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Over 59% of the Belgians support a ban on minarets

Camlon

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PeteEU: Yes, fertility rate is increasing in some western European countries, but not by much. I use the CIA data for the last eight years. To list the countries after size
Germany (1.38 -1.41)
France (1.98 -1.88)
United Kingdom (1.63 - 1.66)
Italy (1.18 -1.30)
Spain (1.15 - 1.30)
Netherlands (1.64 -1.66)
Greece (1.33 - 1.36)
Belgium (1.61 -1.65)
Portugal (1.47 - 1.49)
Sweden (1.53 - 1.67)
Austria (1.39 - 1.38)
Switzerland (1.47 - 1.44)
Denmark (1.73 -1.74)
Finland (1.70 - 1.73)
Norway (1.85 - 1.78)
Irland (1.91 - 1.85)

This isn't any massive increase, and may rebound again. Even though Muslim fertility rate decreases from 3-4 to "only" 2 in some generations, it is still a lot higher than the European fertility rate and their population will increase much faster than the European population because they are young, while Europeans aren't. Look at Japan, they have a fertility rate of about 1.3. By 2100 their estimated population will go from 130 to 50 millions if they keep the same fertility rate. Think about the work force. The same will happen to the European population. [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Japan[/ame]


Today, most western European countries have about 5% Muslims. It is already causing a lot of trouble. Many cities have 20-30% Muslims. Imagine 20%, and it's not going to stop in 2050.
 
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Oh I think people know. Of course we and most Muslims want nothing to do with that just like they want nothing to do with terrorism.

It's a multi faceted problem and I think that is why it can be difficult to deal with.

Here is the UK we had people from Pakistan suffering perrinial racism which had nothing to do with them being Muslim and indeed before 9/11 many of them were not.

Most people who arrived here from the '60's to the 80's or 90's encouraged their kids to integrate...but the racism did not see that. Many had given up their religion...and then we had 9/11 and this resulted in 670 attacks on muslims and property within a period of two weeks followed by harrassment and name calling and more attacks - so they almost all became visibly Muslim, wearing Muslim dress and demanding Muslim rights and returning to their religion, a thing which some of them knew nothing about.

I know about the cruelty and the extent of the racism these people went through because my daughter kept me informed of the taunts they experienced daily at school because of where their parents came from. It does not surprise me they were angry.

Many of these angry people of Muslim descent but not practising were the very ones who were prone to both Wahhabism and terrorism.

Every thing was shaken up.

However we have seen another change in the UK. When Islamists went on a march wanting Sharia for the UK they found very few people there and another Muslim march against Sharia,

When Wilbur at last arrived they only managed to get 40 people to shout and blow for his murder as other Muslims could see what was going on and that they were being manipulated.

Both Nationalists and Islamists want the general public to hate Muslims for different reasons.

We simply need to get some sanity back and realise that most Muslims are just like the rest of society they come in every shade of charactor and they will themselves work to sort things out when we also accept them.

I am half Irish and began my life as a Roman Catholic but not once did one person accuse me of the IRA bombings. I will feel sanity has resumed when I see this same behaviour being extended to our Muslims communites. ;)

Then, I take it, you don't have a problem with this.......:mrgreen:


source


Sharia law UK: Mail on Sunday gets exclusive access to a British Muslim courtBy Edna Fernandes
Last updated at 9:57 PM on 04th July 2009


.....There are 12 councils or courts operating in Britain under Dr Hasan's group, based in London, Birmingham, Manchester, Rotherham and Bradford. Scores more imams dispense justice through their own mosques.
A study last week by the thinktank Civitas claimed that there could be as many as 85 sharia courts in Britain, although Dr Hasan says most of these are not formal courts. But it is certainly a growing network.......



....Under Muslim law, a man can divorce his wife simply by uttering the word 'talaq', yet a woman cannot be granted a divorce without the consent of her husband or winning a dissolution of the marriage from the imam. Even if the couple are divorced under British law, they remain married under Islam until divorced under the religious law, too......


.....It becomes clear that Ameena's story of violence, abandonment and difficulty in securing an Islamic divorce is not isolated. Several other cases during the meeting detail claims of 'terrifying abuse', including one where a gun was placed against a woman's head, and another husband who tried to strangle his wife and children.
If the husband has disputed his wife's word, the court demands her account is corroborated by other witnesses - preferably male. If the wife refuses to agree to give the husband access to their children, even in cases of possible child abuse, the divorce is stalled until that issue is resolved......


.....When I suggest that many people in Britain would find some of sharia's provisions extreme and difficult to accept, he agrees. 'We need to adapt sharia for British law. We could use some of the more moderate measures.'
Such as? 'Child abuse, under-age sex, teenage pregnancy, for example.'
I ask what the penalty would be for under-age sex. 'You won't like it. But sharia says if they're caught doing it, you stone the woman.'
Mr Sarwar's other suggestion is to adapt the 'three strikes' policy on crime. Instead of being jailed on the third conviction, a criminal could face having a hand chopped off.
'That would fit in with the way of life here. I'm not being extreme. This has to be used in moderation, for serious crimes, not petty robbery. In this country, people get away with murder.' .....
 
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Dutch

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PeteEU: Yes, fertility rate is increasing in some western European countries, but not by much. I use the CIA data for the last eight years. To list the countries after size


This isn't any massive increase, and even though Muslim fertility rate decreases from 3-4 to "only" 2 in some generations, it is still a lot higher than the European fertility rate and their population will increase much faster than the European population because they are young, while Europeans aren't. Look at Japan, they have a fertility rate of about 1.3. By 2100 their estimated population will go from 130 to 50 millions if they keep the same fertility rate. Think about the work force. The same will happen to the European population. However, due to immigration it is estimated an increase in population. Demographics of Japan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Today, most western European countries have about 5% Muslims. It is already causing a lot of trouble. Many cities have 20-30% Muslims. Imagine 20%, and it's not going to stop in 2050.

Those "replacement rates" are a joke. The fact of the matter is......what we call "western culture" is dying, and fast.
 

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PeteEU: Yes, fertility rate is increasing in some western European countries, but not by much. I use the CIA data for the last eight years. To list the countries after size


This isn't any massive increase, and may rebound again. Even though Muslim fertility rate decreases from 3-4 to "only" 2 in some generations, it is still a lot higher than the European fertility rate and their population will increase much faster than the European population because they are young, while Europeans aren't. Look at Japan, they have a fertility rate of about 1.3. By 2100 their estimated population will go from 130 to 50 millions if they keep the same fertility rate. Think about the work force. The same will happen to the European population. Demographics of Japan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Today, most western European countries have about 5% Muslims. It is already causing a lot of trouble. Many cities have 20-30% Muslims. Imagine 20%, and it's not going to stop in 2050.

Are you sure you really belong in this forum, Camlon? How dare you use facts instead of p.c. propaganda!!
 

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When people speak about the increase of the Muslim populaton in Europe, they forget about the simultaneous rise of the extreme right-wing.

Just saying ...
 

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Those "replacement rates" are a joke. The fact of the matter is......what we call "western culture" is dying, and fast.

It seems that too few of us are willing to stand up and say "Yes, our free and liberal society IS worth preserving in the face of the onslaught it is facing. From far too many, all you hear is a form of cultural self-loathing.
 

Mira

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No problem Europe. Colonise Muslim countries without EVER showing any respect for their customs, culture or religion, mess up their countries, bring them over later to use as cheap labour, then when you're done with them complain because they're having children.

Miscalculations always backfire.
 

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When people speak about the increase of the Muslim populaton in Europe, they forget about the simultaneous rise of the extreme right-wing.

Just saying ...

The Muslim population IS right wing -- As a whole, it is so far right wing as a off the charts by western standards.

Unfortunately, because of the stranglehold of the cult of multiculturalism, no other viable segment of the European population has emerged in such a way as to point out the dangers to a liberal society thus posed.
 

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The Muslim population IS right wing -- As a whole, it is so far right wing as a off the charts by western standards.

Unfortunately, because of the stranglehold of the cult of multiculturalism, no other viable segment of the European population has emerged in such a way as to point out the dangers to a liberal society thus posed.

Of course, it is a well-known fact that the majority of the members of far-right parties such as the Front Nationale and BNP are Muslims :roll::roll::roll:
 

Camlon

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When people speak about the increase of the Muslim populaton in Europe, they forget about the simultaneous rise of the extreme right-wing.

Just saying ...
No, absolutely not. That is part of the problem. Radicalization on both sides cause trouble and they are increasing each others support.

The best way is to limit immigration like Denmark and increase birth rates.


Of course, it is a well-known fact that the majority of the members of far-right parties such as the Front Nationale and BNP are Muslims :roll::roll::roll:

Muslims don't have their own party yet, but some values are quite far-right. For instance, their family structure where women need to cover their faces and often aren't allowed to go out. A society where pedophilia is acceptable, while homosexuality get a death sentence. Many Muslims have a lot of far-right values, you can't deny that.

Thanks for all the support. :2razz:
 
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Mira

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No, absolutely not. That is part of the problem. Radicalization on both sides cause trouble and they are increasing each others support.

The best way is to limit immigration like Denmark and increase birth rates.

Radicalisation always causes trouble. But when Europe colonised the countries of their immigrants, then brought them in as cheap labour, did they think of the consequences ? Are the immigrants cattle that you can use and dipose of whenever its convenient ?


Muslims don't have their own party yet, but some values are quite far-right. For instance, their family structure where women need to cover their faces and often aren't allowed to go out. A society where pedophilia is acceptable, while homosexuality get a death sentence. Many Muslims have a lot of far-right values, you can't deny that.

Thanks for all the support. :2razz:


What is the percentage of radical Muslims in Europe and why is radical Islam on the rise worldwide ?

Is that the only image that you have of Muslims in Europe ? Do you ever see the moderates and even the secular Muslims ?

Is pedophelia really accepted in Islam or in Muslims society ? I'd like you to show me where you found that information. Is it accepted in far-right philosophy ? what are you talking about ?

Some clarifying will be useful and appreciated.
 

Camlon

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Radicalisation always causes trouble. But when Europe colonised the countries of their immigrants, then brought them in as cheap labour, did they think of the consequences ? Are the immigrants cattle that you can use and dipose of whenever its convenient ?
No, that's how US did it. Yes, Europeans did colonize in the 1800s and earlier, but they didn't bring them to Europe to become slaves.

The immigration we see to Europe today is due to liberal Europeans who think we should help poor people by letting them come to Europe.



What is the percentage of radical Muslims in Europe and why is radical Islam on the rise worldwide ?

Is that the only image that you have of Muslims in Europe ? Do you ever see the moderates and even the secular Muslims ?

Is pedophelia really accepted in Islam or in Muslims society ? I'd like you to show me where you found that information. Is it accepted in far-right philosophy ? what are you talking about ?

Some clarifying will be useful and appreciated.
I don't know the percentage. Most Europeans don't vote for BNP or any other right-wing party in Europe either. However, some do. Likewise with Muslims, and it's increasing for both sides.

Pedophilia is accepted in many Muslims societies. If you want evidence, look at their age of consent, and also remember that in many of the countries it isn't enforced. When a eight year old girl is married away to a 25 year old man. What do you think he does to the girl?
 

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Of course, it is a well-known fact that the majority of the members of far-right parties such as the Front Nationale and BNP are Muslims :roll::roll::roll:

You have absolutely no idea what various terms mean, do you?

Working against the separation of church and state, disregarding women's rights, prejudice against homosexuals, standing against freedom of speech -- these are all archly regressive stances which are expressions of extreme right ideology.
 

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You have absolutely no idea what various terms mean, do you?

Working against the separation of church and state, disregarding women's rights, prejudice against homosexuals, standing against freedom of speech -- these are all archly regressive stances which are expressions of extreme right ideology.

And why are you spinning the subject ? I am talking about the far-right wing parties such as FN and BNP who's popularity rises at the same time as the numbers of immigrants . So before Europe ever becomes Muslim as some might fear, those parties will be popular enough to kick the butts of the Mulsims in Europe and the Jews with them. Do you realise that, or don't you ?
 

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No, that's how US did it. Yes, Europeans did colonize in the 1800s and earlier, but they didn't bring them to Europe to become slaves.

The immigration we see to Europe today is due to liberal Europeans who think we should help poor people by letting them come to Europe.

Ooooh yes they did. I said cheap labour, I didn't say slaves. These people come to Europe for economical reasons and they come to the countries who once colonised them.




I don't know the percentage. Most Europeans don't vote for BNP or any other right-wing party in Europe either. However, some do. Likewise with Muslims, and it's increasing for both sides.

Pedophilia is accepted in many Muslims societies. If you want evidence, look at their age of consent, and also remember that in many of the countries it isn't enforced. When a eight year old girl is married away to a 25 year old man. What do you think he does to the girl?

When you say pedophelia, one understand child molestation. The age of marriage is much younger in some societies, it is so in Isdia as well.
You don't see these cases often, not in Europe anyway, and when they do happen in some primitive Muslim countries, they are widely spoken about in the Western press.

But speaking of pedophelia, in the real sense, doesn't the Vatican protect its pedophile preists ? Wasn't it only recently that in Brazil a man raped a 12 year-old and got her pregnant with twins ? When the child who's life was in danger got an abortion, she, as well as her mother and the doctors were discomuned by the Cathilic church but NOT the raper. The church considered the rape of a 12 year-old to be a lesser sin than the abortion.
 

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When you say pedophelia, one understand child molestation. The age of marriage is much younger in some societies, it is so in Isdia as well.
You don't see these cases often, not in Europe anyway, and when they do happen in some primitive Muslim countries, they are widely spoken about in the Western press.

But speaking of pedophelia, in the real sense, doesn't the Vatican protect its pedophile preists ? Wasn't it only recently that in Brazil a man raped a 12 year-old and got her pregnant with twins ? When the child who's life was in danger got an abortion, she, as well as her mother and the doctors were discomuned by the Cathilic church but NOT the raper. The church considered the rape of a 12 year-old to be a lesser sin than the abortion.

While i disagree with some of the views being position here, she's right about the catholics. :shrug:

She owneth you guys. :2razz:
 

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No problem Europe. Colonise Muslim countries without EVER showing any respect for their customs, culture
Or lack thereof.

or religion
Religion is amoral trash and deserves no respect. At least that's true of the Abramaic religions such as Islam.

mess up their countries,
They did a good job of that on their own. Look at Iran and the wackjob that the people wanted in power. I hope they're happy.

bring them over later to use as cheap labour, then when you're done with them complain because they're having children.
So get them out then. But don't be surprised if they try to sneak back in, because as much as they bitch and moan about "The Great Satan", they enjoy our luxuries and would never want to live in Iran or Saudi Arabia (the 9/11 bombers even boozed it up at a strip bar before blowing up the towers).

Miscalculations always backfire.
Big deal. People who condone a hate religion like Islam deserve no special treatment. They can be treated the same for spewing their hate as a KKK member would, and if they don't like it. Tough. They can move back to Iran then if they love sharia law so much.
 
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Ooooh yes they did. I said cheap labour, I didn't say slaves. These people come to Europe for economical reasons and they come to the countries who once colonised them.
No, you need to look at the numbers. Most muslims didn't come in 50-70s as cheap labour, except France. Most muslims came the last 10-20 years, and immigration have been increasing the last ten years. Quite drastically as well.

I don't know why you make that kind of fuss about pedophilia. My original statement was, death penalty to homosexuality and pedophilia is accepted in many muslim societies. I argued against your statement where you said that muslim extremist aren't far-right (or they don't exist). That Vatican said abortion is worse than pedophilia, won't help your case.
 
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No, you need to look at the numbers. Most muslims didn't come in 50-70s as cheap labour, except France. Most muslims came the last 10-20 years, and immigration have been increasing the last ten years. Quite drastically as well.

I don't know why you make that kind of fuss about pedophilia. My original statement was, death penalty to homosexuality and pedophilia is accepted in many muslim societies. I argued against your statement where you said that muslim extremist aren't far-right (or they don't exist). That Vatican said abortion is worse than pedophilia, won't help your case.

No it won't help YOUR case, read again.

And it changes nothing regarding the number. Immigrants leave their countries and families seeking JOBS in Europe. WHY ?
 

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It seems that too few of us are willing to stand up and say "Yes, our free and liberal society IS worth preserving in the face of the onslaught it is facing. From far too many, all you hear is a form of cultural self-loathing.


.....and I'm so bored with it. Anyone with access to a world history book knows no race, no society, no civilization, no culture, anywhere, anytime, on the planet earth is completely innocent. We are no worse or no better than other culture.


[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_guilt"]wiki source[/ame]
.......Judith Katz, the author of White Awareness: Handbook for Anti-Racism Training, is highly critical of what she calls self-indulgent white guilt fixations. Her concerns about white guilt led her to move from black-white group encounters to all-white groups in her anti-racism training. She also avoided using non-white people to reeducate whites, she said, because she found that this led whites to focus on getting acceptance and forgiveness rather than changing their own actions or beliefs.[3]

Statements about racial inequality may be framed as either white privileges or black disadvantages. When framed as white privileges, a 2005 study found that the statements resulted in greater collective guilt and lower racism compared to a black disadvantage framing. The findings suggest that representing inequality in terms of outgroup disadvantage allows privileged group members to avoid the negative psychological implications of inequality and supports prejudicial attitudes.[4] .......
 

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Then, I take it, you don't have a problem with this.......:mrgreen:


source

No ability to answer what I wrote so just some mindless propaganda :thumbdown.
 

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And why are you spinning the subject ? I am talking about the far-right wing parties such as FN and BNP who's popularity rises at the same time as the numbers of immigrants . So before Europe ever becomes Muslim as some might fear, those parties will be popular enough to kick the butts of the Mulsims in Europe and the Jews with them. Do you realise that, or don't you ?

I would give double thanks for this one if allowed....and the Blacks and those turks and on and on. Only true blooded indiginous people left. God I am going to be lonely!! ;)
 

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No, you need to look at the numbers. Most muslims didn't come in 50-70s as cheap labour, except France. Most muslims came the last 10-20 years, and immigration have been increasing the last ten years. Quite drastically as well.

Well I don't know what country you come from but what you say is certainly not true about the UK. In the early 80's we had Muslims who had grown up here fighting with their families over their values and wanting to join in the society they were brought up on it's own merits. So what country do you come from that has only had Muslim immigrants for the last 10 or 20 years?

With us they came from the countries we had colonised and looted. We told them we were the Mother country. Most of them are now generations deep, just as British as any other immigrant of similar time here.
 
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Camlon

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Well I don't know what country you come from but what you say is certainly not true about the UK. In the early 80's we had Muslims who had grown up here fighting with their families over their values and wanting to join in the society they were brought up on it's own merits. So what country do you come from that has only had Muslim immigrants for the last 10 or 20 years?

With us they came from the countries we had colonised and looted. We told them we were the Mother country. Most of them are now generations deep, just as British as any other immigrant of similar time here.
First, I didn't say there was no immigration earlier, but earlier immigration haven't caused the high number of Muslims.

I would say it just as true in UK as other European countries. For instance
In 2004 the number of people who became naturalised British citizens rose to a record 140,795 - a 12% increase from the previous year, and a dramatic increase since 2000. Most new citizens came from Asia (40%) or Africa (32%); the largest three countries of origin were Pakistan, India and Somalia.[16] In 2005, an estimated 565,000 migrants arrived to live in the United Kingdom for at least a year, primarily from Asia and Africa,[17] while 380,000 people emigrated from the country for a year or more, chiefly to Australia, Spain and France.[18]
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Europe]Immigration to Europe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
And look here for more information. You will for instance find that many who came in the 50-70s were Indians.
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_Kingdom_since_1922]Immigration to the United Kingdom since 1922 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

I'm from Norway. Although Norwegians did take some immigrants in the 70s, most of them came the recent years. In Europe in general, this is also the case.
 
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No ability to answer what I wrote so just some mindless propaganda :thumbdown.

No propaganda. Just facts. May I assume you won't/can't answer my question concerning pertinent facts pointed out in the article? It relates directly to your generalization concerning muslims in europe.
 
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