. Al-qaedas crimes against the world are terrorism. Heroshima and Nagasaki is terrorism. Russian war against chechniya and chechen group attacks in russia are terrorism. 60 Year israeli occupation of Palestinian land, deprivation of four million refugees of their right of return, occupation of arab land, control of the water supply, monopolising the capitalist dictatorship in the middle east is state terrorism at its finest, funded and supported by the taxes we all pay every day buying our cappuchino, paper, ect. If we are to continue to ignore terrorism committed by the 'western suit wearing civilizations' and stereo type it to be a word unanimous with muslims and arabs then we are an ignorant people that deserve the two party dictatorship ruling us for the past century. Thomas Jefferson would be rolling in his grave if he knew that the 'free press' has limited our thinking and contrained our free spirit and will to greater civilization and become the governments greatest asset in controlling the american people.


For those of you who are willing to understand and have an open channel dialogue with me, I would like to end my point...Muslims are not and have never been the driving force behind terrorism, and terrorism is has not, is not, and will not be committed by muslims alone, and as it is now and has been -- the bulk of terrorism is not commited by muslims.

Fighting fire with fire will only create more fire.

Open your minds, quit being slaves in spirit.

The media didn't sterotype muslims as terrorist. Muslim extremist positioned them self knowingly as terorrist. There is no argument here. The world kows they're terrorist. They decided to go pay a little visit in Bali over the weekend. Needed to kill a few nightblub goers I guess. We all know what a threat they posed to the muslim and islam.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

MissouriMule,

Continuing a debate with you is futile because you cant seem to get past a narrow channel of thinking youve created for yourself suiting your personal (in my opinion racist views). Aside from the obviously blurred understanding of foreign politics and history, you seem to find it noteworthy mentioning that its allright for the US to conduct largescale massacres of innocents to save the lives of its soldiers in WW2. You seem to think BinLaden and his organization's agenda is 'world domination'. And Just like Binladen doesnt want any foreigner in muslim lands, you are fine with barring good people from a chance to immigrate to yournation because they share his ethnic background. Let me remind you that there was a time your ancestors immigrated here just like muslims today and probably faced the same kind of ignorant rejection you spew today. I wont bother arguing with you until you sort out the illconstrued opinions you carry about foreigners and the propaganda you carry about them relayed to you by people and media organizations with special interests. Do you watch Fox News by any chance?


------

Id like to comment about the PA discussion if I may...
The Palestinian Authority has weak security and legaslative institutions stemming from the fact that it is one of the world's youngest representative governments and functions under a demoralising and repressive occupation. Corruption was rampant and to some degrees still exists within the executive branch of the PA. That is a shame, and only helps prolong the Israeli excuse for illegal occupation. We must keep in mind however that this underfunded governing authority is dealing with daily issues surpassing domestic governing affairs and include campaining for the removal of the racist seperation wall cutting through palestinian land and dividing families and towns. The same ill intentions that brought about the creation of the berlin wall now create the 21st century version of it in palestinian land. The PA is a governing authority that deals with an occupation aimed at deligitimizing it and suffocating its people into collective ghettos to be subjected to a 'spirit breaking' acceptance of israeli military reality. Under these circumstances, corruption (never excused or accepted) naturally exists and hampers efforts by the palestinian and world communities to undo the wrongs committed against them over the past 60 years.

It is nobodies right to legitimize israeli occupation be delegitimizing the PA rule over the palestinian people. The PA is a democratically elected government and the greatest mistake we can make is to continue the enslavement of palestinian people because their representative government cant seem to provide for them what the israeli government provides to its people through the occupation of palestine.

thank you.

Sounds like what your saying is you refuse to debate him until he agrees with your views on the world.. LOL now thats one way to try an win ...LOL

 

[Jenin]

Diogenes,

LoL....Im not going to debate you man, you believe what you believe... Let me just tell you one thing -- the Palestinian nation is here to stay for all eternity, the ghetto massess always upsetting your beautiful view of a 'western society' and you cant do anything about it.....
Keep the BS rhetoric to yourself you ignorant zealot.

"Palestine, full '67 borders, the return of refugees, Jerusalem as its capital....Whether you like it or not, and if you dont, got drink the gaza sea and tile it!" -- The father of Palestine, the Great President Arafat (RIP).

Red White Green Black


Thank you

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Diogenes,

LoL....Im not going to debate you man, you believe what you believe... Let me just tell you one thing -- the Palestinian nation is here to stay for all eternity, the ghetto massess always upsetting your beautiful view of a 'western society' and you cant do anything about it.....
Keep the BS rhetoric to yourself you ignorant zealot.

"Palestine, full '67 borders, the return of refugees, Jerusalem as its capital....Whether you like it or not, and if you dont, got drink the gaza sea and tile it!" -- The father of Palestine, the Great President Arafat (RIP).

Red White Green Black


Thank you

I say GOOD for the palestinian nation...

Now how do we get them to stop killing people?

I know, it's a very simplistic question. Not sure what any of this has to do with the thread though.

I think someone hijacked the thread... Wonder who would do such a thing...?? LMAO

 

[Moderate]

I say GOOD for the palestinian nation...

Now how do we get them to stop killing people?

I know, it's a very simplistic question. Not sure what any of this has to do with the thread though.

I think someone hijacked the thread... Wonder who would do such a thing...?? LMAO

And by them you mean all the palestinians? I think what Hammas does is diplorable but I can't turn a blind eye to what Israel has done too. Thats what got us into this mess to begin with.

 

[Moderate]

By the way, there is nothing great about Arafat.

The scumbag was the biggest hypocrit of the region. He would say one thing to the West then say the exact opposite to the Palestinians.

If he died 10 years ago I would imagine some progress would be made in the ME, and our population would be nearly 3,000 people larger.

 

[Missouri Mule]

This business about Israel is one huge smokescreen. 9/11 didn't have anything to do with Palestine. Not a thing. This thread is not about whether or not the Israelis ought to be kicked out of the Middle East. We could take them all and relocate them as I have suggested but we would still be blamed even if we got completely out of the Middle East. The Islamists fanatics will NEVER rest until they convert the entire world to their vision of rule. You can look it up. Bin Laden and his kind have spoken to this issue at great length.

When our embassies were being bombed, our hostages beheaded, our ships nearly sunk, our hostages in Iran, etc., didn't have anything to do with Palestine and the Jews. It had everything to do with the dysfunctional Muslim lands which are ruled by maniacal despots. Most of the people are ignorant and gullible. (remember the Koran debacle.) They are as T.E. Lawrence once observed a "silly people." They never learn and they never will so long as they embrace this 7th Century cult of death. Should that change, then they will finally be able to crawl out of this hole of their own making. Until then they will be viewed (rightly) as the purveyers of violence, mayhem, murder and mindless fanaticism.

Letting these people into the U.S. is like inviting the local ax murderer into your home to play with your children.

We'll have more and much more serious 9/11's in the future. And I doubly guarantee the violence will be done by fanatical Muslims. It won't be the Hare Krishnas, the Jehovah Witnesses, or God forbid -- "Christian Fundamentalists."

 

[Moderate]

This business about Israel is one huge smokescreen. 9/11 didn't have anything to do with Palestine. Not a thing. This thread is not about whether or not the Israelis ought to be kicked out of the Middle East. We could take them all and relocate them as I have suggested but we would still be blamed even if we got completely out of the Middle East. The Islamists fanatics will NEVER rest until they convert the entire world to their vision of rule. You can look it up. Bin Laden and his kind have spoken to this issue at great length.

So your saying that the US support of Israel has nothing to do why the ME hates us? And thus add to the population of idiots joining terror groups? Thats pretty ignorant. If the west was traditionally "nice" to the middle east for the past century I doubt people like Bin Laden would be able to recruit as well as he does.

But what ever, I personaly wouldn't mind dropping a nuke and threatenning to use it again and again untill the ME takes care of it's "pest problems"

 

[Missouri Mule]

So your saying that the US support of Israel has nothing to do why the ME hates us? And thus add to the population of idiots joining terror groups? Thats pretty ignorant. If the west was traditionally "nice" to the middle east for the past century I doubt people like Bin Laden would be able to recruit as well as he does.

But what ever, I personaly wouldn't mind dropping a nuke and threatenning to use it again and again untill the ME takes care of it's "pest problems"

No, I'm not saying that. "Hate" is a full time occupation of most Middle Easterners. Americans are just a convenient target because of our relationship to Israel. If not for Israel, they would hate us for other reasons; not the least of which is that we as a nation are successful while most of them live in a cesspool of religious hatred. It has gotten to the point of what do they think of first in the morning? Who do they hate the most and who can they blow up causing the most dead and injured? It is a headlong race into the bowels of hell. On that score, we are just second raters. They have a strangle hold on that skill.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

So your saying that the US support of Israel has nothing to do why the ME hates us? And thus add to the population of idiots joining terror groups? Thats pretty ignorant. If the west was traditionally "nice" to the middle east for the past century I doubt people like Bin Laden would be able to recruit as well as he does.

But what ever, I personaly wouldn't mind dropping a nuke and threatenning to use it again and again untill the ME takes care of it's "pest problems"

That would definetly get there attention

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

But what ever, I personaly wouldn't mind dropping a nuke and threatenning to use it again and again untill the ME takes care of it's "pest problems"

Surely then we would get the Middle East back on our side...

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Surely then we would get the Middle East back on our side...

But if it hapens enough we would have a rather large parking lot.

 

[Diogenes]

These people are not dogs. If they are a dog, then so are you and so am I.

You are judging the book by its cover, which is always a serious error.

They believe that they have been attacked so they retalliate. You believe you have been attacked so you retalliate, and to both of you retalliation means killing.

If you could sell your philosophy to the Middle Eastern Muslims, the world would benefit. Have you tried?

There is no supporting evidence for any philosophy especially as one as widely accepted as "There is good in all men."

Excellent! Then you recognize the possibility of psychopaths who may superficially resemble men, but have the souls of mad dogs.

I want to know why it is you believe that everyone in the "civilized" world has the qualities, but the Arab does not.

It is the qualities that define civilized, not the ethnic background or geographic location. The extremists define themselves as being outside the pale of humanity.

You've got no problems with killing and hatred. You cannot expect to end something if you participate in it.

Nonsense. A mad dog must be killed quickly and without hate. When the dog is dead, the problems end.

LoL....Im not going to debate you man, you believe what you believe... Let me just tell you one thing -- the Palestinian nation is here to stay for all eternity, the ghetto massess always upsetting your beautiful view of a 'western society' and you cant do anything about it.....
Keep the BS rhetoric to yourself you ignorant zealot.

Nice debating technique you've got there, pal. I bet you convince lots of people with your smooth reasoning and presentation.

Palestinians have never had a nation other than Jordan, which is also the only nation ever to accept them. Why is it that none of the other Arab nations want them?

"Palestine, full '67 borders, the return of refugees, Jerusalem as its capital....Whether you like it or not, and if you dont, got drink the gaza sea and tile it!" -- The father of Palestine, the Great President Arafat

So what happened in 1967 to disturb those borders?

Describing Arafat as the father of Palestine may explain why the birth of the nation became a spontaneous abortion.

I know, it's a very simplistic question. Not sure what any of this has to do with the thread though.

Palestinian terrorists are the poster children for the subject of the thread. Terrorism has always been endemic in the Middle East, but suicide attacks were nearly unknown for centuries until Arafat revived the practice.

And by them you mean all the palestinians? I think what Hammas does is diplorable but I can't turn a blind eye to what Israel has done too. Thats what got us into this mess to begin with.

Ever since time began, the traditional Middle East practice after conquest has been to kill or enslave the conquered people. Israel has been far too lenient by Arab standards, and the Arab militants interpret this as a sign of weakness.

 

[Surenderer]

Palestinian terrorists are the poster children for the subject of the thread. Terrorism has always been endemic in the Middle East, but suicide attacks were nearly unknown for centuries until Arafat revived the practice.

Ummm.....suicide bombers were quite relevant during WW2(How could anyone do it earlier in history without planes or bombs :roll: )....I actually saw the movie Independence Day and the "hick drunk" whom drove his plane into the alien spaceship(suicide bomber) was painted as the hero of the movie:shock:

Ever since time began, the traditional Middle East practice after conquest has been to kill or enslave the conquered people. Israel has been far too lenient by Arab standards, and the Arab militants interpret this as a sign of weakness.

Ever since time began all people have sought to enslave or conquer people....Sorry but all Arabs/Muslims dont hate Israel but please continue to spam that misinformation if you want to continue painting Jews as victims....but that tatic doesnt benefit them or the rest of the World



peace

 

[Surenderer]

double post

 

[Missouri Mule]

Steyn nails it.

Can there any longer be any doubt what is in for us if we don't face up to the worldwide threat of Islamism?
===============================

Mark Steyn: Islamist way or no way

04oct05

IT'S not just the environmentalists who think globally and act locally. The jihadi who murdered Newcastle woman Jennifer Williamson, Perth teenager Brendan Fitzgerald and a couple of dozen more Australians, Indonesians, Japanese and others had certain things in common with the July 7 London Tube killers. For example, Azahari bin Husin, who police believe may be the bomb-maker behind this weekend's atrocity, completed a doctorate at England's Reading University. The contribution of the British education system to the jihad is really quite remarkable.

But, on the other hand, despite Clive Williams's game attempt to connect the two on this page yesterday, nobody seriously thinks what happened in Bali has anything to do with Iraq. There are, in the end, no root causes, or anyway not ones that can be negotiated by troop withdrawals or a Palestinian state. There is only a metastasising cancer that preys on whatever local conditions are to hand. Five days before the slaughter in Bali, nine Islamists were arrested in Paris for reportedly plotting to attack the Metro. Must be all those French troops in Iraq, right? So much for the sterling efforts of President Jacques Chirac and his Prime Minister, Dominique de Villepin, as the two chief obstructionists of Bush-Blair-Howard neo-con-Zionist warmongering these past three years.

When the suicide bombers self-detonated on Saturday, the travel section of Britain's The Sunday Telegraph had already gone to press, its lead story a feature on how Bali's economy had bounced back from the carnage of 2002. We all want to believe that: one terrorist attack is like a tsunami or hurricane, just one of those things, blows in out of the blue, then the familiar contours of the landscape return. But two attacks are a permanent feature, the way things are and will be for some years, as one by one the bars and hotels and clubs and restaurants shut up shop. Many of the Australians injured this weekend had waited to return to Bali, just to make sure it was "safe". But it isn't, and it won't be for a long time, and by the time it is it won't be the Bali that Westerners flocked to before 2002.

I found myself behind a car in Vermont, in the US, the other day; it had a one-word bumper sticker with the injunction "COEXIST". It's one of those sentiments beloved of Western progressives, one designed principally to flatter their sense of moral superiority. The C was the Islamic crescent, the O was the hippie peace sign, the X was the Star of David and the T was the Christian cross. Very nice, hard to argue with. But the reality is, it's the first of those symbols that has a problem with coexistence. Take the crescent out of the equation and you wouldn't need a bumper sticker at all. Indeed, coexistence is what the Islamists are at war with; or, if you prefer, pluralism, the idea that different groups can rub along together within the same general neighbourhood. There are many trouble spots across the world but, as a general rule, even if one gives no more than a cursory glance at the foreign pages, it's easy to guess at least one of the sides: Muslims v Jews in Palestine, Muslims v Hindus in Kashmir, Muslims v Christians in Nigeria, Muslims v Buddhists in southern Thailand, Muslims v (your team here). Whatever one's views of the merits on a case by case basis, the ubiquitousness of one team is a fact.

"Men of intemperate mind never can be free; their passions forge their fetters," wrote Edmund Burke. And, in that sense, Bali is more symbolic of the Islamofascist strategy than London or Madrid, Beslan or Istanbul. The jihad has held out against some tough enemies: the Israelis in the West Bank, the Russians in Chechnya; these are primal conflicts. But what's the beef in Bali? Oh, to be sure, to the more fastidious Islamist some of those decadent hedonist fornicating Westerners whooping it up are a little offensive. But they'd be offensive whoever they were and whatever they did. It's the reality of a pluralist enclave within the world's largest Muslim nation that offends. It's the coexistence, stupid.

So even Muslims v (your team here) doesn't quite cover it. You don't have to have a team or even be aware that you belong to any side. You can be a hippie-dippy hey-man-I-love-everybody-whatever-your-bag-is-cool backpacking Dutch stoner, and they'll blow you up with as much enthusiasm as if you were Dick Cheney. As a spokesman for the Islamic Army of Aden put it in 2002, explaining why they bombed a French oil tanker: "We would have preferred to hit a US frigate, but no problem because they are all infidels."...

(Snip)

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16801982^7583,00.html



Mark Steyn, a columnist with the Telegraph Group, is a regular contributor to The Australian's Opinion page.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Ummm.....suicide bombers were quite relevant during WW2(How could anyone do it earlier in history without planes or bombs :roll: )....I actually saw the movie Independence Day and the "hick drunk" whom drove his plane into the alien spaceship(suicide bomber) was painted as the hero of the movie:shock:





Ever since time began all people have sought to enslave or conquer people....Sorry but all Arabs/Muslims dont hate Israel but please continue to spam that misinformation if you want to continue painting Jews as victims....but that tatic doesnt benefit them or the rest of the World



peace

Pandering to those that wish to kill inocent woman and children in an attempt to enforce or coerce there religious doctrine on the world doesn't seem to be working very well either.

 

[Missouri Mule]

Another take on the Bali bombings by Christopher Hitchens

Another clear headed thinker on Islamist fanaticism.
================================
Why Ask Why?
Terrorist attacks aren't caused by any policy except that of the bombers themselves.
By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Monday, Oct. 3, 2005, at 8:00 AM PT

The return of murderous nihilism to Bali is highly instructive. It shows, first, that the fanatics of Islamism don't know how to stop. And it also shows that they never learn. How can Jemaah Islamiyah, which almost ruined Indonesia's economy by its filthy attack three years ago, possibly have tried to repeat the same crime in the same place? If we look for answers to this question, we shall find answers that completely discredit the current half-baked apologies for terrorism.

I remember going to Bali from Jakarta in the summer of 2003. I had already toured the wreckage of the Marriott Hotel in the capital city, which was blown up by a suicide team just as I arrived, slaying several Muslim cab drivers who were waiting in line outside. The rage of the local population was something to be seen: The widows of the dead men were calling for the perpetrators to be tortured before they were executed. In Bali, which is a more mild and temperate place, a huge candlelit march had followed the bombings that had devastated the tourist hangouts in Kuta. I made a point of going to Legian Street, which had been the "ground zero" of this fiery atrocity, and of attending the opening of Paddy's Bar Reloaded, where so many genial Australians had been foully incinerated. The prevailing view was that JI had isolated itself and that the trial of the perpetrators would expose them to popular contempt—which indeed it did.

But if JI were rational, it wouldn't have attacked the bars and clubs and beaches of Kuta and Jimbaran in the first place. Indonesia is a mainly Muslim society, whose government takes a stern line against the war in Iraq and even Afghanistan. Its people, who are astonishingly hospitable to all foreigners, depend in millions of cases on tourism to make the difference between indigence and the minimum wage. Its elections feature Muslim political parties, many of them quite austere in their propaganda. Why on earth, then, would a fundamentalist group wish to bring discredit upon itself and ruin upon its neighbors by resorting to random slaughter?...

(Snip)

So, what did Indonesia do to deserve this, or bring it on itself? How will the slaughter in Bali improve the lot of the Palestinians? Those who look for the connection will be doomed to ask increasingly stupid questions and to be content with increasingly wicked answers.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2127343/

 

[Surenderer]

Pandering to those that wish to kill inocent woman and children in an attempt to enforce or coerce there religious doctrine on the world doesn't seem to be working very well either.

How am I pandering towards terrorists? They would want to kill me before they would want to kill you (as seen in Iraq)....Please if you are going to admonish me then please be more specific ....you keep misinterpeting everything I say to make it seem as if I advocate the terrorist mind when I have said nothing of the sort.....remember I am the one who says the killing of innocents is ALWAYS wrong (cough Hiroshima) not situational like you seem to like to think........But question for you though.......Do you think that supporting a terrorist Nation or regime qualifies one as a terrorist themselves?....curious of your opinion....thanks




peace