Palestinian....Fact or Fiction

[Gardener]

It is a modern construct,

So sounds as if we agree. Palestinians are Arabs, and are a completely modern construct. The site you referenced went back to only 1880, which just happens to coincide with the early Zionist movement. The Palestinian "people" were therefore created by the Zionist movement, since the very basis for their peoplehood is as a reaction against Zionism rather than any real innate difference between Palestinians and other Arabs. Otherwise, there would have been a Palestinian people *before* 1880.

It is good to agree on this much.

 

[Volker]

Yes, I would expect to be 1880 rather early, but maybe these were the very first beginnings. It does coincide with the early Zionist movement, but it does coincide with a lot of other events, too. Somehow, the time from 1850 to 1970 marked the development of national identity in many countries, this includes people in Middle East, Africa, Asia and Europe. And it coincides with the comedown of the Ottoman empire, which led to the development of new national identies in this area.

 

[Tashah]

An Arab of Palestinian descent is not a Syrian or Egypt, he is Palestinian by nationality. On the other hand, not all Palestineans are Arabs. Other ethnical groups can be Palestinians as well. The current draft of Palestinian constitution makes this clear.

Descent denotes lineage, not nationality. The vast majority of indigenous Palestinians are either Transjordanian or Bedouin by lineage.

Arab Palestinians have an own dialect, but this is not the point. Palestinians can have different languages and different religions or the same languages and the same religions like other people. There are a lot of nations around the world who speak English, for instance, or Spanish, if you want, it doesn't mean, they don't constitute distinct entities.

I myself speak the mISR (Egyptian) dialect of Arabic. To postulate that any Arabic dialect is an imprimatur of uniqueness ignores the fact that dialectic diversity is endemnic and rife in the Middle East. Arabic dialects can and often do vary down to the level of the tribe. In a panoramic survey then, Arabic linguistic variations should not be considered a bona-fide cultural or national identifier. With the exception of slang, the Palestinian dialect of Arabic is essentially no different than the Jordanian dialect. This language commonality is inspired by a common lineage, which was addressed above.

 

[Volker]

Descent denotes lineage, not nationality. The vast majority of indigenous Palestinians are either Transjordanian or Bedouin by lineage.

Yes, many Palestinians don't live in Palestine at this time. So Palestine citizenship will be for people, who lived in Palestine before 15th of May 1948, and their descendants, I heard. And I think, those, who will have Palestinian citizenship, are Palestinians.

I myself speak the mISR (Egyptian) dialect of Arabic. To postulate that any Arabic dialect is an imprimatur of uniqueness ignores the fact that dialectic diversity is endemnic and rife in the Middle East.

I understand this and that's why I tried to express, that language doesn't matter to decide this question.

 

[Tashah]

Yes, many Palestinians don't live in Palestine at this time. So Palestine citizenship will be for people, who lived in Palestine before 15th of May 1948, and their descendants, I heard. And I think, those, who will have Palestinian citizenship, are Palestinians.

By dictate or nationality... certainly.

I understand this and that's why I tried to express, that language doesn't matter to decide this question.

Indeed. I simply buttressed and clarified your statement.

 

[Volker]

By dictate or nationality... certainly.


Indeed. I simply buttressed and clarified your statement.

Ok, thank you for doing so

 

[Tashah]

Ok, thank you for doing so

You're quite welcome. Besides, I had a spare minute to kill

 

[ludahai]

, the Catholics have many states, as well as their own little country, where the Vatican City is sitting, given to them by Mussolini,

Another bogus anti-Catholic statement? Mussolini gave the Catholic Church the Vatican? Sorry dude, it was there LONG before Mussolini. The Papal States (the former commonly used name for the Holy See) was one of the largest of the states in Italy prior to the 1870s. Please pick up a book, get a clue, and close the blinders of hate that many Americans (and others) have regarding the Catholic faith.

 

[ludahai]

Just like Kuwait, that was once part or Iraq, the Brits placed sheikh in power and proclaimed Kuwait a country before they withdrew in that area. Why did they do this? Kuwait has an abundance of oil, underground of course. Why not make your money work for you.

Kuwait was never part of Iraq. Iraq, like Palestine, never existed before the 20th century. The land that those areas now claim as their own were part of the Ottoman Empire until the end of World War I. Kuwait was separated from the Ottoman Empire BEFORE its fall.

 

[Mr. D]

The religious prejudice of Zionists believing that a Israel should only be for Jews is what has caused the hatred of so many Muslims. Another example that anything can be supported by the Bible! Too bad the Bible didn't say Texas was the "Land of the Chosen People". That would have ended Zionism in a hurry at the end of a gun barrel! Texans wouldn't have gotten pushed off their land quite so easily as the Palestinian Muslims! Remember Texans and the Mexicans? I always loved the concept of converted Jew Sammy Davis Jr. standing in Israel saying, "Man, like this is my land! Babe, it says so in the Bible!"

 

[ludahai]

The religious prejudice of Zionists believing that a Israel should only be for Jews is what has caused the hatred of so many Muslims.

What about the far more numerous Muslim countries who have declared that their countries are solely for Muslims?

Muslims and Christians have far more rights in Israel than Jews or Christians have in Saudi Arabia, Qatar and a variety of other countries.

 

[HighSpeed]

Kuwait was never part of Iraq.

http://www.csun.edu/~vcmth00m/iraqkuwait.html

 

[ludahai]

http://www.csun.edu/~vcmth00m/iraqkuwait.html

According to the CIA Factbook, Kuwait was under British protection from 1899. Two decades prior to the fall of the Ottoman Empire.

http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ku.html

The history of Kuwait itself dates to the early 18th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Kuwait

 

[HighSpeed]

You can't believe everything the CIA tells you.

Wikipedia is a decent site, but some of the infos fed in there can be wrong.

 

[Picaro]

Another bogus anti-Catholic statement? Mussolini gave the Catholic Church the Vatican? Sorry dude, it was there LONG before Mussolini. The Papal States (the former commonly used name for the Holy See) was one of the largest of the states in Italy prior to the 1870s. Please pick up a book, get a clue, and close the blinders of hate that many Americans (and others) have regarding the Catholic faith.

Really? Maybe before being such a smug dilletante, you might bother to do a little reading of your own ...

The Vatican is the smallest sovereign state in the world, measuring only about 109 acres (44 hectares). It is ringed with centuries-old walls and entirely surrounded by the city of Rome. But it is a separate nation, formed in 1929 in a treaty with the Italian government.

This independence is the Vatican's most important secular feature because it protects the pope from outside interference.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/11/1118_vaticanstgate.html

Now, do we need post yet another link to who was running Italy in 1929? Just ask. I'll be glad to help you pull your head loose from your sphincter.

 

[ludahai]

Really? Maybe before being such a smug dilletante, you might bother to do a little reading of your own ...



http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/11/1118_vaticanstgate.html

Now, do we need post yet another link to who was running Italy in 1929? Just ask. I'll be glad to help you pull your head loose from your sphincter.

The Vatican (Officially known as the Holy See) is the successor to the Papal States, which is hundreds of years old and once ruled most of central Italy. It's current form was created as a result of the Lateran Treaty, that it true. But to suggest that Mussolini created the Vatican or that the Vatican is somehow fascist or beholden to Mussolini is another matter entirely!

 

[Picaro]

There was a Palestine, it is currently called Israel. After WWII, thanks to the Brits, Israel was created for the Jews. The Palestinians were kicked out of their own land. Why do you think the Palestinians, better yet all of the Arab World, are bitter towards the Israelis? The Arab World, even the Persians, would agree to this, and the Israelis will deny it.

This is all pure nonsense. Nobody kicked them off anything. They left to join an invading army bent on genocide against the Jewish population. when they lost, they refused to accept they lost. Many of them were migrants to the area in the first place, brought in during the 1920's and 1930's.

 

[ludahai]

You can't believe everything the CIA tells you.

Wikipedia is a decent site, but some of the infos fed in there can be wrong.

If you actually understood the history of the Anglo-Ottoman Convention, you would not be so confident that it declares Kuwait to be a part of Iraq.

The fact is that in 1913 when the Convention was signed and ratified, there was no Iraq. Kuwait was given SEMI-AUTONOMOUS status under Basra. Basra didn't have full rights over Kuwait. Still, Basra, like Baghdad and other provinces, were part of the Ottoman Empire. That Convention broke down the following year when the British and Ottomans found themselves at war.

The Convention did NOT assign sovereignty over Kuwait to Iraq because there was no Iraq. The Convention does not give Kuwait to Iraq because it was already null and void by the time Iraq was created.

The notion that Kuwait is an historical portion of Iraq is a false one.

 

[ludahai]

This is all pure nonsense. Nobody kicked them off anything. They left to join an invading army bent on genocide against the Jewish population. when they lost, they refused to accept they lost. Many of them were migrants to the area in the first place, brought in during the 1920's and 1930's.

Why do so many people forget the fact that it was the Arabs who started the war later on in 1948 in opposition to a UNITED NATIONS partition plan?

 

[Picaro]

The Vatican (Officially known as the Holy See) is the successor to the Papal States, which is hundreds of years old and once ruled most of central Italy. It's current form was created as a result of the Lateran Treaty, that it true. But to suggest that Mussolini created the Vatican or that the Vatican is somehow fascist or beholden to Mussolini is another matter entirely!

Well, now you have to lie about what I said to cover up your ignorance. Here it is again:

Protestants already have many states for themselves, the Catholics have many states, as well as their own little country, where the Vatican City is sitting, given to them by Mussolini, Muslims have plenty of their own states, etc., so, why should the fact Israel is dominated by Jewish influence such an 'outrage'?

See anything there where I say the Vatican is fascist?

Now that we've established you're making up nonsense, distorting peoples posts and accusing them of 'hate' just to read yourself looking pious, while actually knowing nothing, you could start a separate topic on the Vatican and the Popes and their deals with Mussolini and other Fascists if you want to discuss that.

 

[Picaro]

It looks like most of the land was owned by Palestinians, but it is not so anymore.
Do you think, they sold it? Why should they have done so?

Most of the land was owned by absentee landlords, and worked by fellah, as tenant farmers or serfs under the Ottomans. It had a large migrant worker population, and the taxes were heavy. This left it barren and depopulated for the most part. when the Zionist Movement came along in the late 19th century, they indeed began purchasing land there, and continued to do so. They purchased land throughtout the entire Mandate. It was only later that the British ordered Jews into reservations concentrated in the western part of the Mandate, to appease the Saudis and others after the oil discoveries in the late 1920's. They were not compensated for lost land when they decided to create the Jordanian 'kingdom' on some 80% of the Mandate. They also had to import Muslims from as far away as the Cuacasus Mountains to populate the area; there weren't many local Arabs willing to hang around there. Meantime the British severely restricted the immigration of Jews while exercising no checks on Muslim immigration, and further restricted land available for purchase and development by Jews, again as a favor to the developing oil kingdoms. The fact is, the place would still be a wasteland if Jews hadn't brought in modern agriculture and developed the area. Jordan is barely older than Israel, so why isn't there a big whining noise about them?

As for the dialect thing, it doesn't take but one or two generations for that to change, so it doesn't indicate hundreds of years of living in an area.

 

[ludahai]

Picaro> You claim that the Vatican was given to the Church by Mussolini. That is FALSE. It has belonged to the Church for hundreds of years. A more accurate statement would be that it wasn't TAKEN AWAY by Mussolini. Why do you have to call me ignorant for pointing out the truth of the matter ?

 

[HighSpeed]

The fact is that in 1913 when the Convention was signed and ratified, there was no Iraq.

You right, there was no Iraq, that was the name the British gave that area after the 1920s. That area was originally ancient Mesapotamia.

 

[ludahai]

You right, there was no Iraq, that was the name the British gave that area after the 1920s. That area was originally ancient Mesapotamia.

Just be wary of online pieces from half-baked leftist professors in the future.

 

[Volker]

They purchased land throughtout the entire Mandate.

They bought like 7 %, but they own more than 80 %. Most land has been dispossessed, to use the friendlier word.

The fact is, the place would still be a wasteland if Jews hadn't brought in modern agriculture and developed the area.

This is speculative.