Should Muslims be permitted to immigrate to the United States

[Gandhi>Bush]

I'm certainly in favor of beating them -- the hell out of them. As far as trying to look to the "root causes" I care no more about their grievances than I do about why Hitler started WWII. He too, had grievances left over from WWI as I'm sure you know.

Thank God you weren't in power at the time of the Third Reich's fall. I wonder what would have happened if we failed to acknowledge the effects of the War Guilt and the reparations that put Germany into the state it was thrown into. When there is a communal suffereing, radical ideologies rise as a result of trying to change them.

"Beating the hell out of them" won't help. They need a revolution and we should aim to give that to them. We need to change the way we think so that they may change their's.

 

[teacher]

"Beating the hell out of them" won't help.

Of course it wont.

They need a revolution and we should aim to give that to them.

Dude, you so walked into it. We have, by giving their women the right to vote.

Long time big G since we went head to head. Thoughts?

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Of course it wont.

Dude, you so walked into it. We have, by giving their women the right to vote.

Long time big G since we went head to head. Thoughts?

I understand your motives, women's rights. It's a great angle and certainly a necessary one. I just don't think invading a country is the proper way to work that angle. A revolution is something that must come from the inside. We certainly have the power to help that along, and we most certainly should. But this violence is only lengthening the recruitment lines. It's only giving substance to the air of propagandist Priests.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

How do you propose we do this?
What Do you wish to save American lives from?
Terrorism?
Terrorism isn't unique to Islam. Americans can be terrorists.
You can't predict terrorism. It's an evil that knows no class nor group.
Muslims arn't all evil, but you can't really tell who is sincere, and who is out to kill. Terrorists both come in groups and individuals.

I'm sorry but thats patently untrue. As a whole terrorism in the last 10 years has been performed By muslims following in islam. they are extremist that are bastardizing the religion and using it as a reason to kill and cleanse the world of infidels. I am not going to compare the acts of a single man once or twice to the global destruction performed over the course of more then a decade

 

[Calm2Chaos]

That's my feeling. Do we live in fear of them? Let them dictate what we do, and how we act, because they can hurt us? They want to dominate us, to put us under their thumb. by living in terror of them, we allow them to have that power. Power through fear, the point of Terrorism.

Death through C4 in a target rich environment that we are going to let them have all but total access to. It's lunacy to have a problem and not do something about it. Will it stop another terrorist attack, I have no way of knowing that. But we can definitly make it more difficult for them

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Thank God you weren't in power at the time of the Third Reich's fall. I wonder what would have happened if we failed to acknowledge the effects of the War Guilt and the reparations that put Germany into the state it was thrown into. When there is a communal suffereing, radical ideologies rise as a result of trying to change them.

"Beating the hell out of them" won't help. They need a revolution and we should aim to give that to them. We need to change the way we think so that they may change their's.

Please explain how we do this. But explain how we do this while they're killing people all over the globe with there suicide bombings. How we change there thinking as there strapping on C4. Because they are not just going to stop this behavior because we play nice with them. They will take advantage of the situation to get there cells in place for further strikes

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Please explain how we do this. But explain how we do this while they're killing people all over the globe with there suicide bombings. How we change there thinking as there strapping on C4. Because they are not just going to stop this behavior because we play nice with them. They will take advantage of the situation to get there cells in place for further strikes

America is a superpower. We have the potential to do so much. As I mentioned, the state in which these people live leads to radical ideologies and the corruption of any and all morality.

We must attack their leadership. We must attack their leadership without attacking their people. How do you do that, you ask? How does a despot stay in power? He holds on as tightly as he can and crushes anyone within that may suggest change, correct? A despot needs money because with money comes power and with power comes control. So that's where you hit him. Any product that gets money to the government in question, you stop buying. Which brings us to oil. So you go to Europe and you get allies. This includes France, Germany, the whole nine yards. You don't make demands, you make allies. Islamic terror is a threat more countries than merely America, despots are bad, atrocities, the whole nine yards.

Once you have enough allies to "put the hurt on," as they say, you put the hurt on. You attack the Despots money, you attack his power, you attack his control. Let's not forget to be making public statements to the people under the boot of the despot. You demonize him to the whole world including the middle east.

Then you go to the man in power. You ask a series of questios.

We want what's good for your people. Do you want what we want?
Do you want to be remembered as just another evil bastard in your countries history, or do you want to be the man that brought freedom and prosperity to your people and country?

You don't make demands, you make allies.

You offer him an out. You offer him a legacy. Hell, offer him a severance package.

You and me both know that it's not as easy as two paragraphs and a few questions. We would have to work slow. Bargaining for different steps in the right direction. Allowing Peace Corps and other international organizations into his countries, changing laws, etc. This is all off the top of my head during my off period since my English teacher decided to take the day off, so I'm sure I'm missing a few ideas. I'll talk to you later.

 

[Jenin]

Hello Everyone,

This is my very first post on this website, and I hope to make an impact on this discussion with my fresh, intelligent and honest point of view.

First and Foremost, the Israeli Mossad is a very powerful intelligence service sustained through the billions of USD given to the Israeli state annually by the US government. The mossad's main objective is securing the sustained illegal occupation of Palestinian Land and Arab Land by the Israeli Military. The mossad operates globally and has been known to even spy on the US government in order to advance israel's security interests. Israeli Military supremacy and occupation of neighboring states and Palestinian Land is a security asset in the eyes of the Israeli Government. The mossad will continue functioning as the 'sixth sense' of occupation so long that this israeli agenda continues.

Muslims historically do not contribute to the majority of terrorist attacks. The Terrorist Oklahoma city Bombing was a creation of an 'All American' caucasian male and his organization. Arabs and Muslims have commited terrorist acts in recent history, especially against american interests. The American government and military have committed terrorism against Muslims and Arabs and continue to do so. The Civilian American population residing in muslim lands does not contribute to the terrorism commited by certain military or government people. They are peaceful and law abiding peoples that reside in muslim land and contribute beneficially to muslim society. The same point can be made regarding Muslims residing in the US, whether theyre immigrants or just temporary residents; they do no contribute to terrorism committed by certain muslim militants. The threat of terrorism will only increase if the government decides to contribute more effort and energy to a certain sect of american modern society because of its religeous or national bacground. Muslims constitute as much a threat to american interests as do Jews, Bhuddists, Hindus, or Methodists. I assure you that the US government and economy have not and will not only be terrorised by indivisuals or groups of muslim backgrounds. Terrorism has existed and will continue to exist for all time, and committed by victims. American militant occupation is terrorism in the eyes of 3/4 of the world as are al-qaeda's explosive attacks also terrorism to 3/4 of the world. That means half the world understands the real meaning of terrorism and is educated and ready to combat it effectively, while another half still suffers from igrnorance and continues to ignorantly inflame and incite the terrorist torch even more.

I sincerely suggest to all my friends here to read history books about the creation of Israel and the foundations of its terrorist beginnings and the role the Mossad plays in inciting anti-semitism (towards arabs) by stereo typing arab males as terrorists. Lets not get too caught up in mixing Islam and terrorism as if the two words seem to somehow exist in parallel in some wicked fourth dimension -- because then we would have created the ignorant black hole that will swallow us all into the flames of a class of civilizations waiting to happen.

Lets all take a huge breath, and think hard and deep about the politicians or governments smiling so blatantly in our faces. We cant be that naieve and ignorant can we? Please understand for yourselves, and read my friends. READ.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

America is a superpower. We have the potential to do so much. As I mentioned, the state in which these people live leads to radical ideologies and the corruption of any and all morality.

We must attack their leadership. We must attack their leadership without attacking their people. How do you do that, you ask? How does a despot stay in power? He holds on as tightly as he can and crushes anyone within that may suggest change, correct? A despot needs money because with money comes power and with power comes control. So that's where you hit him. Any product that gets money to the government in question, you stop buying. Which brings us to oil. So you go to Europe and you get allies. This includes France, Germany, the whole nine yards. You don't make demands, you make allies. Islamic terror is a threat more countries than merely America, despots are bad, atrocities, the whole nine yards.

Once you have enough allies to "put the hurt on," as they say, you put the hurt on. You attack the Despots money, you attack his power, you attack his control. Let's not forget to be making public statements to the people under the boot of the despot. You demonize him to the whole world including the middle east.

Then you go to the man in power. You ask a series of questios.

We want what's good for your people. Do you want what we want?
Do you want to be remembered as just another evil bastard in your countries history, or do you want to be the man that brought freedom and prosperity to your people and country?

You don't make demands, you make allies.

You offer him an out. You offer him a legacy. Hell, offer him a severance package.

You and me both know that it's not as easy as two paragraphs and a few questions. We would have to work slow. Bargaining for different steps in the right direction. Allowing Peace Corps and other international organizations into his countries, changing laws, etc. This is all off the top of my head during my off period since my English teacher decided to take the day off, so I'm sure I'm missing a few ideas. I'll talk to you later.

I'll give ya this. I may not agree with everything you say. But I sure do love your passion for it.

Your asking for countries to go through this process while they are being hunted by these people. Keep in mind the situation that they are in is one of there own making. The ME has always been a hole. A hole filled with oppression, hunger, strife, murder and hate.

I think you are going to need the people to turn these countries around. Your going to need the people to turn this religion around. They are allowing the worst to bastardize it in there name. The world I think will feel more sympathetic to there cause if they see the people themselves denounce these butchers.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Hello Everyone,

This is my very first post on this website, and I hope to make an impact on this discussion with my fresh, intelligent and honest point of view.

First and Foremost, the Israeli Mossad is a very powerful intelligence service sustained through the billions of USD given to the Israeli state annually by the US government. The mossad's main objective is securing the sustained illegal occupation of Palestinian Land and Arab Land by the Israeli Military. The mossad operates globally and has been known to even spy on the US government in order to advance israel's security interests. Israeli Military supremacy and occupation of neighboring states and Palestinian Land is a security asset in the eyes of the Israeli Government. The mossad will continue functioning as the 'sixth sense' of occupation so long that this israeli agenda continues.

Muslims historically do not contribute to the majority of terrorist attacks. The Terrorist Oklahoma city Bombing was a creation of an 'All American' caucasian male and his organization. Arabs and Muslims have commited terrorist acts in recent history, especially against american interests. The American government and military have committed terrorism against Muslims and Arabs and continue to do so. The Civilian American population residing in muslim lands does not contribute to the terrorism commited by certain military or government people. They are peaceful and law abiding peoples that reside in muslim land and contribute beneficially to muslim society. The same point can be made regarding Muslims residing in the US, whether theyre immigrants or just temporary residents; they do no contribute to terrorism committed by certain muslim militants. The threat of terrorism will only increase if the government decides to contribute more effort and energy to a certain sect of american modern society because of its religeous or national bacground. Muslims constitute as much a threat to american interests as do Jews, Bhuddists, Hindus, or Methodists. I assure you that the US government and economy have not and will not only be terrorised by indivisuals or groups of muslim backgrounds. Terrorism has existed and will continue to exist for all time, and committed by victims. American militant occupation is terrorism in the eyes of 3/4 of the world as are al-qaeda's explosive attacks also terrorism to 3/4 of the world. That means half the world understands the real meaning of terrorism and is educated and ready to combat it effectively, while another half still suffers from igrnorance and continues to ignorantly inflame and incite the terrorist torch even more.

I sincerely suggest to all my friends here to read history books about the creation of Israel and the foundations of its terrorist beginnings and the role the Mossad plays in inciting anti-semitism (towards arabs) by stereo typing arab males as terrorists. Lets not get too caught up in mixing Islam and terrorism as if the two words seem to somehow exist in parallel in some wicked fourth dimension -- because then we would have created the ignorant black hole that will swallow us all into the flames of a class of civilizations waiting to happen.

Lets all take a huge breath, and think hard and deep about the politicians or governments smiling so blatantly in our faces. We cant be that naieve and ignorant can we? Please understand for yourselves, and read my friends. READ.

So your going to compare 1 incident to 1000's of incidents. Embassies, USS Cole, America the UK, Spain, India, Bangledesh, Afganastan ect ect ect... These and more are all terrorist attacks handled by muslim extremist. I don't think anyone is saying that all muslims are terrorist. But they are responsible for the majority of the terrorist acts in the last 50 years

 

[Deegan]

Hello Everyone,

This is my very first post on this website, and I hope to make an impact on this discussion with my fresh, intelligent and honest point of view.

First and Foremost, the Israeli Mossad is a very powerful intelligence service sustained through the billions of USD given to the Israeli state annually by the US government. The mossad's main objective is securing the sustained illegal occupation of Palestinian Land and Arab Land by the Israeli Military. The mossad operates globally and has been known to even spy on the US government in order to advance israel's security interests. Israeli Military supremacy and occupation of neighboring states and Palestinian Land is a security asset in the eyes of the Israeli Government. The mossad will continue functioning as the 'sixth sense' of occupation so long that this israeli agenda continues.

Muslims historically do not contribute to the majority of terrorist attacks. The Terrorist Oklahoma city Bombing was a creation of an 'All American' caucasian male and his organization. Arabs and Muslims have commited terrorist acts in recent history, especially against american interests. The American government and military have committed terrorism against Muslims and Arabs and continue to do so. The Civilian American population residing in muslim lands does not contribute to the terrorism commited by certain military or government people. They are peaceful and law abiding peoples that reside in muslim land and contribute beneficially to muslim society. The same point can be made regarding Muslims residing in the US, whether theyre immigrants or just temporary residents; they do no contribute to terrorism committed by certain muslim militants. The threat of terrorism will only increase if the government decides to contribute more effort and energy to a certain sect of american modern society because of its religeous or national bacground. Muslims constitute as much a threat to american interests as do Jews, Bhuddists, Hindus, or Methodists. I assure you that the US government and economy have not and will not only be terrorised by indivisuals or groups of muslim backgrounds. Terrorism has existed and will continue to exist for all time, and committed by victims. American militant occupation is terrorism in the eyes of 3/4 of the world as are al-qaeda's explosive attacks also terrorism to 3/4 of the world. That means half the world understands the real meaning of terrorism and is educated and ready to combat it effectively, while another half still suffers from igrnorance and continues to ignorantly inflame and incite the terrorist torch even more.

I sincerely suggest to all my friends here to read history books about the creation of Israel and the foundations of its terrorist beginnings and the role the Mossad plays in inciting anti-semitism (towards arabs) by stereo typing arab males as terrorists. Lets not get too caught up in mixing Islam and terrorism as if the two words seem to somehow exist in parallel in some wicked fourth dimension -- because then we would have created the ignorant black hole that will swallow us all into the flames of a class of civilizations waiting to happen.

Lets all take a huge breath, and think hard and deep about the politicians or governments smiling so blatantly in our faces. We cant be that naieve and ignorant can we? Please understand for yourselves, and read my friends. READ.

That's all well and good, but we have been ignoring this problem for decades, until it finally got so bad, that 3,000 people were killed in a matter of minutes. Where were these countries that you speak of, the ones who want to combat terrorism? I'll tell you, they were not concerned about the problem, actually, they seemed to relish in the thought of America being brought to her knees.

 

[nkgupta80]

Your asking for countries to go through this process while they are being hunted by these people. Keep in mind the situation that they are in is one of there own making. The ME has always been a hole. A hole filled with oppression, hunger, strife, murder and hate.

not relaly, only after Britain began messing around in the Mid East and creating colonies did the Mid East become the violent shithole. With Britain followed the rest of Europe and the US. It isn't solely their problem. So I don't know how its always been a hole as you described it.

Your asking for countries to go through this process while they are being hunted by these people

we're being hunted regardless. Terrorists are gonna attack us no matter what. But Ghandi>Bush's approach seems to be better, in that it makes us look like the good, morally correct, cultured people while the Terrorists just lose more in their cause. Don't you think they love it when the US attacks some place in the Mid-east. Its just more fodder they can feed to impressionable young minds.

Attacking the corrupt leadership where it hurts the most -- the economy -- is the ultimate solution to the terrorist problem. The by making the leadership weak, we give the people a feeling of power over their own country, and they'd stop hating us. Let them channel their anger towards their own government not the US.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Your asking for countries to go through this process while they are being hunted by these people. Keep in mind the situation that they are in is one of there own making. The ME has always been a hole. A hole filled with oppression, hunger, strife, murder and hate.

Then you change that. They have oppression? Then give them freedom. They are hungry? Then give them food. They have hate? Guess what you give?

 

[Calm2Chaos]

not relaly, only after Britain began messing around in the Mid East and creating colonies did the Mid East become the violent shithole. With Britain followed the rest of Europe and the US. It isn't solely their problem. So I don't know how its always been a hole as you described it.

we're being hunted regardless. Terrorists are gonna attack us no matter what. But Ghandi>Bush's approach seems to be better, in that it makes us look like the good, morally correct, cultured people while the Terrorists just lose more in their cause. Don't you think they love it when the US attacks some place in the Mid-east. Its just more fodder they can feed to impressionable young minds.

And while we're smiling and playing nice there detonanting homemade bombs in our streets. Do you actually expect countries to help someone when you actively killing there citizens? What are the terrorist going to lose. Who is going to start looking down on them. If they don't look down on them for killing a large group of children, then us being nice isn't going to change there mind. Why don't those same impressionable young minds see the death and murder these people are inflicting on there neighbors and denounce them.

Attacking the corrupt leadership where it hurts the most -- the economy -- is the ultimate solution to the terrorist problem. The by making the leadership weak, we give the people a feeling of power over their own country, and they'd stop hating us. Let them channel their anger towards their own government not the US.

Again, if they can't find enough to hate with people targeting the mother sisters and brothers. Then I don't see how a smiling face is going to suddenly turn them against these terrorist. I am not understand how this is done. We get together and all stop buying oil. So they don't have the money and people get pissed? Well thats fine but If i have that alternative I never need oil and you end up with starving people that are pissed off and reaching for C4

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Then you change that. They have oppression? Then give them freedom. They are hungry? Then give them food. They have hate? Guess what you give?

giving them freedom isn't as easy as that. we are finding that out now. Agin the question I come back to is simple. while there hunting or killing civilians in other countries. What are those other countries driving force to give to people killing them? I think I understand what your saying. And in theroy I think it may be a good idea. But thats strictly theroy. The real world says that if i am giving you something and you attack i first stop giving, and second attack back.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

giving them freedom isn't as easy as that. we are finding that out now. Agin the question I come back to is simple. while there hunting or killing civilians in other countries. What are those other countries driving force to give to people killing them? I think I understand what your saying. And in theroy I think it may be a good idea. But thats strictly theroy.

These countries aren't giving to terrorists. They're giving to Muslims. Use law to contain the terrorists.

The real world says that if i am giving you something and you attack i first stop giving, and second attack back.

The real world is a **** hole.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

These countries aren't giving to terrorists. They're giving to Muslims. Use law to contain the terrorists.

How do you know who you are giving to. How do you know who the terorrist is and who the terorrist isn't hell we still don'tknow

The real world is a **** hole.

This very well may be true

 

[nkgupta80]

Again, if they can't find enough to hate with people targeting the mother sisters and brothers. Then I don't see how a smiling face is going to suddenly turn them against these terrorist. I am not understand how this is done. We get together and all stop buying oil. So they don't have the money and people get pissed? Well thats fine but If i have that alternative I never need oil and you end up with starving people that are pissed off and reaching for C4

its not give them a smiling face. Its to stop supporting the governments completely. When there is nothing that the terrorist leaders can feed off, how are they gonna recruit more people? We still support big terrorist governments. Is our war against terror really anything amount ot anything. Until we show full might against terror and its supporters, terrorists can feed of the hypocrisy and then tell the people that this war on terror is really a coverup for infidels invading our homelands.

So stop support to ALL leaders. Move out of that area. Ally with the world, then systematically weaken the oppressive governments. If the majority of the people in the Mid-East really want freedom, then they will take the chance to seize it.

 

[Diogenes]

Well, criminals from all over the world come here to commit crimes. If a person comes from India, a country that has more problems with Muslims than any other. Should they be subject to the same persecution?

What about a Africans coming here? He's black but could easily be Muslim.

What about white muslims from the Balkans?

That's why I said "Muslims" instead of "Middle Easterners." To date, we haven't had a serious problem of terrorism from fanatical animists, Hindus, Buddhists, or the various Eastern Orthodox groups. If there is a more precise criterion for profiling, I'd be glad to listen to it.

That my friend is exactly what the Arabs say when they preach about their hatred and mistrust for America......are they right? What is stupid is to judge the majority by the actions of the tinest minority

The Arabs do not face physical extinction like they wish to visit upon us. They do face extinction of their dismal culture of honor killings, stoning of rape victims, repression of non-believers and females, etc., but only because they fear their own people might no longer choose to live in the 7th century.

The culture of the Ummah was once among the greatest in the world, but the Middle East became irrelevant after the Europeans discovered deep-water navigation (ca. 1500), the culture decayed, and the entire area became an impoverished backwater. That condition held until 70 years ago when oil was discovered, with the result that the sheiks now have more money than they know what to do with, and their subjects continue to live in grinding poverty with nothing to be proud of except the imagined glories of a thousand years ago.

You're probably aware of the Old Man Of The Mountain and his assassins, and his political success in terrorizing Middle Eastern rulers. That seems to me to be the model followed by the modern terrorists, and you may remember the end of the original story when the Mongols finally stormed the last mountain fortress and left no survivors. A similar end awaits today's terrorists.

We may be able to beat them with proper reasoning and logic rather than stomping on their civil rights and/or countries, ...

Specifically, what positive steps do you suggest?

Don't be foolish. If there is such a tiger in this situation, it would the United States.

The "tiger" in the analogy is the interloper that invades the village and kills those who have offered no offense. It is foolish to ignore the threat and make excuses, it is wise to go kill the tiger. And that's what we're doing.

Many of the reasons they justify their actions are not simply "fantasies." That's a little naive to think that these men are motivated simply by a text that had been twisted into evil.

That's the (fantasy) reason they give. The text has indeed been twisted; there is only one virgin waiting for the jihadis, and she is 72.

What about the millions that died as a result of sanctions? What about the some 8 million displaced people in Afghanistan that mostly went to Pakistan or died of exposure on the way there? What about the conditions in Gaza and the West Bank? What about the conditions in the entire Middle east, for that matter?

The deaths from sanctions on Iraq were due primarily to Saddam diverting the funds, secondarily to the UN for allowing the corruption that permitted Saddam to build ten new palaces while his people died. The displaced persons from Afghanistan left because the Taliban were intolerable, and returned home after the Taliban were overthrown. In Gaza and the West Bank, the people have suffered greatly under the corrupt and criminally incompetent PA, which again was permitted (and even encouraged) by the UN.

The problem with Ghandi-style thinking and tactics is that they only work in a civilized and tolerant society. If you attempt it with an autocratic ruler like Stalin, Mao or Hitler, the result is a quick and quiet execution. If you try it with a Saddam, Arafat, or Mullah Omar, the result is a quick and public execution. The Palestinians need a Ghandi to deal with Israel as it is, or the Israelis need an Arafat to deal with the Palestinians as they are.

Muslims historically do not contribute to the majority of terrorist attacks.

How far back in history are you going?

Lets not get too caught up in mixing Islam and terrorism...

Tell that to the extremists who are defiling their own religion.

not relaly, only after Britain began messing around in the Mid East and creating colonies did the Mid East become the violent shithole.

Disagreed. It has always been that way. For a few centuries during the Caliphates it was at least as good as the rest of the world, but the rest of the world has grown and matured while the Middle East has remained mired in the seventh century, and is now the cultural cesspool of the world.

Attacking the corrupt leadership where it hurts the most -- the economy -- is the ultimate solution to the terrorist problem. The by making the leadership weak, we give the people a feeling of power over their own country, and they'd stop hating us. Let them channel their anger towards their own government not the US.

Agreed completely that the real problem is the leadership. Better than attacking the economy though (remembering who got the blame for the sanctions on Iraq) would be to help create one or more states in the neighborhood which are liberal enough to prosper -- which, coincidentally, is just what we're doing in Iraq.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

How do you know who you are giving to. How do you know who the terorrist is and who the terorrist isn't hell we still don'tknow

When you give food to a population a population of Muslims, very few of them will turn out to be terrorists.

Give me a number. How many Muslims do you think are terrorists? We've played this game before. Go ahead and give me a number.

This very well may be true

I was being sarcastic. The world is what ever it's inhabitants choose for it to be. Don't give me that "it doesn't work in the real world" crap. It works. Nonviolence has worked every time it's been used. Don't believe me? Name a time when it has failed.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Specifically, what positive steps do you suggest?

A commitment to improve the standard of living in the Middle East. That would entail giving them freedom when they have oppression, but doing so in a way that cannot be twisted into propaganda as easily as war can be.

I'd go more in depth, but I'd rather not repeat myself. Go back a page, I had a very long response directed toward Calm2Chaos.

The "tiger" in the analogy is the interloper that invades the village and kills those who have offered no offense. It is foolish to ignore the threat and make excuses, it is wise to go kill the tiger. And that's what we're doing.

Many people would accuse the US of being the interloper and killing those who have offered no offense. Many would offer that it wise to go kill the tiger. Are they correct as well? No. It's a terrible system of logic to compare a human being, American or otherwise, to an animal to begin with.

The deaths from sanctions on Iraq were due primarily to Saddam diverting the funds, secondarily to the UN for allowing the corruption that permitted Saddam to build ten new palaces while his people died.

Who enacted the sanctions? Who stopped the flow of food to Iraqi children? Sanctions are an attack on the people. An attack on people is counterproductive. Whether or not Saddam fought the sanctions or not, he did not cut off food to his people. We did.

The displaced persons from Afghanistan left because the Taliban were intolerable, and returned home after the Taliban were overthrown.

The UN quotes 8-9 MILLION people in Afghanistan that were dependent on International aid workers before the US invasion. Many starved, some died on the way to Pakistan. That's right. Most are in Pakistan now with all of the other American lovers...(that was sarcasm, you caught that right?)

In Gaza and the West Bank, the people have suffered greatly under the corrupt and criminally incompetent PA, which again was permitted (and even encouraged) by the UN.

PA?

The problem with Ghandi-style thinking and tactics is that they only work in a civilized and tolerant society. If you attempt it with an autocratic ruler like Stalin, Mao or Hitler, the result is a quick and quiet execution. If you try it with a Saddam, Arafat, or Mullah Omar, the result is a quick and public execution. The Palestinians need a Ghandi to deal with Israel as it is, or the Israelis need an Arafat to deal with the Palestinians as they are.

Tell me once where "Gandhi-style thinking and tactics" has been applied against such people?

If they can't organize a nonviolent movement from within, we can ferment one from the outside. That is what I have suggested.

 

[nkgupta80]

Disagreed. It has always been that way. For a few centuries during the Caliphates it was at least as good as the rest of the world, but the rest of the world has grown and matured while the Middle East has remained mired in the seventh century, and is now the cultural cesspool of the world.

you got ur history mixed up. Ummayad and then the Abbasid Empire marked the Golden Age of Islam (a lot more than a few centuries). They were probably the most advanced in the world at the time, rivaled only by China. Without the Muslims, most of Europe's classical Greek/Latin literature would have been lost forever. It was only around the 1500s that the Muslims relaly began their decline (around the same time Europe began its ascent). But poverty and hunger/ and oppression didn't kick in until imperialism took hold of Asia, and the Ottoman Empire fell into immense corruption.

Since Britain was possibly the first global superpower, it had great interest in the Middle East. Thus, it was the first to exploit the region. As leaders in the mid-east countries became puppets of the British or other European empires, the regions fell into neglect, and wasn't able to play catchup.

Terrorism in the mid-esat didn't even show up until the early 1900s.

 

[Diogenes]

A commitment to improve the standard of living in the Middle East. That would entail giving them freedom when they have oppression, but doing so in a way that cannot be twisted into propaganda as easily as war can be.

And how would YOU have proposed giving Iraqi citizens more freedom without annoying Saddam to the point where he would fight? Specific suggestions, please, not general platitudes. What specific arguments would you use to convince Assad and his supporters that he should become a nice person and remove himself from power in Syria?

I'd go more in depth, but I'd rather not repeat myself. Go back a page, I had a very long response directed toward Calm2Chaos.

I've read all your posts, and they all seem to be based on the assumption that deep in the heart of every despot, there is a kind and gentle human being trying to get out. There is no evidence to support that assumption; the world can be a very harsh place.

Many people would accuse the US of being the interloper and killing those who have offered no offense. Many would offer that it wise to go kill the tiger. Are they correct as well? No. It's a terrible system of logic to compare a human being, American or otherwise, to an animal to begin with.

You are confusing the dispensing of justice with the initial offense. Moreover, it is foolish to assume that an animal like a terrorist is actually a human being - see previous paragraph.

Who enacted the sanctions?

The UN.

Who stopped the flow of food to Iraqi children?

Saddam.

Sanctions are an attack on the people. An attack on people is counterproductive.

Agreed. The only place sanctions can point to any success at all is in South Africa, which was at least a civilized country. Back then, anyway.

Whether or not Saddam fought the sanctions or not, he did not cut off food to his people. We did.

Dead wrong. Saddam was left to make altogether too many decisions on his own - what to buy, who to buy from, who to sell to - and it was the mistake of the UN to try to pressure that animal. Sometimes a carrot will work, sometimes a stick will work, and sometimes a combination of both is needed. Occasionally, you have to get out a rifle and simply put the poor beast out of your misery.

The UN quotes 8-9 MILLION people in Afghanistan that were dependent on International aid workers before the US invasion. Many starved, some died on the way to Pakistan. That's right. Most are in Pakistan now with all of the other American lovers...(that was sarcasm, you caught that right?)

Pretty feeble sarcasm. 8-9 million Afghans I can understand, but there were nowhere near that many receiving aid in Afghanistan itself. Do you really think things are worse there now, since they no longer make a public spectacle out of executing dissidents in the soccer fields?

PA?

Palestinian Authority. Are you telling me you've never seen them referred to by their initials, and you are still tell me what a deep understanding you have of their problems?

Tell me once where "Gandhi-style thinking and tactics" has been applied against such people?

Records are scanty, since there have never been any survivors to explain their insanity.

If they can't organize a nonviolent movement from within, we can ferment one from the outside. That is what I have suggested.

LOL! The Iraqis had enough experience with Saddam, and the Syrians had enough experience with the Assad family, to know better than that. When you face a rabid tiger, you will want to be armed with something of a heavier caliber than a philosophy.

 

[Vader]

If they are properly vetted then I don't see a problem. But I want full background checks before a foot is laid on this soil. I think Missouri Mule put it very well.

:agree

Good call!

 

[Diogenes]

you got ur history mixed up. Ummayad and then the Abbasid Empire marked the Golden Age of Islam (a lot more than a few centuries). They were probably the most advanced in the world at the time, rivaled only by China. Without the Muslims, most of Europe's classical Greek/Latin literature would have been lost forever. It was only around the 1500s that the Muslims relaly began their decline (around the same time Europe began its ascent). But poverty and hunger/ and oppression didn't kick in until imperialism took hold of Asia, and the Ottoman Empire fell into immense corruption.

I count the time as from roughly 800 AD to 1500 AD - that's seven centuries, and includes the period of dominance by the Seljuk Turks. I said a "few centuries", you said "a lot more than a few" - can we compromise on "several centuries" and move on?

And again, I submit that the decline is only relative to the rest of the world. Ordinary citizens were not appreciably better off or worse off in 1900 AD than they were in 900 AD. The rest of the world progressed, the Muslim world did not. (Possibly, I suspect, from the fact that religion and government are so tightly integrated - a guaranteed recipe for cultural paralysis, since all important questions have been answered in the holy books.)

Since Britain was possibly the first global superpower, it had great interest in the Middle East. Thus, it was the first to exploit the region. As leaders in the mid-east countries became puppets of the British or other European empires, the regions fell into neglect, and wasn't able to play catchup.

Britain and France had a long struggle over which would civilize (and tax) the heathens, but after Napoleon's defeat Britain was certainly the big dog in the area. That was probably a good thing for the area, because the Brits left their colonies much better prepared for independence that the Dutch, French, Russians, Austrians and Chinese.

Terrorism in the mid-esat didn't even show up until the early 1900s.

I would date it from the time of the Assassin Sect of Muslims (the name comes from the same root as hashish, the drug used to prep assassins for their suicide missions with visions of the waiting paradise), and that started a few (several?) centuries before the first Crusade. The sect was completely exterminated by the Mongols during their invasion of Persia, and suicide missions remained practically unknown until Arafat revived them as a tool against the Israelis - which, I must admit, is a useful way of disposing of otherwise useless dullards.