Over 59% of the Belgians support a ban on minarets

[kaya'08]

Very much it seems since they gobble it up often and more than often are financing the studies. Not to mention quite a few of the authors are Europeans living in the US...

And as you know they have a vested interest in creating controversy as they cant exist without having an "enemy" of some sort.

Point of the matter is, its mainly European right wing sources, which do take factual information (low european birthrates, high Muslim birth rates) but blow the scenario out of proportion and make out Christianity as we know it is over. I dont see why you would drag Americans into this.

Far higher? That is my problem with these studies.. based on what? There are very few reliable studies out there where birth rates are quantified by religion.. you know why? Because it is illegal in almost every country to quantify anyone based on religion.

Well more accurately citizens are not required to state their religion when entering Europe. Its irrelevant. Obviously this makes statistics harder to obtain, but prediction can be made from accurate studies.

Don Melvin writes that, excluding Russia, Europe's Muslim population will double by 2020. He also says that in 2005, almost 85% of Europe's total population growth in 2005 was due to immigration in general.[18][20] Omer Taspinar predicts that the Muslim population of Europe will nearly double by 2015, while the non-Muslim will shrink by 3.5%, due to the higher Muslim birth rate.[21] Esther Pan predicts that, by 2050, one in five Europeans will likely be Muslim.[

Islam in Europe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Of course, at the same time:

Other analysts are skeptical about the given forecast and the accuracy of the claimed Muslim population growth, since sharp decrease in Muslim fertility rates[24] and the limiting of immigrants coming in to Europe, which will lead to Muslim population increasing slowly in the coming years to eventually stagnation and decline. Others point to overestimated number and exaggeration of the Muslim growth rate.

However one only has to look at the ageing population of Europe to realize this is as a result of collapsing European birth rates hence the reliance of foriegn, young labour within the EU. Of course the future may be very different from the status quo, but again, all we can do is wait and see. Though regardless, such large Muslim populations will have a profound affect on Europe, and most possibly negative at that.

On top of that all the reliable studies I have seen have shown a marked decline in birth rates among immigrant women the further in generations they go. That means yes first generation have higher birth rates, but second and 3rd generation have considerable lower (by A LOT) birth rates.

I know that, but it is still higher than the native birth rate. But forget this part.

The trends match very much how birth rates declined in Christian countries when women were emancipated. In Spain the birth under Franco was high, because he had a police of many children for all and kept women out of the work place and schooling system. Their sole job was to have children. After Franco and in democracy, the birth rate has declined dramatically generation from generation, decade per decade. The same thing will happen to Muslim immigrants in Europe, just as it has happened in Turkey.

It will happen globally, no doubt, even in Turkey unless Europe takes steps to change this. Religious traditions aside - with an increasing industrial base worldwide, and the need for more and more labour and a dynamic workforce, the prospect of keeping women out of the workplace is actually becoming unrealistic.

What future muslim immigration? you do know that it is damn hard to immigrate to Europe these days right? That to get into Europe you often need to show skills that can contribute to Europe? Of course there is the illegal immigration, but you are not talking about that are you?

No im not. Pete, come on. Muslim immigration to Europe is high, it doesnt matter how hard you make it out to be (to get into Europe), there is no changing the statistics.

 

[mikeey]

We here in the west dont want that rubbish and never will, stick the


minarets up there Jumpers and send them home.


mikeey.

 

[MyOwnDrum]

Muslims are not enough in the USA to be considered as a real threat, except by really extremist people. Furthermore, the USA are more ethnically diverse than European countries, I guess that should make them more open to diversity.

If a minority had to be aimed by propaganda in the USA, it would be the Latinos. They're numerous and many Americans seem to think that there is an invasion of latino illegals.

There is an invasion of Spanish speaking people, many illegally. They are not, however, fundamentally at odds with our culture. They attend Christian churches and are a baptized people. They don't belong to a religion that is basically at odds with Western values of Democracy.

 

[MyOwnDrum]

Why should anyone be "tolerant" of a violent cult that oppresses women and promotes hatred and religious insanity? Good for Europe for wanting cult religions like these Islamists out of their country. If they love Sharia law so much, they're free to keep there degeneracy confined to the middle East.

Maybe the fact that Europe is more culturally enlightened than the US, and they're willing to stand up to cults while we're not should tell you something. "Tolerance" isn't the issue. And "tolerance of intolerance" isn't "tolerance" by any real definition.

I think Europe is beginning to wake up to this realities with the demographic shift. I think in the next decade we will see more of this. The cultural gulf is just too wide.

 

[Djoop]

Wahhabism is something to watch out for. In the UK the people I have found pointing this out are Muslims themselves.

Same here Alexa, the question is if anybody will listen to what they have to say.

 

[Dutch]

I read that similar polls in other European countries showed a majority of people would vote for a ban too.

I'm starting to think that Oscar Freysinger, one of our right-wing UDC leaders here was right. There seems to be a clear chasm between the tolerant ideals of the political and intellectual "elite" and the way the average person on the street actually sees things.

I have no idea who oscar freysinger is but I've had a sneeking suspicion for quite some time that was occuring. The european anti-hate speech laws are only stifling debate. They aren't changing minds. Just how long can/will this state of affairs be allowed to continue?

 

[Dutch]

Things are different now. I believe its more or less factual that Muslim birth rates have reached such high levels in Europe that the indigneous population have no chance of jumping back. A fith of the European Union will be Muslim by 2050 and statistics show France will be an Islamic Republic within the next 100 years. Such news can be frightful to many Europeans, which is understandable, and naturally such fear of Islamic birth rates gives rise to racist sentiments. I for one appreciate the base cultural values which forms the freeworld, something you'd be very hard pressed to find in Islam.

Yes, but isn't it ironic that those very values and that very culture will die simply because it is unsustainable. Modern western culture has proven miserable at; producing children and raising them in such a way as to sustain their culture. Western culture, for all it's splender.....comes with an expiration date. For europe it's sometime in this century. It's about the same here in america. Pity.

 

[Dutch]

There is an invasion of Spanish speaking people, many illegally. They are not, however, fundamentally at odds with our culture. They attend Christian churches and are a baptized people. They don't belong to a religion that is basically at odds with Western values of Democracy.

tho they do represent a traditional culture fundamentally at odds with ours and are extremely reluctant to assimilate. None of this would be a problem except they represent failed societies that seem to want to continue their ways here. It's becoming obvious to all except america's leaders they are changing the us more than the us is changing them. Anyone whose been within a hundred miles of mexico knows that's not a good thing.

 

[kaya'08]

Yes, but isn't it ironic that those very values and that very culture will die simply because it is unsustainable. Modern western culture has proven miserable at; producing children and raising them in such a way as to sustain their culture. Western culture, for all it's splender.....comes with an expiration date. For europe it's sometime in this century. It's about the same here in america. Pity.

Unsustainable? No. Its the 21st century approach to Westernism which has made it unsustainable, not the ideology itself. This approach would be reliance and concentration on foreign labour. For example the government is doing very little to promote birth rates and is instead taking the easier, and cheaper alternative, that being foreign work forces. If they could push for better policies in this field which would reverse diminishing birth rates, without compromising growth, it need not be unsustainable. Its that, or we find a way to get the woman out of the workplace, diminish rights and reverse our growth.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

Israelis do not support the ban on minarets.
Minarets do not change the demography.

I am all in favor for Europe maintaining its population's majority in comparison to the immigrants, but banning minarets is pretty much against the freedom of religion, isn't it?

Maybe there should not be freedom of religion in a Christian society with Christian values, where the second biggest religion just have no compatibility with those Christian values.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

Well, they're building a new mosque in Rotterdam with 100 meter high minarets. Beside the detonation to its modern surroundings, it was funded by Saudi Arabia in their effort to promote wahhabism in Europe.
Now, I'll agree with you that this policy is foolish and pointless, but I question if it goes against the freedom religion. To me the freedom of religion is a formal freedom, not to be materialised. There are people who believe you are required to have your little girl circumcised, freedom of religion or not, we do not allow it. You have to draw the line somewhere.

I hope you'll find europe's islamisation as amusing as its failure to deal with it.

Its funny until extremists use explosives or similar things to burn down those same minarets 20 years from now, or perhaps just 2 years.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

Actually most of this stuff is European right wing studies. What do the Americans care? :S



That is true, but it doesnt change anything. Muslim birthrates are far higher than non-Muslim birthrates and that will certainly lead to a massive Muslim population in Europe, not to mention non-European birthrates are still declining.



Perhaps it doesnt take into consideration future European Muslim immigration, who remain relatively uneducated and conservative compared to their European Muslim counterparts.

Your mathematics is flawed.

 

[kaya'08]

Your mathematics is flawed.

Really? Please, elaborate.

 

[Dutch]

Unsustainable? No. Its the 21st century approach to Westernism which has made it unsustainable, not the ideology itself. This approach would be reliance and concentration on foreign labour. For example the government is doing very little to promote birth rates and is instead taking the easier, and cheaper alternative, that being foreign work forces. If they could push for better policies in this field which would reverse diminishing birth rates, without compromising growth, it need not be unsustainable. Its that, or we find a way to get the woman out of the workplace, diminish rights and reverse our growth.

This is the problem. The german government has followed that route. They have not been able to produce the policies to counteract the decline in their birth rates. For that you need a functioning culture, one that puts value on children and family. We no longer possess that.

 

[PeteEU]

Really? Please, elaborate.

For one, most European birth rates (native) is climbing.

Secondly, most "muslim" birth rates in Europe are declining, especially the further in generations you go.

 

[Dutch]

For one, most European birth rates (native) is climbing.

Please provide a source for this assertion.

Secondly, most "muslim" birth rates in Europe are declining, especially the further in generations you go.

Meaning importing more in the future to ensure a work force. Not much to place your hopes on.

 

[kaya'08]

This is the problem. The german government has followed that route. They have not been able to produce the policies to counteract the decline in their birth rates. For that you need a functioning culture, one that puts value on children and family. We no longer possess that.

I agree completely.

 

[kaya'08]

For one, most European birth rates (native) is climbing.

Thats untrue.

Read: European Birth Rate Declines - CBS News

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/magazine/29Birth-t.html

Europe shrinking as birthrates decline - Times Online

Secondly, most "muslim" birth rates in Europe are declining, especially the further in generations you go.

I know they are, but they are still very high and there is no saying when it will come down to native standards, and by that time, what will the size of the Muslim population be like?

Honestly? The idea of a Muslim dominated Europe terrifies me. I hope for the sake of my "continentmen" so to speak that we never see the day, and that my children never see the day and so fourth. Not for racist reasons, not to be mistaken for that, but because i believe we are unique in our societal and political ways in part due to our core cultural values that again, we cannot find in the Islamic world.

 

[PeteEU]

Thats untrue.

Read: European Birth Rate Declines - CBS News

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/magazine/29Birth-t.html

Europe shrinking as birthrates decline - Times Online

And? I dont deny that fertility rates in Europe are crap, but that does not change the fact that some are rising In fact the population growth in the EU is positive..

Like it or not the fertility rate in many European countries has risen, where some have stayed the same and others have fallen. I really depends on the country. Yes the fertility rate is under 2 for almost all European countries but it is rising in some countries. Norway for example has risen over the last decade, as has the UK, Denmark, Spain and so on. But it has fallen dramatically in the East, but is rising again.

But that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about that Muslim women have so many babies that with in 2 generations they will be a majority in some countries or a huge minority in others. Sorry but the math does not add up.

BBC NEWS | Programmes | More Or Less | Disproving the Muslim Demographics sums

This a debunking of a famous video by the "anti-Muslim" groups that is often promoted by the US right in their never ending attacks against Europe.

I know they are, but they are still very high and there is no saying when it will come down to native standards, and by that time, what will the size of the Muslim population be like?

3 to 4 generations. I believe that the 3rd generation Muslim women get around 2 kids on average, and that will fall in the 4th generation. And as I have stated, the birth rate/fertility rate among "native" Europeans is also rising.

And that is my problem with these so called studies. Non of the take into account a declining birthrate among 2nd+ generation Muslim women in Europe., nor a rising among "natives". They are all doom and gloom predicting a Muslim take over by 2050 often.

Honestly? The idea of a Muslim dominated Europe terrifies me. I hope for the sake of my "continentmen" so to speak that we never see the day, and that my children never see the day and so fourth. Not for racist reasons, not to be mistaken for that, but because i believe we are unique in our societal and political ways in part due to our core cultural values that again, we cannot find in the Islamic world.

Yea but when will this "Muslim dominated" Europe happen? According to the doomsayers by 2050.. which is impossible unless we start killing off our native population. It is nothing but fearmongering pure and simple. Statistics like this is used by the right (BNP, Front National) to scare the living daylights out of people and make them vote for them. They more than often have no basis in reality what so ever. It will take centuries (baring war and famine) for "muslims" to take over Europe. I cant even name a country that is remotely close to be "taken over" in Europe. The most a country has of a Muslim population is around 6ish% in France if we dont count the Muslim European countries of Turkey, Bosnia and Albania of course It is gonna take a catastrophic population change as in massive deaths among non muslims (only), mass conversions and a huge birth rate like never seen on planet earth for France to even get up to 30% let alone a majority Muslim population.

 

[kaya'08]

And? I dont deny that fertility rates in Europe are crap, but that does not change the fact that some are rising In fact the population growth in the EU is positive..

Of course its rising. You cant accept tens of thousands of Muslims and Africans on a banana boat annually and expect it to decrease.

Like it or not the fertility rate in many European countries has risen, where some have stayed the same and others have fallen. I really depends on the country.

If we are talking about the ingenious populations of some EU countries, it may be possible, but its not large or positive enough to say native birth rates are on the rise as a whole when the total opposite is true.

Yes the fertility rate is under 2 for almost all European countries but it is rising in some countries. Norway for example has risen over the last decade, as has the UK, Denmark, Spain and so on. But it has fallen dramatically in the East, but is rising again.

No it isnt :s

But that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about that Muslim women have so many babies that with in 2 generations they will be a majority in some countries or a huge minority in others. Sorry but the math does not add up.

I don't believe that. I simply stated what other racist sources have said - i didn't state my opinion or what i said. I don't believe its possible either, i do believe however that it is more than feasible for them to be a massive minority in Europe and that too is a danger.

BBC NEWS | Programmes | More Or Less | Disproving the Muslim Demographics sums

This a debunking of a famous video by the "anti-Muslim" groups that is often promoted by the US right in their never ending attacks against Europe.

US right?????

3 to 4 generations. I believe that the 3rd generation Muslim women get around 2 kids on average, and that will fall in the 4th generation. And as I have stated, the birth rate/fertility rate among "native" Europeans is also rising.

No it isn't Ive already provided sources to disprove this.

And that is my problem with these so called studies. Non of the take into account a declining birthrate among 2nd+ generation Muslim women in Europe., nor a rising among "natives". They are all doom and gloom predicting a Muslim take over by 2050 often.

These studies are factual MOST being conducted by legit sources. They dont comment on native birth rates because its damn falling, and the Muslim birth rates are falling your right - but they are still much higher than the native ones and its going to take a massive population increase on their part before the gap is narrowed.

Yea but when will this "Muslim dominated" Europe happen? According to the doomsayers by 2050.. which is impossible unless we start killing off our native population. It is nothing but fearmongering pure and simple. Statistics like this is used by the right (BNP, Front National) to scare the living daylights out of people and make them vote for them. They more than often have no basis in reality what so ever. It will take centuries (baring war and famine) for "muslims" to take over Europe. I cant even name a country that is remotely close to be "taken over" in Europe. The most a country has of a Muslim population is around 6ish% in France if we dont count the Muslim European countries of Turkey, Bosnia and Albania of course It is gonna take a catastrophic population change as in massive deaths among non muslims (only), mass conversions and a huge birth rate like never seen on planet earth for France to even get up to 30% let alone a majority Muslim population.

I didn't say it would happen all i said is i hope i don't ever see such a thing or my children and children's children. :mrgreen:

 

[PeteEU]

Of course its rising. You cant accept tens of thousands of Muslims and Africans on a banana boat annually and expect it to decrease.

Which we dont. Illegals are not part of this discussion since they are here illegally.

If we are talking about the ingenious populations of some EU countries, it may be possible, but its not large or positive enough to say native birth rates are on the rise as a whole when the total opposite is true.

But the EU is not a country, nor is Europe, so yes you need to look at each country.

No it isnt :s

No it isnt what?

I don't believe that. I simply stated what other racist sources have said - i didn't state my opinion or what i said. I don't believe its possible either, i do believe however that it is more than feasible for them to be a massive minority in Europe and that too is a danger.

Okay. As for "massive".. guess what you define as massive. As long as the Muslim population aint over 6% then it will take many many generations to even get near "massive" .

Also remember, we have very little immigration to Europe now days, especially from the Muslim world. You need to have a skill that is needed in most countries to be allowed to immigrate there.

US right?????

Yea, look at where many of the so called studies either originate from or are financed by. I know it sounds paranoid, but that is my experience from reading a majority of the articles and reports. Its either an American think tank (CATO and so on) with a grudge, or an European working in the US for a US organisation. And when there is finally one published by someone in Europe that gets attention then more than often it is by far right personalities or people linked to the far right...

No it isn't Ive already provided sources to disprove this.

Do Muslims Have More Children Than Other Women in Western Europe? - Population Reference Bureau

Historically birth rates have declined with women's emancipation that is a fact. Historically birth rates have declined when religion has become less and less important in the society you live in.. that is a fact. The more free a country is (especially for women) the lower the birth rate up to a point. That is a fact.

These studies are factual MOST being conducted by legit sources. They dont comment on native birth rates because its damn falling, and the Muslim birth rates are falling your right - but they are still much higher than the native ones and its going to take a massive population increase on their part before the gap is narrowed.

The gap has narrowed considerably already and will continue to narrow as my link proves.

I didn't say it would happen all i said is i hope i don't ever see such a thing or my children and children's children. :mrgreen:

You wont..

 

[kaya'08]

Which we dont. Illegals are not part of this discussion since they are here illegally.

Even though the EU is spreading pressure left, right and centre to give them citizenship as if thats the cure for illegal immigration.

But the EU is not a country, nor is Europe, so yes you need to look at each country.

We are talking about birth rates in Europe which as a whole is falling.

Also remember, we have very little immigration to Europe now days, especially from the Muslim world. You need to have a skill that is needed in most countries to be allowed to immigrate there

.

FT.com / Brussels - EU told to accept 20m migrant workers

Then you might find this interesting.

Do Muslims Have More Children Than Other Women in Western Europe? - Population Reference Bureau

Historically birth rates have declined with women's emancipation that is a fact. Historically birth rates have declined when religion has become less and less important in the society you live in.. that is a fact. The more free a country is (especially for women) the lower the birth rate up to a point. That is a fact.

Nobody is denying this.

The gap has narrowed considerably already and will continue to narrow as my link proves.

That doesnt change what i said.

 

[PeteEU]

Even though the EU is spreading pressure left, right and centre to give them citizenship as if thats the cure for illegal immigration.

Not really. I know the right wants people to believe that, but it aint true. Most illegals, who are caught are kicked back home. The problem comes when that home is in a war zone..

We are talking about birth rates in Europe which as a whole is falling.

I disagree. Some countries yes, others no. Over all there is a slight rise.

FT.com / Brussels - EU told to accept 20m migrant workers

Then you might find this interesting.

And? It does nothing to disprove anything I have stated.. in fact the opposite. That EU commissioner can say what he wants, does not change the EU commissioner has no power to enact anything along those lines. Plus he aint a commissioner any more, but the Italian Foreign minister and if any country has flipped 180 degrees on immigration policy it is Italy.

Nobody is denying this.

Seemed to me you were :rofl....

That doesnt change what i said.

Well, you said it was growing, and it aint.

 

[mikhail]

Yea more morons are having children in european countries but the same time there is more muslim immigrants what a **** storm.

 

[alexa]

Same here Alexa, the question is if anybody will listen to what they have to say.

Oh I think people know. Of course we and most Muslims want nothing to do with that just like they want nothing to do with terrorism.

It's a multi faceted problem and I think that is why it can be difficult to deal with.

Here is the UK we had people from Pakistan suffering perrinial racism which had nothing to do with them being Muslim and indeed before 9/11 many of them were not.

Most people who arrived here from the '60's to the 80's or 90's encouraged their kids to integrate...but the racism did not see that. Many had given up their religion...and then we had 9/11 and this resulted in 670 attacks on muslims and property within a period of two weeks followed by harrassment and name calling and more attacks - so they almost all became visibly Muslim, wearing Muslim dress and demanding Muslim rights and returning to their religion, a thing which some of them knew nothing about.

I know about the cruelty and the extent of the racism these people went through because my daughter kept me informed of the taunts they experienced daily at school because of where their parents came from. It does not surprise me they were angry.

Many of these angry people of Muslim descent but not practising were the very ones who were prone to both Wahhabism and terrorism.

Every thing was shaken up.

However we have seen another change in the UK. When Islamists went on a march wanting Sharia for the UK they found very few people there and another Muslim march against Sharia,

When Wilbur at last arrived they only managed to get 40 people to shout and blow for his murder as other Muslims could see what was going on and that they were being manipulated.

Both Nationalists and Islamists want the general public to hate Muslims for different reasons.

We simply need to get some sanity back and realise that most Muslims are just like the rest of society they come in every shade of charactor and they will themselves work to sort things out when we also accept them.

I am half Irish and began my life as a Roman Catholic but not once did one person accuse me of the IRA bombings. I will feel sanity has resumed when I see this same behaviour being extended to our Muslims communites.