• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Palestinian....Fact or Fiction

DeeJayH

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 22, 2005
Messages
11,728
Reaction score
1,688
Location
Scooping Zeus' Poop
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
i have heard conflicting reports
is there really a type of person known as Palestinian?
 

akyron

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 17, 2004
Messages
10,342
Reaction score
2,433
Location
Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
DeeJayH said:
i have heard conflicting reports
is there really a type of person known as Palestinian?


The Myth of Palestine

Issues on the mythical Palestine


"The truth is that Palestine is no more real than Never-Never Land. "



yeah there are conflicting reports. I find it interesting how "Degree holders in medicine, computer science and other branches of science and technology " are given preference to citizenship in Arab countries but the rest must remain "refugees" in the interest of "maintaining their identity".

Maintaining their identity as a poor mofo with nothing to lose on the doorstep of Israel would be a more accurate description.

This looks like having a bum living in your yard when his family has a mansion across the street. Whats up with that?
 

cnredd

Major General Big Lug
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 5, 2005
Messages
8,682
Reaction score
262
Location
Philadelphia,PA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
A Palestinian living in the disputed territories is like an "Appalachian" living in West Virginia or Virginia or Kentucky or Western Pennsylvania...It's a term defined by geography, not country...though some will try to make it seem that way...
 

bandaidwoman

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 10, 2005
Messages
582
Reaction score
25
Location
Covington,Georgia
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Liberal
There is no doubt the Palestinian "identity" is real, which at this point is the shared experience and horror of displacement by a mixed group of Arabs (and at one time included Jews before the establishment of Israel). Granted, it is not an " Arabic ethnic nation state "with hundreds of years of identity but it does not discount the fact that the idendity is real. This is very unlike the Kurds or the Jews. (I believe many of them were Jordanians when Jordan seded some of their land?) I may be wrong.
 

DeeJayH

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 22, 2005
Messages
11,728
Reaction score
1,688
Location
Scooping Zeus' Poop
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
bandaidwoman said:
There is no doubt the Palestinian "identity" is real, which at this point is the shared experience and horror of displacement by a mixed group of Arabs (and at one time included Jews before the establishment of Israel). Granted, it is not an " Arabic ethnic nation state "with hundreds of years of identity but it does not discount the fact that the idendity is real. This is very unlike the Kurds or the Jews. (I believe many of them were Jordanians when Jordan seded some of their land?) I may be wrong.
so it is a fictional identity
thnx
 
Joined
Jul 26, 2005
Messages
1,011
Reaction score
306
Location
Geelong, Australia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
No more fictional, than Israeli citizens.

Before the creation of Israel, what region existed under British rule and before that Trukish rule?

Palestine. The Arabs, Jews and Christians that lived in that regions would have been known as Palestinians!

In the long term it probably makes sense that the refugees in from Palestine living in Jordan and Egypt apply for citizenship in those respective countries. But that does nto mean that these people are making up an identity.
 

bandaidwoman

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 10, 2005
Messages
582
Reaction score
25
Location
Covington,Georgia
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Liberal
DeeJayH said:
so it is a fictional identity
thnx

Just because the Palestinian identity is relatively young historically (compared to the Kurds and Jews) does not make it any less real. I think we can argue semantics but to the Palestinians, their identity is real and we won't be able to change that. In fact, I don't think there is a time requirement for developing a group or National identity. This is tangential but doesn't someone just have to live on America soil for five years before they can decalre themselves an "American" ?( by passing the naturalization and citizenship exam of course.)
 

superskippy

Active member
Joined
Jul 8, 2005
Messages
377
Reaction score
2
Location
Tel'Aviv (when not on duty.)
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Yeah. They came into existance after they lost in 1967 and learned how to play politics. They realized that an actual individual people pulls more heart strings than simply calling them Arabs. So they made up an identity and eventually it grew into a reality.
 

Stu Ghatze

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 30, 2005
Messages
531
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
DeeJayH said:
i have heard conflicting reports
is there really a type of person known as Palestinian?




Actually NO! Arafat invented the term for it to disingenuinely denote a "people", or an "ethnicity", ..that was the sole reason behind his scheme.

Palestine comes from the ancient ROMAN name, Palestina which was a geographical area once inhabited by the ancient philistines, ..thus that is where the "root" word originated from.

Arafat in fact, ..was born in Egypt himself. THe non-jewish inhabitents of Palestine are basically misplaced Jordanians, & Syrians who are nothing more than generic arab peoples who were basically wandering nomadic tribes who were land squatters even when Turkey controlled the area.

To imply or state that there EVER was a golden age for a people called; "Palestinian", that had a past government, or country, or kingdom, or coined money that represented them is ridiculous.

In Ancient Israel's past there were a multitude of arab peoples LONG BEFORE Islams founding, & they co-existed with Israel, & in fact many of them WERE allies with Israel such as King Hiram from Phoenecia/Lebanon who also was a trading partner with Israel.

The notion, & false teaching that Israel threw out these people when Israel was granted statehood is completely FALSE, ..& Israel did not dispossess any body from their land in 1948.

After the 1948 statehood of Israel, ..many ISLAMIC countries declared war on Israel the very next day, & ORDERED their muslim palestinian brothers to leave Israel.

Israel did NOT wish for that, & in fact know it suicidal to not want to have peace among all the people around the nation of Israel as they are surrounded by millions of Arab peoples.

The so called, "palestinians" are nothing more than "proxies" for most arab nations that despise Israel, & want to see the dissolution of the jewish state by years of rebellion, & war, & acts of nonstop terrorism against the state of Israel & its jewish citizens.

The notion that all it is about is statehood for the Palestinians is FALSE, because they could have had THEIR OWN state decades ago....IF that is all it was about, & Israel WAS willing to accept that.

IT actually is MORE than just about statehood, ..& like it or not the truth MUST be told, & that is it is BECAUSE OF ISLAM that Israel is hated, & despised, & reviled because that is what IS taught by the mullahs, & by the Koran.

When the british government set aside (The Balfour Declaration) land parcels it reserved the most for the arabs in that region because the arab population was bigger.

Sorry to say BUT peace will never come to that region until Muslims have successfully extracted their will upon the Jewish state of Israel, ..& nobody with a sense of honesty can hardly dispute it any longer.

Israel does NOT initiate terror, ..but it RESPONDS to it very forcibly. Clearly the true minority in that region of the world IS the jewish state of Israel, & the only time REAL peace will come to that region is when, & "IF" muslim terror is extrapolated continually upon the jewish population, & wears them down through constant murder, & violence...with the rest of Arab muslim world condemnation, & their constant demands for more land & more concessions. Israel is VERY small in geographic region, & size.

The truth is, & has been that the whole palestinian movement has been to portray themselves FALSELY as "victims" of Israeli oppression to rally other arab muslim nations to its cause of mutual islamic hate for Israel, ..& what unites them IS ISLAM.

Having palestinains wage war upon Israel through daily terrorism is far better for them, & more cost effective than by launching unsuccessful wars against Israel such as all the wars that Egypt, & their Arab allies fought & lost against Israel,...The Palestinans are serving them by proxy quite nicely, & recieving world sympathy at the same time.

The bottom line is that it is NOT about having a just peace with Israel, ..No....it about the ultimate destruction of the state of Israel that is lusted for by the arab muslim population at large because it is an ideology base that was brought forth, & united by the seeds of Islamic teachings, ..& it is time that fair minded people stop behaving like the ostrich.

Wherever jews were to be found, ..be it the 1972 Munich olympic games, or luxury cruise ships,(Achille Laurel) ..or anywhere jews were to be found...they have been singled out, & executed ruthlessly by islamics.
 

Tashah

wʜɪтe яussɪaи
DP Veteran
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
18,379
Reaction score
9,226
Location
ישראל • אמריקה
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Centrist
I am neither an historian nor anthropologist, but it is my understanding that the term 'Palestine' is the Anglicized version of the Roman possession of Palestinia... which included all of the Holy Land and good portions of the Levant. In reality, modern Palestinians are Arabs who hail from portions of the former country of Transjordan. Also included are Bedouin nomads who inhabit both the Sinai and Negev deserts. Historically, this area has been controled by numerous empires... and there has never existed a recognized soverign nation known as Palestine.



 

Stu Ghatze

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 30, 2005
Messages
531
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Tashah said:
I am neither an historian nor anthropologist, but it is my understanding that the term 'Palestine' is the Anglicized version of the Roman possession of Palestinia... which included all of the Holy Land and good portions of the Levant. In reality, modern Palestinians are Arabs who hail from portions of the former country of Transjordan. Also included are Bedouin nomads who inhabit both the Sinai and Negev deserts. Historically, this area has been controled by numerous empires... and there has never existed a recognized soverign nation known as Palestine.






And Dear Tashah, ...You are quite correct!
 

vergiss

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Messages
2,356
Reaction score
1
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Australianlibertarian said:
No more fictional, than Israeli citizens.

Before the creation of Israel, what region existed under British rule and before that Trukish rule?

Palestine. The Arabs, Jews and Christians that lived in that regions would have been known as Palestinians!

In the long term it probably makes sense that the refugees in from Palestine living in Jordan and Egypt apply for citizenship in those respective countries. But that does nto mean that these people are making up an identity.
Except Palestine doesn't exist anymore, so nor do "Palestinians".
 

Picaro

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2006
Messages
585
Reaction score
106
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
The notion that all it is about is statehood for the Palestinians is FALSE, because they could have had THEIR OWN state decades ago....IF that is all it was about, & Israel WAS willing to accept that.
Good post overall.

They are just a group of people being used by their 'Arab and Muslim Brothers' to harass Israel. They already have a homeland, it's called Jordan, and it covers over 80% of the original British Mandate. But, they got thrown out of there for trying to assassinate and overthrow that government, proceeded to murder and butcher the Lebanese after that, and generally have out worn their 'welcome' everywhere else.

The fact is, they get paid fairly well, by the UN, Saudi Arabia, etc., to be 'Professional Refugees' and conduct terrorist campaigns against Israelis; their 'foreign aid' from the West is more than twice what similiar 'refugees' in places like Africa or Asia get. The only requirement to be considered 'Palestinian' is to have resided in a 'refugee camp' for two years; this makes them desirable palces to settle for most of the indigent throughout the Arab world, much like Mexico using the U.S.'s social services system as a place to dump it's unwanted citizens.
 

Picaro

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2006
Messages
585
Reaction score
106
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
I've always wondered why Jordan is supposed to be considered a 'legitimate' state, while Israel isn't. They couldn't find enough Muslims to populate it in the 1930's, so they had to scour the Soviet Union and the entire Muslim wolrd to find 'natives' to populate it. It just struck me the anti-Israeli factions never seem to want to point this out ... it seems these anti-Israeli "Leftists For Peace'' types would be demanding that Jews be allowed to settle anywhere in the original Mandate, if they were truly 'concerned about fair play and the rights of both sides', eh?
 
Last edited:

Gardener

free market communist
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 5, 2005
Messages
26,661
Reaction score
15,927
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I would love to be able to send people to the area at various times in history, complete witth the ability to speak the language. I would instruct them to search for people who called themseloves Palestinians. In fact, were that search conducted in the first part ofthe 20th century, I would further instruct them to address the Arab people there as "Palestinians".

I would be prepared to treat their injuries upon return.


The creation of the Palestinians in the latter part of the 20th century served a cynical political purpose in that it changed people's perceptions of the dynamic involved from ARAB/jew to ISRAELI/palestinian. The systematic propaganda that has accompanied this shift in perception has involved such a complete role reversal that Israel is commonly compared to Nazis, while those who have actually inhereted the Nazi mantle (through the Muslim brotherhood) are absolved of their hatred because they have convinced the world that black is white and up is down.

What I never seem to be able to figure out is why so many self-professed liberals side with the extremely illiberal against the one tiny little oaisis of liberality in the whole region. From women's rights to gay rights to freedom of expression to minority rights, there is no comparison between Israel and any Arab state, yet those who say they support certain values here in this country too often completely abandon them when it comes to discussions of the middle east. Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood represent the ultimate expression of a viscious brand of uber-conservatism rooted centuries in the past, and I really wish more liberals could figure that out on their own.

Who knows -- maybe the world is experiencing some sort of paradigm shift due to the incessant Islamist propaganda because it seems that to an increasing degree only those in the middle or right are willing to fight against this incredibly intolerant and conformist political ideology, while it is those on the left and far left who are more and more prone to acting as apologists for it. This, despite what liberality *should* entail.
 

Picaro

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2006
Messages
585
Reaction score
106
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
Yes. The 'Palestinians' only became a 'People' in 1967 and after.

The Arab Mufti of Jerusalem played a major role as a propogandist for Adolph Hitler in the 1930's and throughout WW II, he was on his payroll in fact, and played a major role in pressuring the British government's denying sanctuary in the British Mandate to hundreds of thousands of Jews, if you recall Hitler's famous political ploy to allow Jews who gave up all their belongings and money to immigrate to Palestine, which the British of course refused to allow, being more concerned with appeasing Arabs for oil, giving Hitler a major PR coup at the time and of course this condemned most of them to death in slave labor camps and death camps.

There is a strong, long time link between Nazis, Neo-Nazis, and Muslims; the Arab countries gladly trained Neo-Nazis side by side with the rest of the terrorists right up to the present day. The hijacking of the plane that led to the Entebbe rescue was perpetrated by Germans and PLO terrorists working together.
 

Picaro

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2006
Messages
585
Reaction score
106
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
The systematic propaganda that has accompanied this shift in perception has involved such a complete role reversal that Israel is commonly compared to Nazis, while those who have actually inhereted the Nazi mantle (through the Muslim brotherhood) are absolved of their hatred because they have convinced the world that black is white and up is down.
What is hilarious about this blatant propoganda is that it is the Jews who have been forced onto a tiny, arbitrarily defined reservation, not Arabs or Muslims. The original agreements including allowing them to settle anywhere in the Mandate. The British then caved in to the bankers and oil industry and created 'Jordan' out of whole cloth, and began massive waves of Muslim immigration to this magically restored 'historical kingdom', while severely restricting Jewish immigration in the late 1920's and after. Jews and Christians were murdered, robbed, and stripped of their money and property and then forced onto reservations in the western part of the Mandate.
 
Last edited:

blastula

Banned
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
495
Reaction score
31
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Before the world was beseiged by terrorism, I wasn't into what was going on in the middle east. After reading through some historical accounts I'm beginning to get some idea of what the constant fight was all about and how it all happened.

Terrorism against innocent civilians is never justified whatsoever for whatever cause one may have. Those islamic nations looked more like a bunch of bullies and sore losers that never learn how to concede to defeat. Arafat and his radical islamic militants already stood on wrong ground, and yet it is sick to see that the UN is stern against Israel's effort to defend itself and blind towards the islamic terrorism towards innocent Israelis people, including women, children, and elderly.

Because the world did not speak out sternly against terrorism, and now the world is reaping the fruits of its evil.
 

Picaro

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2006
Messages
585
Reaction score
106
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
It's clear to those who are really interested in 'fairness' who is on the wrong side and who is on the right side re Israel, I agree.

As for the UN, it is largely a farce anyway. there is one Israel, and a slight majority of Muslim nations with seats at the UN, with a notoriously anti-semitic European bloc who kowtows to the Muslim nations for economic reasons, so naturally there are all these silly infantile 'resolutions' passed for Israel to 'violate'. They are non-binding, so whoopity do.

How many 'resolutions' did Arafat violate? Quadaffy? Saudi Arabia? Letting schoolgirls burn to death because of some cretinous Muslim 'law' doesn't violate any UN resolution, nor does the daily murder of Arab women in 'honor killing's', so, only Israel is an 'outlaw nation'. LOL
 

blastula

Banned
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
495
Reaction score
31
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I totally agree, UN is largely a farce especially given the recent corruption scandal.

I couldn't believe it when I once read about the part where UN decided to withdraw from the Sinai border during the most intense period when Eypgt was threatening to destroy Israel. It's as if UN couldn't careless whether Israel was being attacked or not. I was quite surprised that Israel was able to win all the wars against 4 or 5 well armed Islamic nations. I think the most memorable was the 6 days war. I don't how Israel pulled it off, but Israel certainly did and against the relatively latest weapon from Soviet Union.

I know Israel is forced to defend itself from terrorism coming from its neighbor, but I always hope Israel won't stoop down to their coward standard by attacking indiscrimantely against innocent civilians of the Palestinian side while trying to pursue the criminals. I believe most ordinary Palestinians are ignorant of the truth due to false teaching by the radical Islamic groups and in their education, I heard. But, not all of them are bad, I don't think so.
 

Mr. D

Active member
Joined
Sep 19, 2005
Messages
376
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Zionism is the root of the entire problem! When Zionist Jews want a country only for Jews it is no more right than the Taliban wanting a country only for Muslims! It's religious, racial and ethic prejudice! If Jews had moved to Palestine after WW II to live and share the country with the Palestinian Muslims that were there for scores of generations the hate for Jews would not have become the issue it is today! Jews, Christians and Muslims existed in that area before the U.K and the U.S supported the Zionist Jews that wanted Israel to be only for Jews! Before you pull out the cheapo anti Semite charge, I am pro Jew and anti Zionist! More and more Israeli's are coming to this conclusion now! They are tired of the Zionists keeping them in an unending conflict with no hope of peace! Read a "objective" history of what happen in Israel after WW II and you'll understand why Palestinian Muslims feel they have had their homes stolen at gun point! Notice that when land was taken by Israel with the rationale of a safety, military buffer zone very quickly they built permanent settlements with public utilities to keep the newly acquired land permanently! That is what Sharon has been trying to undo to create a legacy of peace in his name! Who know what will happen now! If the Bible had said Texas was the home of the chosen people we'd have a different attitude about Zionist Jews! There would be a few Texans that wouldn't get pushed off their land so easily!
 
Last edited:

Gardener

free market communist
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 5, 2005
Messages
26,661
Reaction score
15,927
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Mr. D said:
Before you pull out the cheapo anti Semite charge, I am pro Jew and anti Zionist!

"I got nuttin against Blacks -- I just don't want my daughter going out with one, and think the abolition of slavery was a bad idea.

"I got nuttin against Gays -- I just want schools to be teaching that they're perverts and don't want them to have any civil rights.

"I got nuttin against Jews -- It's just that out of all the people in the entire world, they are the ones I would deny any semblance of self determination."
 
Top Bottom