Should Muslims be permitted to immigrate to the United States

[Jenin]

MissouriMule,

Continuing a debate with you is futile because you cant seem to get past a narrow channel of thinking youve created for yourself suiting your personal (in my opinion racist views). Aside from the obviously blurred understanding of foreign politics and history, you seem to find it noteworthy mentioning that its allright for the US to conduct largescale massacres of innocents to save the lives of its soldiers in WW2. You seem to think BinLaden and his organization's agenda is 'world domination'. And Just like Binladen doesnt want any foreigner in muslim lands, you are fine with barring good people from a chance to immigrate to yournation because they share his ethnic background. Let me remind you that there was a time your ancestors immigrated here just like muslims today and probably faced the same kind of ignorant rejection you spew today. I wont bother arguing with you until you sort out the illconstrued opinions you carry about foreigners and the propaganda you carry about them relayed to you by people and media organizations with special interests. Do you watch Fox News by any chance?


------

Id like to comment about the PA discussion if I may...
The Palestinian Authority has weak security and legaslative institutions stemming from the fact that it is one of the world's youngest representative governments and functions under a demoralising and repressive occupation. Corruption was rampant and to some degrees still exists within the executive branch of the PA. That is a shame, and only helps prolong the Israeli excuse for illegal occupation. We must keep in mind however that this underfunded governing authority is dealing with daily issues surpassing domestic governing affairs and include campaining for the removal of the racist seperation wall cutting through palestinian land and dividing families and towns. The same ill intentions that brought about the creation of the berlin wall now create the 21st century version of it in palestinian land. The PA is a governing authority that deals with an occupation aimed at deligitimizing it and suffocating its people into collective ghettos to be subjected to a 'spirit breaking' acceptance of israeli military reality. Under these circumstances, corruption (never excused or accepted) naturally exists and hampers efforts by the palestinian and world communities to undo the wrongs committed against them over the past 60 years.

It is nobodies right to legitimize israeli occupation be delegitimizing the PA rule over the palestinian people. The PA is a democratically elected government and the greatest mistake we can make is to continue the enslavement of palestinian people because their representative government cant seem to provide for them what the israeli government provides to its people through the occupation of palestine.

thank you.

 

[Aryan Imperium]

Incredible.Would anyone have posted such a thread on the jews?

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Incredible.Would anyone have posted such a thread on the jews?

I don't believe that anyone said to KILL the muslims, that being said I don't believe we should keep all muslims out of this country forever, however, we do have the right to protect our borders against those who would seek to enter this country with the soul intententions of destroying it. Remember we our in a state of war and have been since 9-11 and I think allowing people into the U.S. from countries within the known spheres of terrorist influence would be analogous to allowing Japanese or Germans to immigrate here during WW2. It may not be a problem but why take the chance?

 

[Missouri Mule]

Incredible.Would anyone have posted such a thread on the jews?

If they were flying airliners into office buildings? Absolutely. I don't want any terrorists here whatsoever. Religion or race has nothing whatsoever to do with it. I don't make up the statistics that show about 99.99999997% of all terrorism in the world is committed by radical Muslims.

Until the Muslims as a group/"religion"/whatever clean up the bad actors in their part of the world, "innocent" Muslims will reap the "rewards" of bin Ladenism.

Just yesterday one of the "Imans" who was going to be a chaplain at the NYC Fire Department stepped aside when it was revealed that he didn't believe the world trade center could have come down solely from the airliners crashing into them. It was, in other words, a "conspiracy."

Muslim drops bid for NY Fire chaplain over remarks
30 Sep 2005 21:16:38 GMT
Source: Reuters
By Christine Kearney

NEW YORK, Sept 30 (Reuters) - An imam due to be sworn in as a New York Fire Department chaplain dropped his bid for the position on Friday after being quoted as saying he doubted al Qaeda hijackers were solely responsible for toppling the World Trade Center on Sept. 11, 2001.

Imam Intikab Habib, 30, told a New York newspaper in an interview published on Friday that a broader conspiracy may have led to the Sept. 11 destruction of the twin towers after two hijacked planes crashed into them, setting them ablaze and killing 2,749 people, including 343 firefighters.

Habib had been due to be sworn in on Friday when he was quoted in Newsday as saying he doubted the U.S. government's version of the towers' collapse.

"I've heard professionals say that nowhere ever in history did a steel building come down with fire alone," he told Newsday. "Was it 19 hijackers who pulled it down, or was it a conspiracy?"

Habib told a local TV station on Friday that stepping aside was "the right thing to do for the department. I was given the chance of resigning or not. I did not want to, but it was best for the department."

Fire Department chief Nicholas Scoppetta said in a statement that based on Habib's comments he "would have been unable to effectively serve in the role he was appointed to."...

(snip)

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N30205261.htm

Can you say "STUPID?" The gene pool is already going into the tank. Do we want to take it yet lower by admitting more Muslims who evidently believe the moon is made of green cheese or whatever their so-called "leaders" claim is the truth of the day?

And I see we have had more bombings today in Bali. Anyone wanna guess what religion those bombers have? I'll lay odds it was not the Jehovah Witnesses. Anyone want to bet me?

 

[Missouri Mule]

MissouriMule,

Continuing a debate with you is futile because you cant seem to get past a narrow channel of thinking youve created for yourself suiting your personal (in my opinion racist views). Aside from the obviously blurred understanding of foreign politics and history, you seem to find it noteworthy mentioning that its allright for the US to conduct largescale massacres of innocents to save the lives of its soldiers in WW2. You seem to think BinLaden and his organization's agenda is 'world domination'. And Just like Binladen doesnt want any foreigner in muslim lands, you are fine with barring good people from a chance to immigrate to yournation because they share his ethnic background. Let me remind you that there was a time your ancestors immigrated here just like muslims today and probably faced the same kind of ignorant rejection you spew today. I wont bother arguing with you until you sort out the illconstrued opinions you carry about foreigners and the propaganda you carry about them relayed to you by people and media organizations with special interests. Do you watch Fox News by any chance?


------

Id like to comment about the PA discussion if I may...
The Palestinian Authority has weak security and legaslative institutions stemming from the fact that it is one of the world's youngest representative governments and functions under a demoralising and repressive occupation. Corruption was rampant and to some degrees still exists within the executive branch of the PA. That is a shame, and only helps prolong the Israeli excuse for illegal occupation. We must keep in mind however that this underfunded governing authority is dealing with daily issues surpassing domestic governing affairs and include campaining for the removal of the racist seperation wall cutting through palestinian land and dividing families and towns. The same ill intentions that brought about the creation of the berlin wall now create the 21st century version of it in palestinian land. The PA is a governing authority that deals with an occupation aimed at deligitimizing it and suffocating its people into collective ghettos to be subjected to a 'spirit breaking' acceptance of israeli military reality. Under these circumstances, corruption (never excused or accepted) naturally exists and hampers efforts by the palestinian and world communities to undo the wrongs committed against them over the past 60 years.

It is nobodies right to legitimize israeli occupation be delegitimizing the PA rule over the palestinian people. The PA is a democratically elected government and the greatest mistake we can make is to continue the enslavement of palestinian people because their representative government cant seem to provide for them what the israeli government provides to its people through the occupation of palestine.

thank you.

Look, if it will make you happy, I would be perfectly willing to offer the Israelis a large piece of federal land out west to resettle. They can bundle up the "wailing wall" and a few gallons of the River Jordan and start up again out west where the antelope play and the buffalo roam. Lots of room, nobody living there. They would make the desert bloom.

The state of Israel came about because of the Nazi's murder of 6,000,000 Jews in Europe and millions of survivors were dislocated from their homes in Europe. After the war there came about a cry to find a home for these displaced people. At the time the Brits controlled that area. After a long and bitter campaign the British capitulated. An idea was concocted about a home for the Jews. The U.N. collaborated on the plan to form the state of Israel. This is just a thumbnail sketch but it's all in the history books. You can look it up.

Now we have this mess there and we are drawn into it. I'm fed up with the whole business of murder, mayhem and destruction. If even the Israelis pulled out lock stock and barrel, the Middle East would still be a cesspool of stupidity and ignorance. Always has been and probably always will be. There is something in the water there, evidently that cause people to believe that stupidity is somehow a virtue. In any event, after the Israelis would be gone, it would be something else. Even if we weren't anywhere close to the Middle East we would be blamed regardless. We're always blamed. We're rich and developed. Obviously we must have stolen from the poor and disposessed around the world. That's more or less the line the left has been peddling through the years. It is high time that the people in the Middle East stopped feeling sorry for themselves; stopped strapping explosives to their bodies and got up off their backsides, stood on their own two hind legs and started looking in the mirror. They have met the enemy and it is themselves.

 

[Jenin]

Missouri Mule,

Lemme tell you something buddy...

To some extent I repect that East Texas style and spirit you so vividly portray. I was raised in Texas, and its a place I still consider home.

I told myself I wasnt going to argue with you because I know you hold solid views attained over years of being exposed to half-truths and blurred versions of history.

I almost pity you, because I can approximately imagine the atmosphere you live in. I remember going to church (Im a proud muslim, but I enjoyed bonding with friends at the church and they always had good bbq )with some highschool friends in texas back in the day, and how they would mention the middle east as if it was a fairy tale out of the ghospel. The middle east is a cosmopolitan region where many of the world's most cultured and educated people live in relative harmony. From Alexandria and its hellenistic roots to Beirut and its beautiful beaches onward to amman and its homogeneous mix of palestinians, beduins, and sharkas (chechens and russian muslims).

The middle east does have a dark past and present...Economic misery (with the exception of Israel), Political restrictions and popular distrust of the goverment are evident. Many of these problems are brought about by modern US interference and support of surpressive regimes that will not confront the Israeli occupation. The Arabs and Muslims in the Middle east respect and look upto many ideals that america represents, but they also have a strong distrust of the current government and some before it for its one-sided support. The Israeli state you seem to not care too much about is funded and bailed out annualy by the US. Over 6 Billion USD of military and economic aid. American made f-16 fighter jets and apache hellicopters bombard palestinian camps and kill scores of civilians daily. Theyre manned by Israelis but provided and supported by US government. Paid for by your taxdollars.


The people of the middle east will not and most of them do not want to attack or destroy America. Even the most hanous and 'evil' of those militants that wage war against america state their war ends when the US government stops screwing the people over (by the means i mentioned above). That doesnt justify the terrorism committed by them, but neither is the state terror commited by america's Israel or the US military justifyable. Terror is terror. Murder is murder. You can murder people sitting behind a command system off the persian gulf, or behind a sniper net at an israeli outpost or strapped with explosives at an Iraqi or Palestinian refugee camp. Its all wrong. Hamurabi once said "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth and the instigator is the greater wrongdoer" . The arab people did not invade america, they did not support an illegal occupation of their lands. The people of the middle east have been suffering from imperial and colonial terrorism since the days of Britain and France and sykes picot. The arab people didnt murder 6 million jews. There are 6 million refugees now with no national identity and many thousands of innocent murder victims...These crimes were commited by the children of the greatest crime committed. Hamurabi's quote is not an edict, its sadly a fact of life. The arab people dont want Missouri Mule to give the jews free land somewhere in the great plains. They want missouri mule to open his eyes and read a book and understand where theyre comin from. They want to make peace with Israel and live life. They want the west bank and gaza and the right of return for the refugees and arab jerusalem and its holysites.


And for your information, the 'western pope' discovered the eath was round (in 1982 i think) 1300 years after arab scientists calculated with great precision the circumference of the earth. When paris consisted of a few mud houses, damascus had a lighting system and universities. Modern medecine, chemistry, math, astronomy, physics, and even language have solid roots and foundations stemming from the Middle East.


Please comprehend that Bush is a terrorist, and has terrorised millions of people just like binladen. One does it from a cave and with blunt expressions while the other does it behind a desk and in a suit with twisted words and through groups of special interest.


thank you.

 

[Tashah]

Author Note: The 'West Bank' is a generic term used to describe the land lost by Jordan in its war with Israel. In Israel, the two distinct areas of the West Bank are always referred to by their biblical names. Judea is the southern portion of the West Bank and is centered on Bethlehem and Hebron (City of the Patriarchs). Samaria is the northern portion of the West Bank stretching from Ramallah to Jenin.

Id like to comment about the PA discussion if I may...
The Palestinian Authority has weak security and legaslative institutions stemming from the fact that it is one of the world's youngest representative governments and functions under a demoralising and repressive occupation.

The Palestinian Authority has weak governmental institutions stemming from the decades-long corrupt regime of Yassar Arafat. Abu Abbas has now inherited this mess. Last week over 40 Kassam rockets fired from Gaza landed in Israel... after the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza. It's hard to conceive how this terrorism can be attributed to a 'repressive occupation' since no Israeli was left in Gaza too occupy it. This is one more example of how terrorism begets occupation and not the converse.

Corruption was rampant...

It still is rampant.

...and to some degrees still exists within the executive branch of the PA. That is a shame, and only helps prolong the Israeli excuse for illegal occupation. We must keep in mind however that this underfunded governing authority is dealing with daily issues surpassing domestic governing affairs and include campaining for the removal of the racist seperation wall cutting through palestinian land and dividing families and towns.

You conveniently forgot to mention that is was corrupt Palestinian firms that provided the cement for the barrier wall. You also forgot to mention the necessity of the barrier wall... to keep Palestinian suicide bombers out of Israel.

Aljezeera.net - Palestinian cement for Israeli barrier?

Under these circumstances, corruption (never excused or accepted) naturally exists and hampers efforts by the palestinian and world communities to undo the wrongs committed against them over the past 60 years.

Lol... undo the wrongs committed against them? Here you neglect to mention airline hijackings, piracy on the high seas, the murder of Olympic athletes, armed aggression in numerous wars, murder, assassination, and suicide bombings. Not exactly a pristine record is it?

It is nobodies right to legitimize israeli occupation be delegitimizing the PA rule over the palestinian people. The PA is a democratically elected government and the greatest mistake we can make is to continue the enslavement of palestinian people because their representative government cant seem to provide for them what the israeli government provides to its people through the occupation of palestine.

There was really nothing there when Israel was created by the United Nations in 1948. Believe me, the Palestinians have contributed absolutely nothing to the success of Israel. Israel does very nicely without them.

I will remind all that there are no Israelis currently in Gaza. Violence is already endemic. Democratically elected government? Might makes right? Many violent factions now vie for control of Gaza through the muzzle of a gun. Even Egypt has sealed the border with Gaza because of the neverending violence, corruption, and extremism.

You control Gaza now Jenin. No more feeble excuses. It will be interesting to see what happens there. Whatever transpires, you no longer have Israel to blame.

 

[Jenin]

Tashah,

Before I start, the Palestinian President's name is Abu Mazen, or Mahmoud Abbas...not Abu Abbas.


The west bank is a generic term created after the Israel was created and divided the Arab peoples of the Middle East. There was no 'west bank' before '48, there was PALESTINE.

Maam I consider you to be better educated and higher spirited than to erase history and repeat the racist zionist lie that the 'land was empty at Israel's creation'. The refugees in lebanon, Syria, Jordan and those who were able to leave the camps and immigrate to America and Europe would strongly contend that racist lie. Many of these people still keep keys to the houses they left, some of which are still evident in the modern landscape of the coastal cities of Jaffa, Akka, Haifa and other cities in Israel.
The term often used by the lesser educated and coniving liars that Historical Palestine was 'a land without a people for a people without a land' is false and you know it.


The PA still has corrupted elements, and President Yasser Arafat is to blame, just is Israel and other leaders in the PA.

Israel's economic monopoly over Markets in Gaza and West Bank provides hefty revenues annually. And even though Israeli troops and Illegal settlers have left gaza, its port, airspace and flow of goods are controlled by the Israelis. Basically Gaza has turned into a large concentration camp of Palestinians driven out of historical palestine at the creation of Israel, Palestinians driven out at Israel's '67 attack, and Palestinians Israel exiled for whatever security reasons. That doesnt sound like a land free of occupation and matter of fact it isnt.


I dont contend that there have been Palestinian organizations and officials that have collaborated with the occupation. That discredits those individuals associated with these crimes against humanity, but does not in any way credit the Israeli injustices of occupation and the racist seperation wall.

Thank you

 

[Diogenes]

You will never hear me say that action is not needed. I only request the right kind of action.

A peaceful protest? That makes you easy meat for a ruthless despot.

If his only concern is himself, then you make it beneficial for him to step down.

Not if he is obsessed with power.

Shame? Decency? You don't think that a terrorist has these qualities?

No.

Is this what the Arab sees? Or does the Arab only see the US vowing that sanctions will not be lifted so long as that man is in power?

If the Arab chooses to wear blinders, like the horses that used to deliver milk and groceries, then that is his choice and he must live the consequences.

Perhaps you could just type out Palestinian Authority?

In educated circles it is usually not necessary, but I will take note of your request.

What about one who refuses to kill?

Perhaps you could just type out "slave"?

3) As a practical matter in a political forum, word ambiguity leads to misunderstandings and the inevitable follow-up posts to clear up the latent semantical debris.

One would think that a certain level of clarity would be appreciated, but I also understand that the US education system cranks-out and promotes a far less taxing structure. No offense.

Very well said! Very well said indeed! :mrgreen:

I, for one, appreciate clarity in posts.

About half of the American degrees awarded in this critical area of higher education are now awarded to foreign students. I agree that the US education system is first-rate in potential. However, downward trends in the exact sciences and engineering fields suggest that this system is somewhat dysfunctional in many critical areas.

Agreed. It is the result of Political Correctness (spelled out for the benefit of those who would not recognize the acronym PC) which has plagued us for the last 30+ years.

The Palestinian Authority has weak security and legaslative institutions stemming from the fact that it is one of the world's youngest representative governments and functions under a demoralising and repressive occupation. Corruption was rampant and to some degrees still exists within the executive branch of the PA. That is a shame, and only helps prolong the Israeli excuse for illegal occupation.

Are you really convinced that the "occupation" is the cause of the corruption, and that removing the adult supervision will actually cause the PA to become honest?

The same ill intentions that brought about the creation of the berlin wall now create the 21st century version of it in palestinian land.

Poor analogy. The guns along the Berlin Wall pointed inwards, to keep the citizens from escaping. A better analogy would be that of the Great Wall of China, built to keep the barbarians out.

The PA is a democratically elected government...

In the only election ever allowed by Arafat, his only opponent was a harmless old retired female social worker because he assassinated all moderate voices. The Palestinians will need continued adult supervision until they can demonstrate, by controlling the terrorists operating from their territory, that they are ready to be a sovereign nation.

The middle east does have a dark past and present...Economic misery (with the exception of Israel), Political restrictions and popular distrust of the goverment are evident. Many of these problems are brought about by modern US interference and support of surpressive regimes that will not confront the Israeli occupation.

It would be more productive to place the blame where it really lies, Arab tradtional strongmen + the narcotic of socialism.

And for your information, the 'western pope' discovered the eath was round (in 1982 i think) 1300 years after arab scientists calculated with great precision the circumference of the earth. When paris consisted of a few mud houses, damascus had a lighting system and universities. Modern medecine, chemistry, math, astronomy, physics, and even language have solid roots and foundations stemming from the Middle East.

Actually, it was the Greeks in Ptolemaic Egypt who made the measurements several centuries before Mohammed. Agreed that the Middle East was once a cultural leader of the world (ca 800 AD; Omar Khayyam is one of my favorite philosophers) -- how do you explain its decline?

Lots of room, nobody living there.

Let's not go too far here and mistake increased productivity with abandoning the land. According to my local newspaper, eastern Montana in 1974 had 11,000 farms working 47.7 million acres of wheat; in 2002, 5,500 farms worked 47.9 million acres. If you want abandoned land that is not being used by anyone, the best place in the world is just where the Palestinians are.

If even the Israelis pulled out lock stock and barrel, the Middle East would still be a cesspool of stupidity and ignorance. Always has been and probably always will be. There is something in the water there, evidently that cause people to believe that stupidity is somehow a virtue.

Agreed, but it may be something more than just the water, which doesn't seem to affect the Israelis the same way.

 

[Tashah]

Rather than engage in a typical debunking of Jenin's rhetoric, I will just say a few simple things that are important to me.

Almost all of the argument here at Debate Politics between Israelis and Palestinians and their respective camps encompasses the past. I have thought a lot about this, and have come to the conclusion that debating the past solves nothing. None of us can change the past. It is what it is. Which brings us to the present.

Rather than conjur up the past and continue to engage in a blame game which is neverending and unsolvable, I would propose that Israelis and Palestinians concentrate on the present... with a mind towards the future.

I cannot change the past. Neither can Jenin. We can't step back and right the wrongs inflicted on each of us. But we can discuss the present with a fond hope of shaping the future. I hope you will join with me in this endeavor Jenin, as the current quid-pro-quo forces us to live as slaves to all of our yesterdays.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

A peaceful protest? That makes you easy meat for a ruthless despot.

If you think a picketing and marching are the only tools of nonviolence, then you know nothing of nonviolence.

No.

What makes you believe that a terrorist is incapable of shame and decency?

If the Arab chooses to wear blinders, like the horses that used to deliver milk and groceries, then that is his choice and he must live the consequences.

Don't be so obtuse. Think subjectively. Think as a common Arab would think.

Perhaps you could just type out "slave"?

If you believe that slavery is at the heart of nonviolence, then you know nothing of nonviolence.

 

[Diogenes]

If you think a picketing and marching are the only tools of nonviolence, then you know nothing of nonviolence.

What do you suggest?

What makes you believe that a terrorist is incapable of shame and decency?

What evidence do you have to the contrary?

Don't be so obtuse. Think subjectively. Think as a common Arab would think.

I prefer to think objectively. In my experience, it leads to more probable outcomes. Does the "common Arab" actually think, or just feel the need to find someone else to blame for his shortcomings? Do you have any evidence to support your conclusion?

If you believe that slavery is at the heart of nonviolence, then you know nothing of nonviolence.

Slavery is not the heart of nonviolence. Slavery is the result of submission to force (for those who survive).

 

[Missouri Mule]

Missouri Mule,

Lemme tell you something buddy...

To some extent I repect that East Texas style and spirit you so vividly portray. I was raised in Texas, and its a place I still consider home.

I told myself I wasnt going to argue with you because I know you hold solid views attained over years of being exposed to half-truths and blurred versions of history.

I almost pity you, because I can approximately imagine the atmosphere you live in. I remember going to church (Im a proud muslim, but I enjoyed bonding with friends at the church and they always had good bbq )with some highschool friends in texas back in the day, and how they would mention the middle east as if it was a fairy tale out of the ghospel. The middle east is a cosmopolitan region where many of the world's most cultured and educated people live in relative harmony. From Alexandria and its hellenistic roots to Beirut and its beautiful beaches onward to amman and its homogeneous mix of palestinians, beduins, and sharkas (chechens and russian muslims).

The middle east does have a dark past and present...Economic misery (with the exception of Israel), Political restrictions and popular distrust of the goverment are evident. Many of these problems are brought about by modern US interference and support of surpressive regimes that will not confront the Israeli occupation. The Arabs and Muslims in the Middle east respect and look upto many ideals that america represents, but they also have a strong distrust of the current government and some before it for its one-sided support. The Israeli state you seem to not care too much about is funded and bailed out annualy by the US. Over 6 Billion USD of military and economic aid. American made f-16 fighter jets and apache hellicopters bombard palestinian camps and kill scores of civilians daily. Theyre manned by Israelis but provided and supported by US government. Paid for by your taxdollars.


The people of the middle east will not and most of them do not want to attack or destroy America. Even the most hanous and 'evil' of those militants that wage war against america state their war ends when the US government stops screwing the people over (by the means i mentioned above). That doesnt justify the terrorism committed by them, but neither is the state terror commited by america's Israel or the US military justifyable. Terror is terror. Murder is murder. You can murder people sitting behind a command system off the persian gulf, or behind a sniper net at an israeli outpost or strapped with explosives at an Iraqi or Palestinian refugee camp. Its all wrong. Hamurabi once said "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth and the instigator is the greater wrongdoer" . The arab people did not invade america, they did not support an illegal occupation of their lands. The people of the middle east have been suffering from imperial and colonial terrorism since the days of Britain and France and sykes picot. The arab people didnt murder 6 million jews. There are 6 million refugees now with no national identity and many thousands of innocent murder victims...These crimes were commited by the children of the greatest crime committed. Hamurabi's quote is not an edict, its sadly a fact of life. The arab people dont want Missouri Mule to give the jews free land somewhere in the great plains. They want missouri mule to open his eyes and read a book and understand where theyre comin from. They want to make peace with Israel and live life. They want the west bank and gaza and the right of return for the refugees and arab jerusalem and its holysites.


And for your information, the 'western pope' discovered the eath was round (in 1982 i think) 1300 years after arab scientists calculated with great precision the circumference of the earth. When paris consisted of a few mud houses, damascus had a lighting system and universities. Modern medecine, chemistry, math, astronomy, physics, and even language have solid roots and foundations stemming from the Middle East.


Please comprehend that Bush is a terrorist, and has terrorised millions of people just like binladen. One does it from a cave and with blunt expressions while the other does it behind a desk and in a suit with twisted words and through groups of special interest.

thank you.

Read my earlier post. I don't give a damn about Israel. I offered a way out and yes there is land aplenty available in the west for them to resettle. But it is just an academic argument anyway because it isn't going to happen. But my point was this. Even if Israel didn't exist (and it exists only because of Hitler's shennanigans in WWII), the Middle East would still be a shithole that is ruled by despots and populated by people who readily believe lies such as the phony Koran story being flushed down a toilet. Why should I have the slightest interest in trying to understanding such people? Bottom line: I just don't care. I don't want their problems over here. And sooner or later we will figure out how to wean ourselves off Middle Eastern oil. That would mean there would no longer be any strategic interest in the region. Israel doesn't control the American people and we have the option of throwing out the politicians who don't understand that.

 

[OdgenTugbyGlub]

Even if Israel didn't exist (and it exists only because of Hitler's shennanigans in WWII), the Middle East would still be a shithole that is ruled by despots and populated by people who readily believe lies such as the phony Koran story being flushed down a toilet. Why should I have the slightest interest in trying to understanding such people? Bottom line: I just don't care. I don't want their problems over here.

Bottom line: having some of them immigrate doesn't automatically make our country turn into a "shithole". Besides that stuff about the Koran came from a respected news source, and it only got so much publicity because of inflamatory news stories put out by networks who adopt extreme views to get viewers. Just because things were blown out of proportion doesnt make an entire region stupid. Happens over here in the USA all the time.

 

[Missouri Mule]

Bottom line: having some of them immigrate doesn't automatically make our country turn into a "shithole". Besides that stuff about the Koran came from a respected news source, and it only got so much publicity because of inflamatory news stories put out by networks who adopt extreme views to get viewers. Just because things were blown out of proportion doesnt make an entire region stupid. Happens over here in the USA all the time.

I don't believe I said that Muslims coming to the US would make our country a shithole. What I said that regardless of whether we we were there or even if Israel didn't exist, their societies would still be dysfunctional. And they would place the blame elsewhere. That's what Muslims do. They cannot, they will not look to themselves. Read what Mohammad said. He was into the blame game even back when he founded his "religion." He commanded his followers to lop the heads off the "infidels" and he personally presided over the head lopping of some 700 men at Medina. Agree with me or off with your head. That's Islam.

What nobody wants to come to grips with it is the religion. It's still from the 7th century and always will be because it can't change and still be relevant to the true believers that have hijacked it and made it into the main focus of terrorism in the world today. That's the real bottom line and most everyone wants to sweep the problem under the rug and pretend it doesn't exist in the interest of political correctness. Political correctness will some day get a lot of Americans killed as it has already done with 9/11. Just today in Bali, 25 people were murdered by Islamic fanatics. Over 100 injured. This is the so-called "religion of peace." Yes, and I have some swamp land in Lousiana that I want to talk about too. And a bridge in Brooklyn for sale too.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

What do you suggest?

The target of nonviolence is something inside a man. Call it spirit, call it morality, call it psychology, whatever it is, when it has been applied it has never failed. If you can show me a case where it did not work, I will tell you the the mistake made.

What evidence do you have to the contrary?

I do not have to prove why something is in all humans, you have to prove why these are different.

I prefer to think objectively. In my experience, it leads to more probable outcomes. Does the "common Arab" actually think, or just feel the need to find someone else to blame for his shortcomings? Do you have any evidence to support your conclusion?

Does the common Arab think? What kind of a question is that? Have you ever spoke to a Muslim or a man from the Middle East?

Slavery is not the heart of nonviolence. Slavery is the result of submission to force (for those who survive).

Nonviolent NONCOOPERATION. Nonviolence has nothing to do with submission.

 

[Aryan Imperium]

I don't believe that anyone said to KILL the muslims, that being said I don't believe we should keep all muslims out of this country forever, however, we do have the right to protect our borders against those who would seek to enter this country with the soul intententions of destroying it. Remember we our in a state of war and have been since 9-11 and I think allowing people into the U.S. from countries within the known spheres of terrorist influence would be analogous to allowing Japanese or Germans to immigrate here during WW2. It may not be a problem but why take the chance?

Delberately twisting my words again and placing words in my mouth that I did not utter?
When have I talked of "killing"?
In case you don`t realise it but Islam is a religion and has millions of adherents just as xtianity does.Are you labelling all moslems "the same"? Not very pc of you is it?

 

[Aryan Imperium]

If they were flying airliners into office buildings? Absolutely. I don't want any terrorists here whatsoever. Religion or race has nothing whatsoever to do with it. I don't make up the statistics that show about 99.99999997% of all terrorism in the world is committed by radical Muslims.

Yet you are not "leaving religion or race" out of it. Being a moslem does not imply that one is a terrorist. What "statistics" are you referring to?
There would be a little less terrorism in the world if the USA stopped its imperialistic actions and the Israelis stopped persecting the indigenous population of Palestine.

Until the Muslims as a group/"religion"/whatever clean up the bad actors in their part of the world, "innocent" Muslims will reap the "rewards" of bin Ladenism.

So American and jewish terrorism is acceptable but any other kind isn`t?

Just yesterday one of the "Imans" who was going to be a chaplain at the NYC Fire Department stepped aside when it was revealed that he didn't believe the world trade center could have come down solely from the airliners crashing into them. It was, in other words, a "conspiracy."

Muslim drops bid for NY Fire chaplain over remarks
30 Sep 2005 21:16:38 GMT
Source: Reuters
By Christine Kearney

NEW YORK, Sept 30 (Reuters) - An imam due to be sworn in as a New York Fire Department chaplain dropped his bid for the position on Friday after being quoted as saying he doubted al Qaeda hijackers were solely responsible for toppling the World Trade Center on Sept. 11, 2001.

Imam Intikab Habib, 30, told a New York newspaper in an interview published on Friday that a broader conspiracy may have led to the Sept. 11 destruction of the twin towers after two hijacked planes crashed into them, setting them ablaze and killing 2,749 people, including 343 firefighters.

Habib had been due to be sworn in on Friday when he was quoted in Newsday as saying he doubted the U.S. government's version of the towers' collapse.

"I've heard professionals say that nowhere ever in history did a steel building come down with fire alone," he told Newsday. "Was it 19 hijackers who pulled it down, or was it a conspiracy?"

Habib told a local TV station on Friday that stepping aside was "the right thing to do for the department. I was given the chance of resigning or not. I did not want to, but it was best for the department."

Fire Department chief Nicholas Scoppetta said in a statement that based on Habib's comments he "would have been unable to effectively serve in the role he was appointed to."...

(snip)

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N30205261.htm


He was only saying what most of us are starting to believe.The truth about 11/9 has been deliberately hidden by the US government and there is more to the issue than "radical moslems flying planes into buildings".
Your government does not have a very good track record with the truth over the last 100 years,yet Americans fall for their lies all the time.

Can you say "STUPID?" The gene pool is already going into the tank. Do we want to take it yet lower by admitting more Muslims who evidently believe the moon is made of green cheese or whatever their so-called "leaders" claim is the truth of the day?

Why are you singling out moslems to be discriminated against? Surely the jews who control the White House are a bigger risk to your countries future by their manipulation of your government.Doesn`t ZOG mean anything to you?

 

[TimmyBoy]

My best and brightest programmers? Since I have dual Israeli/American citizenship, would you care to elaborate on exactly whom my best and brightest programmers would be?


Then we share a partial commonality... the University of Chicago and the Institute for Cosmology and Particle Physics are on my ledger.


ThankQ Timmy... in all sincerity.
Perhaps you are now due for an update:

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/


Agreed... if one is inclined to do that. That was not my overarching point. I would suggest that you peruse US Department of Education statistics regarding degrees awarded by American universities to US citizens in the exact sciences. You will discover that there is a distinct downwards trend in this regard.

About half of the American degrees awarded in this critical area of higher education are now awarded to foreign students. I agree that the US education system is first-rate in potential. However, downward trends in the exact sciences and engineering fields suggest that this system is somewhat dysfunctional in many critical areas.


No problemo. I also love a vibrant exchange of ideas!

However, you publically critiqued my style of writing (I would have done this in a private PM) and I responded... listing a trifecta of valid rationale. I can only wonder how well you yourself would fare in a political forum where only Hebrew or Arabic is used. Think about that scenario the next time you feel inclined to criticize another.

I would suggest that any further addendums to this exchange be taken to the Basement. teacher would just love the bourgeois entertainment

I didn't come from a bourgeois background. I have worked to a higher class level than the class level I was born into. Didn't have money growing up, so, I saw the military as an opportunity to travel and to pay my way through college. Never had to take out a loan like most people. That was because the taxpayers were gracious with their money towards veterans. Anybody who wants to have a better future, can make it happen in the United States. It's all you. Your "bourgeois" rehetoric made me wonder if you were a jewish immigrant from the Former Soviet Union or perhaps your colleagues in Israel or one of your professors. I do have capitalist convictions. I have been to former communist countries and saw how communism destroyed their economies. Everybody was poor and their was a lack of opportunity.

Your writing is very good, I just felt that it was so good, that it was as if you took alot of time and effort in appearing perfect in your grammer, as if you were trying to impress us. It made me wonder how much trouble you go through to be sure your grammer was so perfect. It's not so much that I can't write good grammar, it's just that for me to do it as well as you, I must first write a rough draft, rest a minute, then go through with a spell checker, then check over my grammar, then re-write my whole rought draft, with the modifications and corrections into a perfect final draft, which is too much trouble for posting on a web site and trying to have some fun.

Me, I can't write grammar perfect papers right off the top of my head the first time around without the need for corrections. I am a math and programming kind of guy.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Delberately twisting my words again and placing words in my mouth that I did not utter?
When have I talked of "killing"?
In case you don`t realise it but Islam is a religion and has millions of adherents just as xtianity does.Are you labelling all moslems "the same"? Not very pc of you is it?

Well I've never in my life attempted to be PC and for the record as Mancia says it's just their turn the Irish <--me got it, the Italians got it, the Crawts <---you got it, the Japs got it, it's not so much rascism but hazing I love most Muslims but it's just their turn once these people say f**k you I'm an American I'll listen till then I'll ask how's that camel rollin these days?

 

[Tashah]

I didn't come from a bourgeois background. Your "bourgeois" rehetoric made me wonder if you were a jewish immigrant from the Former Soviet Union or perhaps your colleagues in Israel or one of your professors.

The bourgeois comment was actually intended for teacher. Israel currently has over 500,000 immigrants from the former Soviet Union, and some of their more interesting words are sneaking into typical Israeli usage.

My ethnic heritage is Askenazi Jewish and Russian, but I claim no proficiency in the Russian language. I speak Hebrew, Arabic, English, and a smattering of Farsi (Persian).

Your writing is very good, I just felt that it was so good, that it was as if you took alot of time and effort in appearing perfect in your grammer, as if you were trying to impress us. It made me wonder how much trouble you go through to be sure your grammer was so perfect.

Actually, what you see when I write is exactly what I type off the top of my head. I make no overarching effort to impress anyone with grammatical structure or word selection. A simple Instant Message session with me would easily verify that. I have always subscribed to the literary analogy that a home consists not of the foundational brick and mortar, but the essence which dwells within.

Me, I can't write grammar perfect papers right off the top of my head the first time around without the need for corrections. I am a math and programming kind of guy.

We are all blessed in different ways, and I benefit from the gifts of composition, language, and mathematics. I could easily regress into Valley-Girl-Speak, but I would also consider that to be an intentional dumbing-down of the thoughts and ideas I wish to convey. I can only hope that you hold the essence of any post in a higher esteem than any mode of delivery.

All blessings to you and yours Timmy...
Tashah

 

[Missouri Mule]

If they were flying airliners into office buildings? Absolutely. I don't want any terrorists here whatsoever. Religion or race has nothing whatsoever to do with it. I don't make up the statistics that show about 99.99999997% of all terrorism in the world is committed by radical Muslims.

Yet you are not "leaving religion or race" out of it. Being a moslem does not imply that one is a terrorist. What "statistics" are you referring to?
There would be a little less terrorism in the world if the USA stopped its imperialistic actions and the Israelis stopped persecting the indigenous population of Palestine.

Until the Muslims as a group/"religion"/whatever clean up the bad actors in their part of the world, "innocent" Muslims will reap the "rewards" of bin Ladenism.

So American and jewish terrorism is acceptable but any other kind isn`t?

Just yesterday one of the "Imans" who was going to be a chaplain at the NYC Fire Department stepped aside when it was revealed that he didn't believe the world trade center could have come down solely from the airliners crashing into them. It was, in other words, a "conspiracy."

Muslim drops bid for NY Fire chaplain over remarks
30 Sep 2005 21:16:38 GMT
Source: Reuters
By Christine Kearney

NEW YORK, Sept 30 (Reuters) - An imam due to be sworn in as a New York Fire Department chaplain dropped his bid for the position on Friday after being quoted as saying he doubted al Qaeda hijackers were solely responsible for toppling the World Trade Center on Sept. 11, 2001.

Imam Intikab Habib, 30, told a New York newspaper in an interview published on Friday that a broader conspiracy may have led to the Sept. 11 destruction of the twin towers after two hijacked planes crashed into them, setting them ablaze and killing 2,749 people, including 343 firefighters.

Habib had been due to be sworn in on Friday when he was quoted in Newsday as saying he doubted the U.S. government's version of the towers' collapse.

"I've heard professionals say that nowhere ever in history did a steel building come down with fire alone," he told Newsday. "Was it 19 hijackers who pulled it down, or was it a conspiracy?"

Habib told a local TV station on Friday that stepping aside was "the right thing to do for the department. I was given the chance of resigning or not. I did not want to, but it was best for the department."

Fire Department chief Nicholas Scoppetta said in a statement that based on Habib's comments he "would have been unable to effectively serve in the role he was appointed to."...

(snip)

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N30205261.htm


He was only saying what most of us are starting to believe.The truth about 11/9 has been deliberately hidden by the US government and there is more to the issue than "radical moslems flying planes into buildings".
Your government does not have a very good track record with the truth over the last 100 years,yet Americans fall for their lies all the time.

Can you say "STUPID?" The gene pool is already going into the tank. Do we want to take it yet lower by admitting more Muslims who evidently believe the moon is made of green cheese or whatever their so-called "leaders" claim is the truth of the day?

Why are you singling out moslems to be discriminated against? Surely the jews who control the White House are a bigger risk to your countries future by their manipulation of your government.Doesn`t ZOG mean anything to you?

If you actually believed we bombed ourselves on 9/11 then it is completely futile to argue with you. It is an obscenity to believe that. It is beneath contempt. It is evil. It is completely in keeping with the ideology of Nazism. I'm not interested in arguing with the likes of you. I'd rather argue with a fence post.

Please don't respond to my posts. I am no longer interested in your views.

 

[Jenin]

Are you really convinced that the "occupation" is the cause of the corruption, and that removing the adult supervision will actually cause the PA to become honest?

Poor analogy. The guns along the Berlin Wall pointed inwards, to keep the citizens from escaping. A better analogy would be that of the Great Wall of China, built to keep the barbarians out.
In the only election ever allowed by Arafat, his only opponent was a harmless old retired female social worker because he assassinated all moderate voices. The Palestinians will need continued adult supervision until they can demonstrate, by controlling the terrorists operating from their territory, that they are ready to be a sovereign nation.
It would be more productive to place the blame where it really lies, Arab tradtional strongmen + the narcotic of socialism.

Actually, it was the Greeks in Ptolemaic Egypt who made the measurements several centuries before Mohammed. Agreed that the Middle East was once a cultural leader of the world (ca 800 AD; Omar Khayyam is one of my favorite philosophers) -- how do you explain its decline?

I dont like it when I have to spend my time correcting and tearing appart undereducated assumtions and blurred statements but I guess Ill do it just this time, dont expect me to pay heed to your blasphemous middle east BS after this time...

First of all buddy, you have no right stipulating what form of government the PA needs to be inorder for the palestinians to be given their rightful liberation. The Palestinians need not demonstrate anything to you or Bush or any government that they are 'fit' to be given what is rightfully theirs. The way you refer to the democratically elected representative government of the Palestinian people, as if it were a child is disgusting. The bigotry and racism you portray by claiming that the illegal occupation of Palestine is justifyable and that Palestinians dont yet deserve their liberation is unbelievable. No divine or human law or code of edict stipulates a wronged and occupied people show they are 'fit' to get back what is theirs in the first place.

Also, Mahmoud Abbas is now the democratically elected president, and whether you like him or not he is the legitamite chief executive of the palestinian people.

There have been several elections since the Palestinian Authority entered the Palestinian stage. Arafats presidency election, a vote of confidance and reassertion years later, parlimentary elections and administrative distric elections. And most recently, Mahmoud Abbas' election and coming soon, local administrative district elections. The Palestinian Authority is the most democratically legitamite arab government known in modern history, get your facts right homie.


And if youre going to accuse president arafat of assasinating all prospective presedential candidates in the first palestinian elections, provide me with documentation. Alot of people accuse this man of things he never did. I dont contend hes done alot of bad things, but half the BS yall keep on accusing him of is baseless, and from now on provide me with documentation before you go on blabbing with ignorance.


I dont live in Palestine, but I visit my country of origin biannually and the wall you defend has destroyed and divided entire villages and cities, farms and businesses. It was drawn on a paper map just like the borders of the middle east and africa were draw a century earlier by the Imperial British and French. The wall is penetratable at many pourous points and terrorists can easily slip past it and into Israel. The real function of the wall is the absorbtion of as much palestinian land into Israel as possible and the encompassing of the Illegal Israeli settlements in the west bank onto the 'israeli side' so that whenever a final solution negotiated, the borders are 'clear geographically. The Israeli government has for years now exercised a demographic rearrangement policy in Jerusalem and the west bank by demoloshing palestinian homes, and expanding settlements, and the racist wall is just another step towards that direction.

You tell me who the barbarians are. This is Apratied and segragation multiplied and suited for the 21st century. And trust me this is the correct analogy.

Ill suggest you read some documentation about the Wall aside from that you find on Israeli Government sites of American news media...youll be alarmed by what you discover.


Last thing, I never asserted Prophet Muhammad or his companions calculated the circumference of the earth, I asserted Muslim Scientists did some 1300 years before the 'western pope' recognized the earth was round. I didnt say they were the first, but I asserted it to make a point to my texas neighbor that the 'shizzhole' idea he has about the middle east is wrong.

Quit trying to instagate a rebuff with you ignorance. Wise up son, lets try to be productive.

Ps. Im a fan of Omar Khayyam as well. I love his poetry.

Thank you.

 

[Jenin]

Heres a few assorted links to documentations on issues I discussed in my previous posts...


news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3879057.stm

http://www.christianaid.org.uk/news/features/0402barrier.htm

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_ presidential_election,_2005

www.elections.ps/pdf/Fact_Sheet_ on_the_Palestinian_Elections_Law_Final.ppt

www.fmep.org/reports/

 

[Jenin]

Read my earlier post. I don't give a damn about Israel. I offered a way out and yes there is land aplenty available in the west for them to resettle. But it is just an academic argument anyway because it isn't going to happen. But my point was this. Even if Israel didn't exist (and it exists only because of Hitler's shennanigans in WWII), the Middle East would still be a shithole that is ruled by despots and populated by people who readily believe lies such as the phony Koran story being flushed down a toilet. Why should I have the slightest interest in trying to understanding such people? Bottom line: I just don't care. I don't want their problems over here. And sooner or later we will figure out how to wean ourselves off Middle Eastern oil. That would mean there would no longer be any strategic interest in the region. Israel doesn't control the American people and we have the option of throwing out the politicians who don't understand that.

Zionist aspirations for palestine date back to as early as the 18th century and productive action as early as the 19th century.

I strongly suggest you read this if you have the time sir, it could give you a better understanding of the background leading up to the creation of Israel.

http://www.mideastweb.org/zionism.htm