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Should Muslims be permitted to immigrate to the United States

Should Muslims be permitted to immigrate to the United States?

  • Yes

    Votes: 42 66.7%
  • No

    Votes: 14 22.2%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 8 12.7%
  • Unsure

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    63

Missouri Mule

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The old thread has been closed due to its strain on the server and I was just about to respond to the following. I have reworded the question slightly to apply to immigration policies.

Quote:
I certainly agree with you about Israel's Mossad. If we had their capability (which we do not now have) we would be quite safe. Unfortunately, the left has ensured through their politically correct policies that we regard 80 year old grandmothers as having the same terrorist mentality as a 24 year old Muslim from Saudi Arabia, Syria, or Pakistan. It is insane. And it is likely to cost the lives of millions of innocent Americans sooner or later. All the experts in the terrorism fields have concurred with this assessment. Not a single one has demurred. It's going to happen and I'll tell you this. I WILL say "I told you so." I'm not going to let the left as embodied by the treasonous ACLU off the hook. As far as I am concerned the blood will be on their hands. It is high time that all real Americans stand up on their own two hind legs and speak out against this threat to our way of life. So long as we are led around by the nose of the politically correct crowd we are in mortal danger. That is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

you didn't understand my post. Best security is the one not seen. I asked him the same question... I personally think profiling is essential, and I asked him during a discussion why Americans don't do it. He said political correctness. But THEN he added that political correctness prob doesn't stop ur FBI/CIA anyways. You don't have to see the security in action for it to be there
.
==========================


I understood your post. You might want to review the testimony of the 9/11 commission and "Able Danger" revelations. They make it quite clear that political correctness and bureaucracy was the overriding reason why 9/11 happened. We've nothing like what Israel has because of politics. Politics didn't cause 9/11 but it allowed it to happen. That is undeniable.

Politics will continue to put us in grave danger by putting forth nonsense that all immigrants are the same as every other immigrant. We have literally millions of Mexicans, both legal and illegal, in the U.S. How many have flown airliners into office buildings? Which makes my case even stronger. Since so few Muslims have come into the country compared to other nationalities and ethnic groups, why are they so highly represented among the terrorist population? There is only one reason that one can logically conclude. It is the religion. It is the same religion that was born some 13 centuries ago that countences the slaughter of "infidels" whereever they are found. And even the founder presided over the slaughter (beheading) of about 700 men at Medina. This is the legacy of Islam and Mohammad. And we want to treat these people the same as any other people? Until we can put a machine on their heads and read their minds and motives, we ought seriously to just keep them out. Otherwise the next 19 terrorists may slip through (if they are not already here) to bomb and kill again; and perhaps this time in the millions. Why do so many otherwise rational Amercans seemingly have this death wish? Beats the heck out of me.

At such a point in the future when Islam comes of age and disavows terrorism entirely, we have a duty to ourselves, our familes and future descendents to ensure that our nation is defended from weapons of mass destruction and mass murder carried out by terrorists. We can hide our heads in the sand and pretend that everyone is the same but that's simply a fantasy. It isn't so. It will never be so. That anyone should pretend otherwise baffles me no end.
 
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Diogenes

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Missouri Mule said:
At such a point in the future when Islam comes of age and disavows terrorism entirely, we have a duty to ourselves, our familes and future descendents to ensure that our nation is defended from weapons of mass destruction and mass murder carried out by terrorists. We can hide our heads in the sand and pretend that everyone is the same but that's simply a fantasy. It isn't so. It will never be so. That anyone should pretend otherwise baffles me no end.
Very well said.
 

nkgupta80

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19 people from the 40,000 coming every year did the terrorists attack in the US. Very very small percentage. The latter percentage of muslims are very well off in this country, good citizens, hardly in any other crime. We have millions of mexicans coming in, a lot of them live in poverty and consequently, a larger percent of mexicans are involved in criminal activity which includes murder, rape, theft etc. The numbers add up to be atleast the same as the muslims percentage wise if not more.

point of the matter is, that if as you say political correctness is hurting our national security to that point, we should really try to fix that, rather than forgo other freedoms that made up this country.

And from ur post, you seem to argue that if, as I said, CIA/FBI does profile and is doing their job, why did 9/11 happen. I am very surprised too. I mean seirously, 19 guys with little boxcutters take over a plane. I mean the feat itself is amazing, but our security couldn't even stop it. this isn't anything about political correctness. 19 guys being able to take over a few planes shows that our secuirty was ****, and thats the main problem. Our reaction to this shouldnt be to stop muslims from coming into this country, but to beef up our security in whatever way possible. Maybe the argument should be about politicla correctness and how it has become imbalanced, instead of this argument aobut MUslims not being able to enter the US.
 

Calm2Chaos

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If they are properly vetted then I don't see a problem. But I want full background checks before a foot is laid on this soil. I think Missouri Mule put it very well.
 

Missouri Mule

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nkgupta80 said:
19 people from the 40,000 coming every year did the terrorists attack in the US. Very very small percentage. The latter percentage of muslims are very well off in this country, good citizens, hardly in any other crime. We have millions of mexicans coming in, a lot of them live in poverty and consequently, a larger percent of mexicans are involved in criminal activity which includes murder, rape, theft etc. The numbers add up to be atleast the same as the muslims percentage wise if not more.

point of the matter is, that if as you say political correctness is hurting our national security to that point, we should really try to fix that, rather than forgo other freedoms that made up this country.

And from ur post, you seem to argue that if, as I said, CIA/FBI does profile and is doing their job, why did 9/11 happen. I am very surprised too. I mean seirously, 19 guys with little boxcutters take over a plane. I mean the feat itself is amazing, but our security couldn't even stop it. this isn't anything about political correctness. 19 guys being able to take over a few planes shows that our secuirty was ****, and thats the main problem. Our reaction to this shouldnt be to stop muslims from coming into this country, but to beef up our security in whatever way possible. Maybe the argument should be about politicla correctness and how it has become imbalanced, instead of this argument aobut MUslims not being able to enter the US.
What you say is essentially true but like all battles in war (and we are at war) one of the first goals is to cut down the size of the battlefield. That is to say, if we can eliminate the immigration of Muslims to a trickle or none at all, we can devote our limited resources and manpower toward increasing security for our citizens. The chances of bin Laden obtaining a nuclear warhead launched on a missle are relatively limited. The chances of smuggling in a nuclear bomb in a suitcase sized container are almost a certainty.

If you want to see how this might be accomplished, rent the Tom Clancy movie "Sum of all Fears" that illustrates this process. It was changed to show a fanatical right wing group doing the act although we know that it was intended to show an Islamic group who would actually carry this out. If this movie doesn't get your attention, the real thing certainly will. (Tom Clancy knows his stuff, BTW.)

So far as I know we are no closer to denying the next Mohammad Atta entry into this country today than we were prior to 9/11. He was after all, a legal visitor and consequently the FBI and the CIA were hamstrung in dealing with him. Had they done so, 9/11 would never have happened.

It'll happen sooner or later. That nuclear cloud. Think about Katrina and 9/11 rolled up all in one disaster. Then mulitiply it by a factor of 1,000 or so. By allowing these people into the country we are just needlessly risking the lives of American citizens. It is a foolish risk during wartime.
 

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Calm2Chaos said:
If they are properly vetted then I don't see a problem. But I want full background checks before a foot is laid on this soil. I think Missouri Mule put it very well.
Full backgrounds are fine. But like Katrina, the process is only as good as the people charged with carrying out the duties of doing these background checks. If they are incompetent, lazy or just downright stupid, the background checks will not be done well enough to prevent the next 9/11.

Why subject ourselves to the risk? Suppose you were going to go across a desert and you knew that it would take five days and you packed just enough food and water to last you exactly five days. You might make it but if you made a wrong turn or couldn't complete it within the five days you would be in deep do-do. We are in a similar situation today. We have neither adequate or competent personnel to ensure that no terrorist doesn't slip through the process. It only takes one terrorist and one prepositioned nuclear bomb to destroy NYC and our way of life. Is the risk worth it? I think not. We're effectively playing Russian Roulette, are we not?
 

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If you want to see how this might be accomplished, rent the Tom Clancy movie "Sum of all Fears" that illustrates this process. It was changed to show a fanatical right wing group doing the act although we know that it was intended to show an Islamic group who would actually carry this out. If this movie doesn't get your attention, the real thing certainly will. (Tom Clancy knows his stuff, BTW.)
...a fictional movie, a fictional book is not a good source. But I'll take your point that an elaborate plan can be set to execute an attack. However, 9/11 wasn't some elaborate plan that outwitted a heavily secured airliner. Our airlines were hardly gaurded, and the terrorists just exploited that weakness. I mean seriosuly, the way our security was, we were askin to get a plane hijacked. I'm hopin that our security also learned a lesson from this grave incident, and beefed up the protection, so such attacks are reduced to a minimum.

That is to say, if we can eliminate the immigration of Muslims to a trickle or none at all, we can devote our limited resources and manpower toward increasing security for our citizens.
that wouldn't stop terrorists from gettin into this country. Considering its hard enough stopping muslims from gettin into this country, how are u gonna stop extremists from all over the world. If you plan were put into action, the only way to make it "effective" would be to eliminate all immigration. The extremists have a motive, block one way in, and they'll find another way in. All you'll really be doing is keeping the innocent muslims, who only wnat to come here to better their lives, out.
 

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nkgupta80 said:
...a fictional movie, a fictional book is not a good source. But I'll take your point that an elaborate plan can be set to execute an attack. However, 9/11 wasn't some elaborate plan that outwitted a heavily secured airliner. Our airlines were hardly gaurded, and the terrorists just exploited that weakness. I mean seriosuly, the way our security was, we were askin to get a plane hijacked. I'm hopin that our security also learned a lesson from this grave incident, and beefed up the protection, so such attacks are reduced to a minimum.

that wouldn't stop terrorists from gettin into this country. Considering its hard enough stopping muslims from gettin into this country, how are u gonna stop extremists from all over the world. If you plan were put into action, the only way to make it "effective" would be to eliminate all immigration. The extremists have a motive, block one way in, and they'll find another way in. All you'll really be doing is keeping the innocent muslims, who only wnat to come here to better their lives, out.
Thank goodness that all we have to draw on is a fictional movie. However, we can apply the principles of WWII when appeasement and naivete led to the debacle where 55,000,000 people died. Had realism prevailed instead of fantacizing about the good intentions of Hitler WWII could have been prevented from beginning at all.

If we are not hard headed about this continuing threat we will pay the ultimate price when bin Laden and/or his ilk succeed as they have repeatedly said they would do.

I've already rebutted your assertion that we must stop all immigration to stop terrorism. We know for a certainty that tens of millions of Mexicans have come into this country either legally or illegally and not a single one has flown any airliners into office buildings. 9/11 was entirely an act by Muslim fanatics just as the Spanish and British bombings were done. All were Muslims. Every single one of them. Europe has believed they can effectively buy off the terrorists but like WWII, "Peace in our Time" won't work any better this time than it did then. Appeasement has never worked in the history of man. And it never will.
 

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nkgupta80 said:
19 people from the 40,000 coming every year did the terrorists attack in the US. Very very small percentage. The latter percentage of muslims are very well off in this country, good citizens, hardly in any other crime.
Agreed, so far.

We have millions of mexicans coming in, a lot of them live in poverty and consequently, a larger percent of mexicans are involved in criminal activity which includes murder, rape, theft etc.
Disagreed on the cause and effect. Crime causes poverty, not the other way around. During the Great Depression the poorest area of the country, San Francisco's Chinatown, also had the lowest crime rate. On the other hand, I know of no prosperous communities that also have a high crime rate.

point of the matter is, that if as you say political correctness is hurting our national security to that point, we should really try to fix that, rather than forgo other freedoms that made up this country.
PC is hurting the country. On the morning of 9/11, an airline was liable for a hefty discrimination fine if they pulled more than two Arab-looking people out of the line for a single flight for further questioning. That's the crap we have to get rid of. If you want to find the terrorists, you will find more by looking in the mosques than in daycare centers or nursing homes.

And from ur post, you seem to argue that if, as I said, CIA/FBI does profile and is doing their job, why did 9/11 happen. I am very surprised too. I mean seirously, 19 guys with little boxcutters take over a plane. I mean the feat itself is amazing, but our security couldn't even stop it. this isn't anything about political correctness. 19 guys being able to take over a few planes shows that our secuirty was ****, and thats the main problem.
PC is the problem. There were five hijackers on each of three planes, and four on the other -- more than security would be permitted to stop on mere suspicion.

Our reaction to this shouldnt be to stop muslims from coming into this country, but to beef up our security in whatever way possible. Maybe the argument should be about politicla correctness and how it has become imbalanced, instead of this argument aobut MUslims not being able to enter the US.
It already is, and that's the subject of the thread. Muslims have proven that they should be subject to EXTREME scrutiny before they are allowed to enter. If the good Muslims don't like it, they can join their voices to ours in protest against terrorism and thereby earn our respect (as the Rainbow Division of ethnic Japanese soldiers did in WWII).
 

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Diogenes said:
Agreed, so far.

Disagreed on the cause and effect. Crime causes poverty, not the other way around. During the Great Depression the poorest area of the country, San Francisco's Chinatown, also had the lowest crime rate. On the other hand, I know of no prosperous communities that also have a high crime rate.

PC is hurting the country. On the morning of 9/11, an airline was liable for a hefty discrimination fine if they pulled more than two Arab-looking people out of the line for a single flight for further questioning. That's the crap we have to get rid of. If you want to find the terrorists, you will find more by looking in the mosques than in daycare centers or nursing homes.

PC is the problem. There were five hijackers on each of three planes, and four on the other -- more than security would be permitted to stop on mere suspicion.

It already is, and that's the subject of the thread. Muslims have proven that they should be subject to EXTREME scrutiny before they are allowed to enter. If the good Muslims don't like it, they can join their voices to ours in protest against terrorism and thereby earn our respect (as the Rainbow Division of ethnic Japanese soldiers did in WWII)
.
Indeed and it took a long, long time for many Muslims to even admit that bin Laden did 9/11. Even after he owned up to it, there are still those in the Muslim community who refuse to acknowledge what he did. Not more than a few weeks ago, a prominent Islamic cleric in Britain claimed that many Muslims do not accept the fact that bin Laden did it.

Had it been a bunch of Christian fundamentalists who had done that awful deed, can anyone doubt that it would have been immediately and totally condemned by all of Christiandom?
 

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Missouri Mule said:
Full backgrounds are fine. But like Katrina, the process is only as good as the people charged with carrying out the duties of doing these background checks. If they are incompetent, lazy or just downright stupid, the background checks will not be done well enough to prevent the next 9/11.

Why subject ourselves to the risk? Suppose you were going to go across a desert and you knew that it would take five days and you packed just enough food and water to last you exactly five days. You might make it but if you made a wrong turn or couldn't complete it within the five days you would be in deep do-do. We are in a similar situation today. We have neither adequate or competent personnel to ensure that no terrorist doesn't slip through the process. It only takes one terrorist and one prepositioned nuclear bomb to destroy NYC and our way of life. Is the risk worth it? I think not. We're effectively playing Russian Roulette, are we not?

I think I got caught up being PC. **Shame on me :confused: ".

Until these kid killers and throat cutters cease to exsist. I think all inbound travel to this country should be restricted. This will go for anyone that is similar in the profile of the current extremist that are wishing to do us or our allies harm. When this movement and it's followers are all killed in one form or fashion. Then we can possibly consider opening up limited imigration. I still feel that propoer vetting and background checks should be enforced. I want to know your alias and your friends. Who you have hung out with and what your mosque is like. This is a process that should be detailed in it's scope. If this is to extensive to allow, then it isn't important enough for you to be here anyway
 

Gandhi>Bush

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Calm2Chaos said:
I think I got caught up being PC. **Shame on me :confused: ".

Until these kid killers and throat cutters cease to exsist. I think all inbound travel to this country should be restricted. This will go for anyone that is similar in the profile of the current extremist that are wishing to do us or our allies harm. When this movement and it's followers are all killed in one form or fashion. Then we can possibly consider opening up limited imigration. I still feel that propoer vetting and background checks should be enforced. I want to know your alias and your friends. Who you have hung out with and what your mosque is like. This is a process that should be detailed in it's scope. If this is to extensive to allow, then it isn't important enough for you to be here anyway
Our efforts should be focused on calming and changing the "kid killers and throat cutters" not having them "killed in one form or another." We should not be showing predjudice to every one who may resemble one of these murderous men, we should be showing them compassion and you can not do that by judging them before you know to them or without so much as speaking them. You can not be appauled at someone for something you expect them to do. You hold them to the same standard to which you hold everyone else. If we are to beat this, we must win the masses. If they think we are immoral, we must show them we are not. If they think we are hateful, we must show them we are not. If they think we are evil we must show them that we are not. We cannot win this battle by stomping on people or by being predjudice.
 

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Gandhi>Bush said:
Our efforts should be focused on calming and changing the "kid killers and throat cutters" not having them "killed in one form or another." We should not be showing predjudice to every one who may resemble one of these murderous men, we should be showing them compassion and you can not do that by judging them before you know to them or without so much as speaking them. You can not be appauled at someone for something you expect them to do. You hold them to the same standard to which you hold everyone else. If we are to beat this, we must win the masses. If they think we are immoral, we must show them we are not. If they think we are hateful, we must show them we are not. If they think we are evil we must show them that we are not. We cannot win this battle by stomping on people or by being predjudice.
Your solution is great.. Right up to the point the fly more planes into more buildings and more American citizens die. I can talk to someone till i m blue in the face. It does not mean I will know if there a terorrist. This is proven repeatedly with the interviews of neighbors or mass murders or just general public freaks. I am not going to appease these type of people. They want to "hunt" and Kill people. They are not worthy of breathing the air I do. I wan them dead. And I am not particularly worried about how it is done. They will as soon kill me or my family as look at me. I think that was proven when they started targeting there own children.

You run into the problem with persecuting the innocent because of the guilty. Sorry thats the way it goes. Your freedoms and feelings are not worth my families life or more ussuspecting american lives
 

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Why not have background checks on everyone trying to get in the US?
 

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Calm2Chaos said:
Your solution is great.. Right up to the point the fly more planes into more buildings and more American citizens die. I can talk to someone till i m blue in the face. It does not mean I will know if there a terorrist. This is proven repeatedly with the interviews of neighbors or mass murders or just general public freaks. I am not going to appease these type of people. They want to "hunt" and Kill people. They are not worthy of breathing the air I do. I wan them dead. And I am not particularly worried about how it is done. They will as soon kill me or my family as look at me. I think that was proven when they started targeting there own children.
What if by persecuting thses people we make more enemies and then more terrorists? Wouldn't that be counter-productive?
I'm all about killing terrorists but I'm also about making sure that there isn't another one just waiting to take the one I have killeds place.


Calm2Chaos said:
You run into the problem with persecuting the innocent because of the guilty. Sorry thats the way it goes. Your freedoms and feelings are not worth my families life or more ussuspecting american lives
I thought our freedoms were worth fighting and dying for? How far are you willing to go? Or how much are you willing to loose?
 

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Calm2Chaos said:
Your solution is great.. Right up to the point the fly more planes into more buildings and more American citizens die. I can talk to someone till i m blue in the face. It does not mean I will know if there a terorrist. This is proven repeatedly with the interviews of neighbors or mass murders or just general public freaks. I am not going to appease these type of people. They want to "hunt" and Kill people. They are not worthy of breathing the air I do. I wan them dead. And I am not particularly worried about how it is done. They will as soon kill me or my family as look at me. I think that was proven when they started targeting there own children.
I'm not asking you to appease these people. Where did I mention appeasement? Where did I suggest some form of appeasement? The ideology and psychology of terrorists is far different from that of homicidal psycopathic mass murders.

You run into the problem with persecuting the innocent because of the guilty. Sorry thats the way it goes. Your freedoms and feelings are not worth my families life or more ussuspecting american lives
Do you see what you're doing? If you are going to treat a good man like he is evil, what is the benefit of being good? If you treat all of these men like they are all evil, you are only going to encourage them to be evil.

So you are innocent and you matter, but they are innocent and they don't?

This is getting interesting, but I have to go to jazz band so I won't be in this for a while.
 

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Gandhi>Bush said:
Our efforts should be focused on calming and changing the "kid killers and throat cutters" not having them "killed in one form or another." We should not be showing predjudice to every one who may resemble one of these murderous men, we should be showing them compassion and you can not do that by judging them before you know to them or without so much as speaking them. You can not be appauled at someone for something you expect them to do. You hold them to the same standard to which you hold everyone else. If we are to beat this, we must win the masses. If they think we are immoral, we must show them we are not. If they think we are hateful, we must show them we are not. If they think we are evil we must show them that we are not. We cannot win this battle by stomping on people or by being predjudice.
That would be fine if we could reason with terrorists but the available evidence suggests otherwise.
 

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Well if you cant tell the difference between a terrorist Muslim and a Non-Terrorist Muslim then thats your problem. I cant tell the difference between I racist white person and a non racist white person so perhaps I should treat them all the same? Blacks are more likely to go to prison so do you (Missouri) also more inclined to "watch your back" when they are around also? Their is nothing wrong with Islam. The problem is with the "chicken littles" who run around wagging the dog to distract from their own attrocities
 

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Missouri Mule said:
That would be fine if we could reason with terrorists but the available evidence suggests otherwise.



Seemed able to reason with them just fine when you were in bed with them (Al Quedia) (Saddam) etc.....why is that?
 

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Moderate said:
What if by persecuting thses people we make more enemies and then more terrorists? Wouldn't that be counter-productive?
I'm all about killing terrorists but I'm also about making sure that there isn't another one just waiting to take the one I have killeds place.

If they decide to go with the terorrist option then they die. If you want to live and or die like this then do so. Your decisions to kill woman and children is up to you. If thats is what you want then you will hopefully suffer the reprecussions. There persecution is of no concern to me. I have to worry about my family and our civilians. There feelings are secondary at the moment. But since, according to you they have no problems with Christians or Jews then we should all be safe. Not sure what the glich was when they killed 3000 in a matter of minutes though


I thought our freedoms were worth fighting and dying for? How far are you willing to go? Or how much are you willing to loose?
They are worth dying for. Thats why we are killing them in that **** hole and not here in this country. I have a military that is designed for fighting for those freedoms. I don't think sacrificing american civilians in your PC cause is worth it. My family is worth more to me then there feelings, or your fantasy of this loving religion and it's inability to do harm.
 

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Your freedoms and feelings are not worth my families life


The song of the insurgency
 

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Gandhi>Bush said:
I'm not asking you to appease these people. Where did I mention appeasement? Where did I suggest some form of appeasement? The ideology and psychology of terrorists is far different from that of homicidal psycopathic mass murders.



Do you see what you're doing? If you are going to treat a good man like he is evil, what is the benefit of being good? If you treat all of these men like they are all evil, you are only going to encourage them to be evil.

So you are innocent and you matter, but they are innocent and they don't?

This is getting interesting, but I have to go to jazz band so I won't be in this for a while.
Good... Cause I am going to have to put a little more thought into this. I find that happens when I talk with you...LOL
 

Missouri Mule

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KWAM said:
Well if you cant tell the difference between a terrorist Muslim and a Non-Terrorist Muslim then thats your problem. I cant tell the difference between I racist white person and a non racist white person so perhaps I should treat them all the same? Blacks are more likely to go to prison so do you (Missouri) also more inclined to "watch your back" when they are around also? Their is nothing wrong with Islam. The problem is with the "chicken littles" who run around wagging the dog to distract from their own attrocities
It is ridiculous to even compare black people to Muslims. Are you a serious person who wants to debate or are you just trying to lower the level of debate to a farce?

We've seen tons of information about the "religion" of Islam that countances the murder of innocents; none of which has effectlvely been rebutted. It begins with Mohammad's own atrocities when he murdered over 700 men at Medina. You can apologize for Islam is you wish but I will tell it like it is.
 

Calm2Chaos

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KWAM said:
Well if you cant tell the difference between a terrorist Muslim and a Non-Terrorist Muslim then thats your problem. I cant tell the difference between I racist white person and a non racist white person so perhaps I should treat them all the same? Blacks are more likely to go to prison so do you (Missouri) also more inclined to "watch your back" when they are around also? Their is nothing wrong with Islam. The problem is with the "chicken littles" who run around wagging the dog to distract from their own attrocities
Won't be a problem if we wise up and restrict there entry into this country so they don't kill more civilians. You can't tell the difference either. It seems to me that you have just put a higher value on terorrist feelings then americans lives.

The problem is with the terrorist and there ability and desire to kill anything that they disagree with. And any colateral damage is acceptable. This includes woman children the elderly.
 
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