Palestinian....Fact or Fiction

[Picaro]

Can't top that.


It's fascinating to read all the BS people think about how the Zionist Pioneers got there and began their kibbutzes and farms, etc. There is apparently some crazy notion they all showed up as an army and invaded the place en masse or something. I guess it's just too hard to spend any time actually looking it up.:doh

 

[Gardener]

It's clear to those who are really interested in 'fairness' who is on the wrong side and who is on the right side re Israel, I agree.

As for the UN, it is largely a farce anyway. there is one Israel, and a slight majority of Muslim nations with seats at the UN, with a notoriously anti-semitic European bloc who kowtows to the Muslim nations for economic reasons, so naturally there are all these silly infantile 'resolutions' passed for Israel to 'violate'. They are non-binding, so whoopity do.

How many 'resolutions' did Arafat violate? Quadaffy? Saudi Arabia? Letting schoolgirls burn to death because of some cretinous Muslim 'law' doesn't violate any UN resolution, nor does the daily murder of Arab women in 'honor killing's', so, only Israel is an 'outlaw nation'. LOL

People sure like to indulge in circular logic, don't they? "Israel is bad because of the U.N. sanctions, and because of the U.N. sanctions, Israel is bad, and all without so much as a single question as to what motivates the votes.

I'd love to see the results of putting 90 KKK members in a group with 10 African Americans and have them all pass various resolutions based on "democratic" principles.

The European bloc has a little something called the "EuroArab Dialogue". For those doubting your assertion as to some of the economic roots of these attitudes, a little research into the EAD might come in handy. People are quite naive if they think the United States is the only entity for whom the acquisition of petrolium is of such importance as to influence policy. There may be differences in the ways policies take shape, but Europe's answer for the most part was to fuse with the Arab League and take on their views in order to curry favor.

Also, I might add another element in regards to the U.N., and that is the effect of cold war politics. Since Israel was aligned with the United States, the votes against Israel have also long included the soviet block. I think this has been much of the impetus for antisemitism from the extreme left in that sympathies towards Marxism take form in the acceptance of antisemitic rhetorec aimed against the Jewish homeland. We've all heard it a billion times by now, haven't we? "Jews are imperialist colonializers using their conniving, conspiratorial ways to do what Jews have always done, etc, etc......."

 

[Australianlibertarian]

"I got nuttin against Blacks -- I just don't want my daughter going out with one, and think the abolition of slavery was a bad idea.

"I got nuttin against Gays -- I just want schools to be teaching that they're perverts and don't want them to have any civil rights.

"I got nuttin against Jews -- It's just that out of all the people in the entire world, they are the ones I would deny any semblance of self determination."

How is being anti-zionist racist?

Zionism is about a jewish homeland, based on quasi-religious principles.

As an atheist I propose that i petition the UN to establish a state solely for atheists, because only through an atheist nation, will atheists ever be safe from persecution, from theists.

See the absurdity of creating nations purely on religious grounds?

:spin:

 

[Connecticutter]

How is being anti-zionist racist?

Zionism is about a jewish homeland, based on quasi-religious principles.

As an atheist I propose that i petition the UN to establish a state solely for atheists, because only through an atheist nation, will atheists ever be safe from persecution, from theists.

See the absurdity of creating nations purely on religious grounds?

The history of Israel is different than what you are imagining. Jews have had a continuous presence in Israel for thousands of years. Starting in the late 1800s (I think) many persecuted Jews moved to modern-day Israel, which was part of the Ottoman Empire. When this area was taken over by the British after WWI, it seems natural for the Jews to ask for their own state. After all, they were already living there. After WWII and the holocaust, it would seem insane to deny them this state.

You sort of make it sound as if Zionists randomly chose this place called Palestine because of the bible, and came in with guns blazing and took it over. That's untrue - in 1948 they were already there!

 

[Australianlibertarian]

True I do not deny that there has been a constant Jewish prescence in Israel/Palestine, all I am saying is that I don't understand why there should be any country based purely only a religious demographic, whether that be Israel, Saudi Arabia, Iran, or Afghanistan.

 

[cnredd]

I'd love to see the results of putting 90 KKK members in a group with 10 African Americans and have them all pass various resolutions based on "democratic" principles.

The African Americans would have a better shot in this scenario than democracies have at the UN...

 

[CaliNORML]

Since the foundation of Abrhamic faiths this area is indeed holy to all three, the last Theocracy, or government based of religion, was the Ottoman Turks and Islam, here Christians, Jews and Muslims lived side by side, there was an "Islamic State." The Ottomans fell in the late 1700's (maybe wrong) and the British Empire took over. Colonaization left no time for a "State" to arise.

A new war broke out, Isreal. Then suddenly a "recognized state" that soon arose a while after Britian, a political state, were before there was no politics. through war, and colonization Islam was now too weak to once again take over.

When done the land was occupied. Rights to land of those persons there were no longer recognized, even from the Ottoman time.

Palestine was the land the people there never felt a need to form a state in what was all ready recognized as equally shared religious land. The birth place of all three, all thrtee religions were treated with respect, until a claim was laid upon it.

Thus forced to prove itself by standards it can not meet, it is fighing a losing war in the courts. The invader is police, judge and jury leaving them a sense of desperation that drives people to do the horrible things they do today.

Is it right? No, but who is to say one side is totally wrong? To solve conflicts sometimes we must look at the reasons they exist, and try to understand the other side, as well as our own.

KMS

 

[Picaro]

True I do not deny that there has been a constant Jewish prescence in Israel/Palestine, all I am saying is that I don't understand why there should be any country based purely only a religious demographic, whether that be Israel, Saudi Arabia, Iran, or Afghanistan.

At the time the Zionist movement was formed, Jews were considered a 'race' by nearly every country, whether religious or not, and many of the founding pioneers were not religious Jews.

It's kind of ironic to blast them for being a 'religious state' while they were being persecuted and discriminated against nearly everywhere because of their culture and religion, woulnd't you think? At the close of the 19th century, there is the Dreyfus Affair in France, the Pogroms of Russia, just to name two, along with the usual everyday bigotry from the Catholic Church and it's European Protestant copycats, as well as the bigotry in the U.S.

Protestants already have many states for themselves, the Catholics have many states, as well as their own little country, where the Vatican City is sitting, given to them by Mussolini, Muslims have plenty of their own states, etc., so, why should the fact Israel is dominated by Jewish influence such an 'outrage'? It also has a significant population of Arabs, Christians, and Atheists as well, certainly the most cosmopolitan and multicultural societies in modern times.

The fact remains they didn't steal anything from anybody, despite all spindoctoring and sniveling to the contrary, and they are crammed onto less than 20% of the original Mandate, so there is no argument there, as the Arabs and Muslims pretending to be 'natives' are also late arrivals, being pushed there in the late 1920's and 1930's,some 80% of them being as much 'ancient natives' there as I am. A significant number of them aren't even from the Arab countries around them, when it comes to Jordan, many of the Muslim tribes there came from Russia, the Caucasus Mountains, particularly many of those settled around the Capital of Jordan. Many 'Palestinians' merely came there to work on Jewish farms, i.e migrant workers, as it was mainly Jews who developed the area, drained the swamps, etc., not 'Arab's' certainly; previous to Zionist Jewish settlement there wasn't much there.

 

[Gardener]

How is being anti-zionist racist?

Zionism is about a jewish homeland, based on quasi-religious principles.

As an atheist I propose that i petition the UN to establish a state solely for atheists, because only through an atheist nation, will atheists ever be safe from persecution, from theists.

See the absurdity of creating nations purely on religious grounds?

:spin:

What strikes me as absurd is the notion that you would think Israel was created purely on religious grounds. I might suggest you take a course or two in basic sociology, because we are talking about a people here, and not just their religion.

Please enlighten me as to how athiests have formed a distinct culture with shared customs, a 3500 year written history, ties to land lasting millenia and with a history of persecution culminating in 6 million of them loaded up in cattle cars to be sent to extermination camps where they were systematically gassed to death. Otherwise, your analogy is mere sophistry.

 

[Picaro]

Atheists already have countries of their own. The U.S., Red China, North Korea, all staunch Atheist Valhallas, just to name three. Stalinist Soviet Union was also a great Atheist nation, as is modern Russia.

 

[Connecticutter]

True I do not deny that there has been a constant Jewish prescence in Israel/Palestine, all I am saying is that I don't understand why there should be any country based purely only a religious demographic, whether that be Israel, Saudi Arabia, Iran, or Afghanistan.

Consider the vast differences between Israel and it's neighbors. Israel is 20% non-Jewish. All citizens of Israel, regardless of religion, are free to vote in elections and run for office. In fact, Arab women have more rights in Israel than anywhere else in the middle East. Like in the US, while some racist attitudes do exist, there is little to no institutional racism put into law. Everyone has religious freedom. Private property is respected.

Whatever imperfections you can find in Israels system, consider what goes on in neighboring countries. Religion is strictly enforced - there are no Jewish citizens of the Palestinian Authority. Women who do not cover their entire bodies can get beaten, and husbands can beat their wifes. The Palestinian Authority punishes homosexuals by in one case dropping him into a septic tank. The homosexuals of the Palestinian Authority look to Tel Aviv as the where where they can get their freedom. Then there is the training and promotion of suicide bombers and terrorism.

This list can go on and on, but if the Israeli State were to be ended, it would be a defeat for liberty and individual freedom for millions of people. Comparing the religious status of Israel to that of Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia is inaccurate.

 

[Stu Ghatze]

i have heard conflicting reports
is there really a type of person known as Palestinian?

There is not, ..nor was there EVER a person known ethnically, or racially as a palestinian. It was a fraud invention by anti-israeli arab groups.

Here IS the truth, ..IF you dare read it:



The Myth of Palestine

WEDNESDAY
OCTOBER 11
2000

I've been quiet since Israel erupted in fighting spurred by disputes over the Temple Mount.

Until now, I haven't even bothered to say, "See, I told you so." But I can't resist any longer. I feel compelled to remind you of the column I wrote just a couple weeks before the latest uprising. Yeah, folks, I predicted it. That's OK. Hold your applause.

After all, I wish I had been wrong. More than 80 people have been killed since the current fighting in and around Jerusalem began. And for what?

If you believe what you read in most news sources, Palestinians want a homeland and Muslims want control over sites they consider holy. Simple, right?

Well, as an Arab-American journalist who has spent some time in the Middle East dodging more than my share of rocks and mortar shells, I've got to tell you that these are just phony excuses for the rioting, trouble-making and land-grabbing.

Isn't it interesting that prior to the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, there was no serious movement for a Palestinian homeland?

"Well, Farah," you might say, "that was before the Israelis seized the West Bank and Old Jerusalem."

That's true. In the Six-Day War, Israel captured Judea, Samaria and East Jerusalem. But they didn't capture these territories from Yasser Arafat. They captured them from Jordan's King Hussein. I can't help but wonder why all these Palestinians suddenly discovered their national identity after Israel won the war.

The truth is that Palestine is no more real than Never-Never Land. The first time the name was used was in 70 A.D. when the Romans committed genocide against the Jews, smashed the Temple and declared the land of Israel would be no more. From then on, the Romans promised, it would be known as Palestine. The name was derived from the Philistines, a Goliathian people conquered by the Jews centuries earlier. It was a way for the Romans to add insult to injury. They also tried to change the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina, but that had even less staying power.

Palestine has never existed -- before or since -- as an autonomous entity. It was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their homeland.

There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of 1 percent of the landmass.

But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today. Greed. Pride. Envy. Covetousness. No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough.

What about Islam's holy sites? There are none in Jerusalem.

Shocked? You should be. I don't expect you will ever hear this brutal truth from anyone else in the international media. It's just not politically correct.

I know what you're going to say: "Farah, the Al Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem represent Islam's third most holy sites."

Not true. In fact, the Koran says nothing about Jerusalem. It mentions Mecca hundreds of times. It mentions Medina countless times. It never mentions Jerusalem. With good reason. There is no historical evidence to suggest Mohammed ever visited Jerusalem.

So how did Jerusalem become the third holiest site of Islam? Muslims today cite a vague passage in the Koran, the seventeenth Sura, entitled "The Night Journey." It relates that in a dream or a vision Mohammed was carried by night "from the sacred temple to the temple that is most remote, whose precinct we have blessed, that we might show him our signs. ..." In the seventh century, some Muslims identified the two temples mentioned in this verse as being in Mecca and Jerusalem. And that's as close as Islam's connection with Jerusalem gets -- myth, fantasy, wishful thinking. Meanwhile, Jews can trace their roots in Jerusalem back to the days of Abraham.

The latest round of violence in Israel erupted when Likud Party leader Ariel Sharon tried to visit the Temple Mount, the foundation of the Temple built by Solomon. It is the holiest site for Jews. Sharon and his entourage were met with stones and threats. I know what it's like. I've been there. Can you imagine what it is like for Jews to be threatened, stoned and physically kept out of the holiest site in Judaism?

So what's the solution to the Middle East mayhem? Well, frankly, I don't think there is a man-made solution to the violence. But, if there is one, it needs to begin with truth. Pretending will only lead to more chaos. Treating a 5,000-year-old birthright backed by overwhelming historical and archaeological evidence equally with illegitimate claims, wishes and wants gives diplomacy and peacekeeping a bad name.

© 2000 WorldNetDaily.com, Inc.

 

[Kandahar]

I didn't read through this whole thread, so maybe this has already been mentioned. But Palestine was a British colony located in roughly the same area as modern-day Israel. Palestine has been mentioned as far back in history as the Bible. Therefore I don't see any reason to believe it's a new concept, and even if it was, that doesn't make it any less legitimate.

What makes an identity "fact" or "fiction" anyway? If that's how people identify them, that's how people identify them.

 

[Gardener]

I didn't read through this whole thread, so maybe this has already been mentioned. But Palestine was a British colony located in roughly the same area as modern-day Israel. Palestine has been mentioned as far back in history as the Bible. Therefore I don't see any reason to believe it's a new concept, and even if it was, that doesn't make it any less legitimate.

What makes an identity "fact" or "fiction" anyway? If that's how people identify them, that's how people identify them.

You are confused on two counts. The first being the geographical location of the British protectorate called "palestine", because the original Palestine included all of what is now Isreal, the west bank and Jordan, and not just what is now Israel.

The second count is that you are confusing a land designation with a people. The question here isn't whether there has been a land called Palestine, but a people called Palestinians. As far as what constitutes a people, I would suggest you back up any claims you might make according to recognized norms within the field of sociology rather than simply making the erronious jumo in logic where the name of land and the name of a people are synonomous.

Please refer to any doccuments you can find during the British Protectorate period or earlier where people identifid themselves as "Palestinians" and shared a culture distinct enough to be called a people.

 

[Kandahar]

Please refer to any doccuments you can find during the British Protectorate period or earlier where people identifid themselves as "Palestinians" and shared a culture distinct enough to be called a people.

Ever heard of the Philistines from the Bible?

 

[Gardener]

Ever heard of the Philistines from the Bible?

If I hadn't heard of the Philistines, I would be quite the idiot.


Other than the name, though, what do *you* know about these ancient non semitic sea faring people who travelled from the aegean and colonized five cities along the southwest portion of Canaan around 3200 years ago?

What connection do they have with these Arabs now calling themselves Palestinians other than the fact that the name has been resurected?

 

[Thano]

Some of you are really pro Israel why? Acts of terrorism are wrong definately and suicide bombings are no way to further a cause, but surely the Israeli state has blood on its hands and violates many international laws on human rights so....Palestinian = Fact even though they currently have no state they are a peoples just like Kurds are just Like Jews were before they got their land.

 

[HighSpeed]

There was a Palestine, it is currently called Israel. After WWII, thanks to the Brits, Israel was created for the Jews. The Palestinians were kicked out of their own land. Why do you think the Palestinians, better yet all of the Arab World, are bitter towards the Israelis? The Arab World, even the Persians, would agree to this, and the Israelis will deny it.

 

[DeeJayH]

There was a Palestine, it is currently called Israel. After WWII, thanks to the Brits, Israel was created for the Jews. The Palestinians were kicked out of their own land. Why do you think the Palestinians, better yet all of the Arab World, are bitter towards the Israelis? The Arab World, even the Persians, would agree to this, and the Israelis will deny it.

might you have some links to back up your assertions

 

[Volker]

Sorry, I did not read the whole thread.
Maybe you want to look at this old map of Palestine.
http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/cf...a73996728ba8b94785256d560060cd1a!OpenDocument

It looks like most of the land was owned by Palestinians, but it is not so anymore.
Do you think, they sold it? Why should they have done so?

Oh yes, and I noticed, they called the Palestinians Arabs, but this is not a surprise, because it's a map of Palestine. So, saying Palestine Arab or Palestine Jewish is not necessary in this case, I guess.
So, people being Palestinians is a fact, not a fiction.

 

[HighSpeed]

might you have some links to back up your assertions

You could really look it up yourself, at the moment, I do not have links for you. Its a fact, its in the history books. The Brits are really at fault for the problems in that general area. Israel is really not that old as a country, since about 1947, after WWII. After treaties here and treaties there, the Palestinians had the bad end of the deal.

How did Israel come about? Well, lets just say that the Jews were helping fund WWII, which they did. Its not a well known fact that the Jews had money to help fund that war. You think that the U.S. and Israel are allies by accident? Money talks. The U.S. are also allies with most of the Arab World. At the mean time, the Arab World are against Israel, which is a friend of the U.S.. You can say that its a "perfect circle". Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer type of gig. They all keep each other in check, which is a good thing. Its really all politics.

Just like Kuwait, that was once part or Iraq, the Brits placed sheikh in power and proclaimed Kuwait a country before they withdrew in that area. Why did they do this? Kuwait has an abundance of oil, underground of course. Why not make your money work for you.

 

[DeeJayH]

You could really look it up yourself, at the moment, I do not have links for you. Its a fact, its in the history books. The Brits are really at fault for the problems in that general area. Israel is really not that old as a country, since about 1947, after WWII. After treaties here and treaties there, the Palestinians had the bad end of the deal.

How did Israel come about? Well, lets just say that the Jews were helping fund WWII, which they did. Its not a well known fact that the Jews had money to help fund that war. You think that the U.S. and Israel are allies by accident? Money talks. The U.S. are also allies with most of the Arab World. At the mean time, the Arab World are against Israel, which is a friend of the U.S.. You can say that its a "perfect circle". Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer type of gig. They all keep each other in check, which is a good thing. Its really all politics.

Just like Kuwait, that was once part or Iraq, the Brits placed sheikh in power and proclaimed Kuwait a country before they withdrew in that area. Why did they do this? Kuwait has an abundance of oil, underground of course. Why not make your money work for you.

I have better things to do than research everything i ever think about
and given the climate there, it seemed like a good debate topic
and while i find that map interesting I would hardly call it the end all be all of this debate.

and it sure does seem like alot of the problems America is dealing with, is basically cleaning up the problems of the British and other previous conquerors.

 

[Volker]

No, it's not the end of the debate, it wasn't meant this way

 

[Gardener]

No, it's not the end of the debate, it wasn't meant this way

Especially inasmuch as all you have done is produce a map that clearly shows *arabs* rather than "palestinians" inhabiting the region and owning some land.

The original question wasn't whether Arabs owned land (many of whom were absentee owners, btw), but whether there was a people called Palestinians.

You have failed to produce anything that shows a people called "Palestinians". You have shown references to Arabs, certainly, because these are Arabs we are talking about. There is a big difference between a geopolitical designation and a people, and the Arabs in the region calling themselves Palestinians is a very modern construct.

If you wish to support the notion that there has been a historically distinct Palestinian people, you need to doccument historical references to these people. Who were their leaders throughout history, for instance? How is their language or religion distinct from other peoples? What customs do they follow separate from other peoples? It is culture that defines a people, and so to answer the question "Is there a Palestinian people", you need to establish how their culture is distinct enough from other Arabs as to constitute a distinct entity.

You can start with the question "who were the Palestinian leaders throughout history?"

 

[Volker]

There is a big difference between a geopolitical designation and a people, and the Arabs in the region calling themselves Palestinians is a very modern construct.

It is a modern construct, it started to put through in Palestinian population in the last century. People can be Arab and Palestinian at the same time. At this time, there is no single country for all Arabs. There was one in the past and maybe there will be one in the future, but at this time, there is none. Arab people live in different countries. They sure can live in Palestine, too. An Arab of Palestinian descent is not a Syrian or Egypt, he is Palestinian by nationality. On the other hand, not all Palestineans are Arabs. Other ethnical groups can be Palestinians as well. The current draft of Palestinian constitution makes this clear.

You can start with the question "who were the Palestinian leaders throughout history?"

Here you find important persons from Palestinian history.
http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/personalities/0_personalities.htm

What customs do they follow separate from other peoples? It is culture that defines a people, and so to answer the question "Is there a Palestinian people", you need to establish how their culture is distinct enough from other Arabs as to constitute a distinct entity.

Arab Palestinians have an own dialect, but this is not the point. Palestinians can have different languages and different religions or the same languages and the same religions like other people. There are a lot of nations around the world who speak English, for instance, or Spanish, if you want, it doesn't mean, they don't constitute distinct entities.