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Over 59% of the Belgians support a ban on minarets

bub

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7s7 Islam - Six Belges sur dix souhaitent l'interdiction des minarets (1039467)

Nearly 60% of the Belgians would support a ban on minarets, according to a poll. That's more than the 57% of Swiss people who voted for the ban a few days ago.

In fact, if a referendum occured, there would probably even more people voting for a ban, since people are often reluctant to say that they support "non-PC" ideas, as the swiss referendum showed.

Young people are more tolerant than the older ones, and so are the women.

Nearly 57% would favor a ban on mosques, and 61% don't want a mosque in their neighborhood.


The fact that the (rich) Flemish are more tolerant (only 34% would totally support a ban on minarets) than the (poorer) Walloons (44% totally agree with a ban) seems to prove what I'd been saying in the Swiss thread: prosperous communities are more open and tolerant than declining communities.
 

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7s7 Islam - Six Belges sur dix souhaitent l'interdiction des minarets (1039467)

Nearly 60% of the Belgians would support a ban on minarets, according to a poll. That's more than the 57% of Swiss people who voted for the ban a few days ago.

In fact, if a referendum occured, there would probably even more people voting for a ban, since people are often reluctant to say that they support "non-PC" ideas, as the swiss referendum showed.

Young people are more tolerant than the older ones, and so are the women.

Nearly 57% would favor a ban on mosques, and 61% don't want a mosque in their neighborhood.


The fact that the (rich) Flemish are more tolerant (only 34% would totally support a ban on minarets) than the (poorer) Walloons (44% totally agree with a ban) seems to prove what I'd been saying in the Swiss thread: prosperous communities are more open and tolerant than declining communities.

Prosperous communities often are. However might this be a bit to do with education and those in the prosperous communities getting a better one.

Those who feel deprived often have poor education and it is only to easy for nationalists and the like to home in on this and give them some group to fear and hate, hence making their ambitions more achievable.
 

bub

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Prosperous communities often are. However might this be a bit to do with education and those in the prosperous communities getting a better one.

Those who feel deprived often have poor education and it is only to easy for nationalists and the like to home in on this and give them some group to fear and hate, hence making their ambitions more achievable.

Walloons are not nationalists (the extreme-right party "Front National" gets 2 or 3% in general) or particularly full of hate.

I think the medias play a big role (though that doesn't explain why less Flemish support the ban, since I guess the media said roughly the same things both in Flanders & in Wallonia)

1) everyone is hysterical with the economic crisis: every day you read articles about factories closing and unemployment rising, or about the debt being out of control

2) every week there is a scandal about immigrants (here are some of them)
- there was recently a massive regularization of illegal immigrants, while most people said the only effect of such regularization was making more illegals to come here => since they're unskilled, they're gonna be jobless and benefit from our social system, which is already sinking because of the crisis

- there are several scandals about this regularization (they got fake "jobs" and fake documents in order to fullfil the criteria and be allowed to stay)

- there is a scandal about the "anti-racist organization", which happens to act only when the racism is towards arabs (they say nothing when it is antisemite or anti-white racism), and they have links with radical islamists

- more than half of our prisoners are foreigners; every time you read about prisoners escaping or people stabbing people they have arab names. They are so many that we have to rent a prison in the Netherlands!! => costs even more

...

When people read that our debt is out of control, then when they hear that we have to rent a jail in a foreign country to host our foreign prisoners or that our social system is gonna have to fund thousands of newcomers who are jobless, they find an easy solution: less immigration. So every time we ask their advice about foreigners (or everything that symbolizes them, such as the ban on burqa, the ban on minaret, the entry of Turkey in the EU...) a majority of them is gonna reject them.
 

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I read that similar polls in other European countries showed a majority of people would vote for a ban too.

I'm starting to think that Oscar Freysinger, one of our right-wing UDC leaders here was right. There seems to be a clear chasm between the tolerant ideals of the political and intellectual "elite" and the way the average person on the street actually sees things.
 

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It has not much about tolerance but of fear. It happens always during times of troubles. Minorities are blamed for the ills of society and people would do anything to strike out and punish those minorities. It has happened through out history all over the world.

But it would be interesting to see such polls in the US, plus a similar poll everywhere that did not target minarets specifically but "religious towers" of all kinds.

And I would also love to see a poll here and in the US about kicking out Muslims of the country... bet that would get high favourable ratings too (not a majority though).
 

bub

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And I would also love to see a poll here and in the US about kicking out Muslims of the country... bet that would get high favourable ratings too (not a majority though).

Muslims are not enough in the USA to be considered as a real threat, except by really extremist people. Furthermore, the USA are more ethnically diverse than European countries, I guess that should make them more open to diversity.

If a minority had to be aimed by propaganda in the USA, it would be the Latinos. They're numerous and many Americans seem to think that there is an invasion of latino illegals.
 

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Muslims are not enough in the USA to be considered as a real threat, except by really extremist people. Furthermore, the USA are more ethnically diverse than European countries, I guess that should make them more open to diversity.

Doubt it. The "openness to diversity" in the US is a myth especially when it comes to hard times. The US is a melting pot, especially compared to Europe, but it is hardly open up to diversity as many would think. Alone that "he is a muslim" could be used against a black presidential candidate as a negative shows how little openness there actually is. Being a Muslim or different colour would rarely have any major media coverage if any in Europe for example.

But saying that we in Europe are no angels ourselves when it comes to openness to diversity, I in no way deny that, especially during hard times. We have blamed Jews, Romana, and many others for the harsh times and in the bad old days we hunted them down.

If a minority had to be aimed by propaganda in the USA, it would be the Latinos. They're numerous and many Americans seem to think that there is an invasion of latino illegals.

I agree, but Muslims are also targeted.
 

Apocalypse

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I lol at Europe.
 

bub

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I lol at Europe.

It's a protection measure against a community whose growing influence is seen as a cultural threat. Not so different from Israel preventing the return of Palestinians.
 

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It's a protection measure against a community whose growing influence is seen as a cultural threat. Not so different from Israel preventing the return of Palestinians.
Israelis do not support the ban on minarets.
Minarets do not change the demography.

I am all in favor for Europe maintaining its population's majority in comparison to the immigrants, but banning minarets is pretty much against the freedom of religion, isn't it?
 

bub

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Israelis do not support the ban on minarets.
Minarets do not change the demography.

I am all in favor for Europe maintaining its population's majority in comparison to the immigrants, but banning minarets is pretty much against the freedom of religion, isn't it?

Banning minarets is symbolic, you can be sure that the same proportion of people would support more restrictive immigration. But that would sound like the extreme-right, so instead they attack symbols (there are 4 minarets in Switzerland and 6 in Belgium).

And as PeteEU said, some people support these bans because of fear, rational or not.

There is another example of such fears in Belgium: there are more and more Frenchspeakers around Brussels (= in a Flemish area). They're also perceived as a threat to the Flemish identity (and it's true that many of them don't speak Dutch), so as a result the Flemish massively support parties who want to restrict the rights of these Frenchspeaking "immigrants" (and these rights are symbolic, it's about bilingual signs or bilingual electoral posters)
 

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Banning minarets is symbolic, you can be sure that the same proportion of people would support more restrictive immigration. But that would sound like the extreme-right, so instead they attack symbols (there are 4 minarets in Switzerland and 6 in Belgium).

And as PeteEU said, some people support these bans because of fear, rational or not.

There is another example of such fears in Belgium: there are more and more Frenchspeakers around Brussels (= in a Flemish area). They're also perceived as a threat to the Flemish identity (and it's true that many of them don't speak Dutch), so as a result the Flemish massively support parties who want to restrict the rights of these Frenchspeaking "immigrants" (and these rights are symbolic, it's about bilingual signs or bilingual electoral posters)
If that's the direction Europe takes, so be it, their nation their rules.

It would have been, however, more wise and less radical to limit the minarets, instead of banning them altogether.
Limiting the minarets could be justified with the claim to maintain the European culture and prevent a dominance of an Islamic culture on European soil.

Banning the minarets cannot really be justified, as it goes directly against the essence of the freedom of religion.
 

bub

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Banning the minarets cannot really be justified, as it goes directly against the essence of the freedom of religion.

Why? Mosques are not forbidden, and no one said a thing in this poll against praying Allah. Furthermore, as I said, minarets are not a religious thing (the Koran does not mention it), the proof is that most mosques don't even have a minaret!
 

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If that's the direction Europe takes, so be it, their nation their rules.

It would have been, however, more wise and less radical to limit the minarets, instead of banning them altogether.
Limiting the minarets could be justified with the claim to maintain the European culture and prevent a dominance of an Islamic culture on European soil.

Banning the minarets cannot really be justified, as it goes directly against the essence of the freedom of religion.

Well, they're building a new mosque in Rotterdam with 100 meter high minarets. Beside the detonation to its modern surroundings, it was funded by Saudi Arabia in their effort to promote wahhabism in Europe.
Now, I'll agree with you that this policy is foolish and pointless, but I question if it goes against the freedom religion. To me the freedom of religion is a formal freedom, not to be materialised. There are people who believe you are required to have your little girl circumcised, freedom of religion or not, we do not allow it. You have to draw the line somewhere.

I hope you'll find europe's islamisation as amusing as its failure to deal with it.
 

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The Swiss minaret affair, as well as the popular support for a similar ban in other countries, demonstrates that democracy needs to be limited by bills of rights and international conventions if it is not to degenerate into the majority bullying the minority.

Besides minaret bans would likely be against the constitutions of most European countries. The Swiss constitutions guarantees freedom of religion as well as it prohibits discrimination and arbitrary treatment. So does the European Convention on Human Rights. I seriously doubt that the Swiss minaret ban will prevent one single minaret from being built.

It is true that fascist tendencies like the ones expressed in the Swiss minaret ban are most common among those at the bottom of society. They are expressing their justified anger over the way their security and way of life is disappearing by bashing on an easily identified scapegoat; Muslims, homosexuals, Jews or whatever else you can conjure up.

However even if they got rid of the scapegoat - in casu the Muslims - they would not be better off. Their way of life would still be disappearing, their standard of living would still be declining, their feeling of security would still be low. That is because the hardship of the uneducated people are not created by minorities - their hardship is created by an economic system that has decided that they are not useful anymore and that their culture is not competitive enough.

The buildings they should turn their anger at is the glass office towers of banks and corporations - the minarets of capitalism. Only by doing so can they improve their conditions.
 

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I see the Belgians and Swiss as striking a symbolic blow against the excessive accomidations their governments make in regards to an extremely illiberal minority refusing to adopt their liberal customs. Now, this might be a misplaced expression of anger, and due to people's inability to understand certain concepts, such a desire to preserve their liberal ways is somehow seen as "right wing", I think people have a genuine and very legitimate concern here that the way of life they have developed is under attack by those who have moved into their space, but want nothing to do with their way of life.

I think they are making a statement against the stupidity of multiculturalism, and for a melting pot approach to immigration. They may be jousting at the wrong windmill, but they probably feel powerless in the face of the increasing Islamization of Europe, and are striking where they can.
 

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It has not much about tolerance but of fear. It happens always during times of troubles. Minorities are blamed for the ills of society and people would do anything to strike out and punish those minorities. It has happened through out history all over the world.

But it would be interesting to see such polls in the US, plus a similar poll everywhere that did not target minarets specifically but "religious towers" of all kinds.

And I would also love to see a poll here and in the US about kicking out Muslims of the country... bet that would get high favourable ratings too (not a majority though).

I'd like to see that as well, I believe the % would be higher than you think....;)
BUB said:
If a minority had to be aimed by propaganda in the USA, it would be the Latinos. They're numerous and many Americans seem to think that there is an invasion of latino illegals.
There is an invasion of illegal latinos, the west coast is being over run....
The evidence is the bilingual signage you see in many places of business...;)
gardener said:
I see the Belgians and Swiss as striking a symbolic blow against the excessive accomidations their governments make in regards to an extremely illiberal minority refusing to adopt their liberal customs. Now, this might be a misplaced expression of anger, and due to people's inability to understand certain concepts, such a desire to preserve their liberal ways is somehow seen as "right wing", I think people have a genuine and very legitimate concern here that the way of life they have developed is under attack by those who have moved into their space, but want nothing to do with their way of life.

I think they are making a statement against the stupidity of multiculturalism, and for a melting pot approach to immigration. They may be jousting at the wrong windmill, but they probably feel powerless in the face of the increasing Islamization of Europe, and are striking where they can.
When you have bugs, you get out the bug spray.....;)
 
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Things are different now. I believe its more or less factual that Muslim birth rates have reached such high levels in Europe that the indigneous population have no chance of jumping back. A fith of the European Union will be Muslim by 2050 and statistics show France will be an Islamic Republic within the next 100 years. Such news can be frightful to many Europeans, which is understandable, and naturally such fear of Islamic birth rates gives rise to racist sentiments. I for one appreciate the base cultural values which forms the freeworld, something you'd be very hard pressed to find in Islam.
 

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Why? Mosques are not forbidden, and no one said a thing in this poll against praying Allah. Furthermore, as I said, minarets are not a religious thing (the Koran does not mention it), the proof is that most mosques don't even have a minaret!

This is purely factual.
If you go Istanbul for example, only the Ottoman era mosque's have minarets.
 

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Things are different now. I believe its more or less factual that Muslim birth rates have reached such high levels in Europe that the indigneous population have no chance of jumping back. A fith of the European Union will be Muslim by 2050 and statistics show France will be an Islamic Republic within the next 100 years. Such news can be frightful to many Europeans, which is understandable, and naturally such fear of Islamic birth rates gives rise to racist sentiments. I for one appreciate the base cultural values which forms the freeworld, something you'd be very hard pressed to find in Islam.

And you should stop reading American inspired right wing studies who's only goal is to create conflict where there is non.

yes the muslim birth rate in Europe is higher, but it is declining. In the 30 years of major Muslim immigration in Europe the birth rate has gone down dramatically. Heck even in Turkey, the birth rate is not even meeting replacement rate last I looked. Why? because Muslim women are getting educated and understand their only goal in life is not to have 10 children.

So having studies saying in 50 years Europe will be everything from Muslim majority to even having individual countries having a muslim majority always does not take into consideration the falling brithrate among Muslim women for every generation.. Why does it not take it into consideration.. because it would not fit into their fear mongering.
 

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This is purely factual.
If you go Istanbul for example, only the Ottoman era mosque's have minarets.

Yea look at the Hagia Sofia! it has .. never mind that was a church :)
 

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it was funded by Saudi Arabia in their effort to promote wahhabism in Europe.

Wahhabism is something to watch out for. In the UK the people I have found pointing this out are Muslims themselves.
 

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And you should stop reading American inspired right wing studies who's only goal is to create conflict where there is non.

Actually most of this stuff is European right wing studies. What do the Americans care? :S

yes the muslim birth rate in Europe is higher, but it is declining. In the 30 years of major Muslim immigration in Europe the birth rate has gone down dramatically. Heck even in Turkey, the birth rate is not even meeting replacement rate last I looked. Why? because Muslim women are getting educated and understand their only goal in life is not to have 10 children.

That is true, but it doesnt change anything. Muslim birthrates are far higher than non-Muslim birthrates and that will certainly lead to a massive Muslim population in Europe, not to mention non-European birthrates are still declining.

So having studies saying in 50 years Europe will be everything from Muslim majority to even having individual countries having a muslim majority always does not take into consideration the falling brithrate among Muslim women for every generation.. Why does it not take it into consideration.. because it would not fit into their fear mongering.

Perhaps it doesnt take into consideration future European Muslim immigration, who remain relatively uneducated and conservative compared to their European Muslim counterparts.
 

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Actually most of this stuff is European right wing studies. What do the Americans care? :S

Very much it seems since they gobble it up often and more than often are financing the studies. Not to mention quite a few of the authors are Europeans living in the US...

And as you know they have a vested interest in creating controversy as they cant exist without having an "enemy" of some sort.

That is true, but it doesnt change anything. Muslim birthrates are far higher than non-Muslim birthrates and that will certainly lead to a massive Muslim population in Europe, not to mention non-European birthrates are still declining.

Far higher? That is my problem with these studies.. based on what? There are very few reliable studies out there where birth rates are quantified by religion.. you know why? Because it is illegal in almost every country to quantify anyone based on religion.

On top of that all the reliable studies I have seen have shown a marked decline in birth rates among immigrant women the further in generations they go. That means yes first generation have higher birth rates, but second and 3rd generation have considerable lower (by A LOT) birth rates.

The trends match very much how birth rates declined in Christian countries when women were emancipated. In Spain the birth under Franco was high, because he had a police of many children for all and kept women out of the work place and schooling system. Their sole job was to have children. After Franco and in democracy, the birth rate has declined dramatically generation from generation, decade per decade. The same thing will happen to Muslim immigrants in Europe, just as it has happened in Turkey.

Perhaps it doesnt take into consideration future European Muslim immigration, who remain relatively uneducated and conservative compared to their European Muslim counterparts.

What future muslim immigration? you do know that it is damn hard to immigrate to Europe these days right? That to get into Europe you often need to show skills that can contribute to Europe? Of course there is the illegal immigration, but you are not talking about that are you?
 

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7s7 Islam - Six Belges sur dix souhaitent l'interdiction des minarets (1039467)

Nearly 60% of the Belgians would support a ban on minarets, according to a poll. That's more than the 57% of Swiss people who voted for the ban a few days ago.

In fact, if a referendum occured, there would probably even more people voting for a ban, since people are often reluctant to say that they support "non-PC" ideas, as the swiss referendum showed.

Young people are more tolerant than the older ones, and so are the women.

Nearly 57% would favor a ban on mosques, and 61% don't want a mosque in their neighborhood.


The fact that the (rich) Flemish are more tolerant (only 34% would totally support a ban on minarets) than the (poorer) Walloons (44% totally agree with a ban) seems to prove what I'd been saying in the Swiss thread: prosperous communities are more open and tolerant than declining communities.
Why should anyone be "tolerant" of a violent cult that oppresses women and promotes hatred and religious insanity? Good for Europe for wanting cult religions like these Islamists out of their country. If they love Sharia law so much, they're free to keep there degeneracy confined to the middle East.

Maybe the fact that Europe is more culturally enlightened than the US, and they're willing to stand up to cults while we're not should tell you something. "Tolerance" isn't the issue. And "tolerance of intolerance" isn't "tolerance" by any real definition.
 
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