Over 59% of the Belgians support a ban on minarets

[Djoop]

Strange enough some of the most educated and upper class French happen to be quite racist.

You present it as a fact, but in fact it's only your opinion. An opinion I don't happen to share. I don't believ the 'Le Pen' crowd exceeds 20% of the population, and it's not exactly the most educated part.

This remark was totally uncalled for. When Muslims are not in their country, they don't have the upper hand. When I say all diaspora communities anywhere in the world help each other, I know what I'm talking about. Please do take a look at diaspora communities in general.

Assuming that's their only identity. I believe people like Tariq Ramadan who claim to have multiple identities. In his case he's a swiss muslim. Diaspora is a term used for the jewish exile. There are many muslim countries, so the term is uncalled for, unless you'd like to be part of the 'anti-zionist' crowd. I don't wish to lower myself to this nonsensical rubbish.

There are also reasons why some people do not wish to hire muslim immigrants. Whether you agree with the reasoning or not, it remains discrimination. This works both ways, you can't blame one party and condone another for the same practise. That's hypocrite in my view.

By continueing the efforts to help the existing immigrants to integrate into the society and by rich nations helping them to get a better life in their home countries of origine.

My preference is with the latter, I think most people rather receive help in the place they feel at home.

It is not the court system, it is a situation as a whole that ends up getting out of hand and painting the whole immigrant community with the same brush. I already said in the next post that the minority of immigrants who are acting in an unexusable way are also not helping the situation of the rest of the community. Both the French and the trouble makers are responsible for the situation today. But what brought us to this situation is the behaviour of the French toward them in the beginning. They colonised their country, then they brought them here as cheap labour and then treated them like crap.

Great, you found someone to blame. I wish you good luck trying to right the wrongs of history. I don't share your conclusion, especially the underlined part. I hope we'll meet eachother finding solutions for these problems, after reading the links you posted, I do agree with you that there is a problem in France.

 

[Mira]

I was hoping to have a civil discussion with you, but since you have decided to do otherwise, I will kindly decline to have any furthur discussions with you on the subject.

Take care

You present it as a fact, but in fact it's only your opinion. An opinion I don't happen to share. I don't believ the 'Le Pen' crowd exceeds 20% of the population, and it's not exactly the most educated part.


Assuming that's their only identity. I believe people like Tariq Ramadan who claim to have multiple identities. In his case he's a swiss muslim. Diaspora is a term used for the jewish exile. There are many muslim countries, so the term is uncalled for, unless you'd like to be part of the 'anti-zionist' crowd. I don't wish to lower myself to this nonsensical rubbish.

There are also reasons why some people do not wish to hire muslim immigrants. Whether you agree with the reasoning or not, it remains discrimination. This works both ways, you can't blame one party and condone another for the same practise. That's hypocrite in my view.


My preference is with the latter, I think most people rather receive help in the place they feel at home.


Great, you found someone to blame. I wish you good luck trying to right the wrongs of history. I don't share your conclusion, especially the underlined part. I hope we'll meet eachother finding solutions for these problems, after reading the links you posted, I do agree with you that there is a problem in France.

 

[Camlon]

I was hoping to have a civil discussion with you, but since you have decided to do otherwise, I will kindly decline to have any furthur discussions with you on the subject.

Take care

You are just making a bad excuse for not debating against him any more. He kept the discussion civil.

 

[Mira]

You are just making a bad excuse for not debating against him any more. He kept the discussion civil.

No, I don't play that kind of games.

If you consider sentnses such as "unless you'd like to be part of the 'anti-zionist' crowd. I don't wish to lower myself to this nonsensical rubbish". " "That's hypocrite in my view." "I wish you good luck trying to right the wrongs of history" civil, then I'm afraid that you and I do not share the same values.

 

[Djoop]

I was hoping to have a civil discussion with you, but since you have decided to do otherwise, I will kindly decline to have any furthur discussions with you on the subject.
Take care

I respect your decision but it’s your responsability. Throwing assertions around means little without reasoning. Like saying someone makes uncivil comments without explaining why you find it uncivil.

unless you'd like to be part of the 'anti-zionist' crowd. I don't wish to lower myself to this nonsensical rubbish
An uncivil comment? I hope you’re aware that there are Islamists who love to misuse jewish terms.

That's hypocrite in my view.
I don’t see how that’s uncivil either. It would be different if I would have said “You are a hypocrite”. I didn’t, I just gave my opinion in a civil manner. I also explained why I believe it’s hypocrite to make it even more civil.

I wish you good luck trying to right the wrongs of history.
This is just another way of saying that there are lots of historic injustices. I'm sorry if my style offended you, that wasn’t my intention.

 

[Mira]

Thank you, I accept your apology.

You present it as a fact, but in fact it's only your opinion. An opinion I don't happen to share. I don't believ the 'Le Pen' crowd exceeds 20% of the population, and it's not exactly the most educated part.

The 2 extremist (far left and far right) parties get about 20% vote or less. Racism isn't limited to the far right or to people who vote for them. As I said, it is not politically correct to make racist remarks in public, it is not even allowed, that doesn't mean that people aren't racist. Immigrants are racist against each other as well.
I'm talking about discrimination here and the articles that I posted talk about that.

Assuming that's their only identity. I believe people like Tariq Ramadan who claim to have multiple identities. In his case he's a swiss muslim. Diaspora is a term used for the jewish exile. There are many muslim countries, so the term is uncalled for, unless you'd like to be part of the 'anti-zionist' crowd. I don't wish to lower myself to this nonsensical rubbish.

There are also reasons why some people do not wish to hire muslim immigrants. Whether you agree with the reasoning or not, it remains discrimination. This works both ways, you can't blame one party and condone another for the same practise. That's hypocrite in my view.

I'm afraid that you totally misunderstood my post. Any group of people living outside of their country are considered to be a diaspora. It is not out of favouritism as much as it is out of solidarity. That does not mean that a Tunisian land lord for example will reject a white tennant because he's white, but he will rent his flats to Arabs because they come to him. knowing that they will not be rejected because of their race or religious afiliation.

My preference is with the latter, I think most people rather receive help in the place they feel at home.

I think both are important

Great, you found someone to blame. I wish you good luck trying to right the wrongs of history. I don't share your conclusion, especially the underlined part. I hope we'll meet eachother finding solutions for these problems, after reading the links you posted, I do agree with you that there is a problem in France.

It is not a matter of blaming or not blaming. Everything is a matter of consequence. Sometimes it is difficult to determine which came first, the egg or the hen, but in this case the answer is simple.

France colonised many African countries. To simplify things let's only take the example of Algeria because those are the immigrants that France has most of the problems with.

When France gave up Algeria, 2 things happened.
1- The situation with the existing Algerian workers worsened.

2- They left behind most of the Harkis, who had collaborated with the French knowing very well that their fate was to be slaughtered.



The immigrant population grew, many of the children of the original labourors wished to integrate into the society and sought employment and housing like the French had. However, that proved to be almost impossible.

You have to remember that there was a certain amount of grudge between the 2 people to begin with. The French still had the colonial attitude toward the Algerians, worsened by the violent way in which they had been kicked out of Algeria not too long ago. Needless to say, for Algerians France was still looked apon as their exploiters.

This is what I call a snow ball effect and also a chain reaction.

edit: I edited some stuff because the phases of the Algerian immigration is a bit long to explain. But I will if you're interested

 

[Djoop]

Thank you, I accept your apology.

The 2 extremist (far left and far right) parties get about 20% vote or less. Racism isn't limited to the far right or to people who vote for them. As I said, it is not politically correct to make racist remarks in public, it is not even allowed, that doesn't mean that people aren't racist. Immigrants are racist against each other as well. I'm talking about discrimination here and the articles that I posted talk about that.

I just believe that many if not most french people genuinly oppose racism and discrimination. That’s also the most logical explanation for these laws in my view.

I'm afraid that you totally misunderstood my post. Any group of people living outside of their country are considered to be a diaspora.

I did. Still, you seem to exclude the possibilty that some of these people come to France to stay, become french, and wish to be recognized as such. I refuse to regard them as a diaspora.

It is not out of favouritism as much as it is out of solidarity. That does not mean that a Tunisian land lord for example will reject a white tennant because he's white, but he will rent his flats to Arabs because they come to him. knowing that they will not be rejected because of their race or religious afiliation.

Fair enough, but the reference was my example of muslim employers in NL, not a Tunesian land lord who’s clearly not discriminating.
In a muslim community, a local grocery store owner prefers to hire someone who speaks arabic. If not only out of a commercial motive. There are also communities where store owners do not wat a woman with a vale behind the counter. I wouldn’t want to rate everything as racism. Racism is about exclusion, it goes beyond preferences.

I think both are important

It is not a matter of blaming or not blaming. Everything is a matter of consequence. Sometimes it is difficult to determine which came first, the egg or the hen, but in this case the answer is simple.

France colonised many African countries. To simplify things let's only take the example of Algeria because those are the immigrants that France has most of the problems with.

When France gave up Algeria, 2 things happened.
1- they brought in a large number of workers because the country needed labourors

2- they left behind most of the Harkis, who had collaborated with the French knowing very well that their fate was to be slaughtered.

They housed the Algerian workers in special housing complexes built for immigrant workers and much later accepted to receive their families as well.

The immigrant population grew, many of the children of the original labourors wished to integrate into the society and sought employment and housing like the French had. However, that proved to be almost impossible.

You have to remember that there was a certain amount of grudge between the 2 people to begin with. The French still had the colonial attitude toward the Algerians, worsened by the violent way in which they had been kicked out of Algeria not too long ago. Needless to say, for Algerians France was still looked apon as their exploiters.

This is what I call a snow ball effect and also a chain reaction.

1) Did they force these people to come to France? They brought or they invited? These little words are important in keeping a discussion honest.
2) That sounds like a reasonable explanation, but I know too little of this history, I will have to read into it.

 

[Camlon]

No, I don't play that kind of games.

If you consider sentnses such as "unless you'd like to be part of the 'anti-zionist' crowd. I don't wish to lower myself to this nonsensical rubbish". " "That's hypocrite in my view." "I wish you good luck trying to right the wrongs of history" civil, then I'm afraid that you and I do not share the same values.

No, I don't think they are that bad. The first statement was probably the worst. The second statement, just states the obvious after his conclusions, and the third isn't bad at all.

You must remember that you have openly called a large amount of French voters racist. If the quotes above is so bad that you don't want to keep debating, then calling people who vote for anti-immigration parties for racist, is in fact even worse.

 

[Mira]

I just believe that many if not most french people genuinly oppose racism and discrimination. That’s also the most logical explanation for these laws in my view.

I should probably call it xenophobia. I think the majority of humans are xenophobic but in civilised countries, xenophobic remarks and not politically correct and there are laws against them.
But as I explained before, an employer or a land lord who refuses to hire or rent cannot be persued by the law because there is no prrof that the reason is xenophobic.

They receive hundrends of applications and they chose who they say is trustworthy for the job or the flat.

I did. Still, you seem to exclude the possibilty that some of these people come to France to stay, become french, and wish to be recognized as such. I refuse to regard them as a diaspora.

You are correct about the misuse of the word diaspora. I meant to say community. People from the same community tend to help each other by solidarity, especially if there is discrimination against their community

Fair enough, but the reference was my example of muslim employers in NL, not a Tunesian land lord who’s clearly not discriminating.
In a muslim community, a local grocery store owner prefers to hire someone who speaks arabic. If not only out of a commercial motive. There are also communities where store owners do not wat a woman with a vale behind the counter. I wouldn’t want to rate everything as racism. Racism is about exclusion, it goes beyond preferences.

Well, obviously getting decent jobs and housing is more difficult for a person of Muslim origine in France, as the articles that I posted showed.

1) Did they force these people to come to France? They brought or they invited? These little words are important in keeping a discussion honest.
2) That sounds like a reasonable explanation, but I know too little of this history, I will have to read into it.

perhaps these articles will help. I admit not having the patience to write a very long post.


Immigration in Postwar France: Lecture 1
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_France]Demographics of France - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

I didn't read them, I've had my share of books on the subject. Please forgive me if they're not informative enough.

 

[Mira]

No, I don't think they are that bad. The first statement was probably the worst. The second statement, just states the obvious after his conclusions, and the third isn't bad at all.

You must remember that you have openly called a large amount of French voters racist. If the quotes above is so bad that you don't want to keep debating, then calling people who vote for anti-immigration parties for racist, is in fact even worse.

Djoop has behaved like gentleman and apologised, so no worries.

I am a French citizen and I vote as well. Autocriticism has never hurt anyone when appropriate.

 

[Djoop]

I should probably call it xenophobia. I think the majority of humans are xenophobic but in civilised countries, xenophobic remarks and not politically correct and there are laws against them.
But as I explained before, an employer or a land lord who refuses to hire or rent cannot be persued by the law because there is no prrof that the reason is xenophobic.

They receive hundrends of applications and they chose who they say is trustworthy for the job or the flat.

You are correct about the misuse of the word diaspora. I meant to say community. People from the same community tend to help each other by solidarity, especially if there is discrimination against their community

Well, obviously getting decent jobs and housing is more difficult for a person of Muslim origine in France, as the articles that I posted showed.

Yes. What remains is the question on how to improve these circumstances. Criminal and anti-french behaviour only helps the xenophobes gain seats in parliament.

perhaps these articles will help. I admit not having the patience to write a very long post.
Immigration in Postwar France: Lecture 1
Demographics of France - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I didn't read them, I've had my share of books on the subject. Please forgive me if they're not informative enough.

Nah, don’t be silly. Thanks!

 

[Mira]

Yes. What remains is the question on how to improve these circumstances. Criminal and anti-french behaviour only helps the xenophobes gain seats in parliament.

It's a vicious circle, isn't it ? More crime and anti-French behaviour = more xenophobia, more xenophobia = more crime etc....

The only remaining solution with the immigrants who are already here would be to multiply the efforts to make them behave by finding them decent jobs and better housing and to multiply the efforts to explain to the French that they should be more tolerant. The two go hand in hand.

There are more efforts being made by the immigrant community from within. Associations that focus on sports and education are multiplying. The more useful these kids feel, better the chances are that they will stay away from crime.

They really do suffer from an inferiority complex and most of their crime is an ego problem. Those associations are helping them to direct their frustrations into a positive direction rather than boosting their ego by burning cars, group raping young girls in basements and attacking helpless people in the suburban trains. It's not easy to control all of this, but its the right way. Police brutality only makes things worse.

Things don't happen overnight, but as long as their countries remain poor, they will find any means to go to places where there's work. The larger the number of the immigrants, the harder it is to control the situation.

The economical crisis isn't helping either

Nah, don’t be silly. Thanks!

You're most welcome

 

[Dutch]

Please state what you are referring to. You used the Mail as source. You would be lucky if 10% of what the mail writes is based in fact. You also made an assumption on myself which has no credibility and was not supported.

What you didn't say was whether or not this particular story was that 10% or not.

 

[Dutch]

Please see my post 50 for the situation we have had in the UK where integration has been made extremely difficult. This country was racist but more integrated before 9/11. It is going to be much harder to create that now and it looks like it is going to be different. That is the problem. Itf we do not look after our own racism we should not be surprised if people want to stay apart. I would be the same.

If anti-americanism (something I feel is a form of racism) is anything to go by then, yes, racism is endemic in europe.

At the moment most women in the UK are choosing what appear to us as an inferior roles. This is different to when a woman is forced into say a marriage or like in the 80's when women of Muslim descent were complaining about being forced to act in certain ways. We can only give Muslim women the same rights as we give other women - the right to choose.

By legalizing sharia it seems to me you aren't giving them the rights afforded by western european women. Is this not a form of racism?

Regarding Sharia, I suspect this is another of the alarm but none to true bumpf we have in this 'lets all hate a muslim' game. I can believe that 40% or it may even be more want Sharia law but only concerning family law and neighbourhood disputes and only if it does not supersede British Law. I studied this before from legit sources and that is what I found. This simpy allows Muslims the exact same rights as Jews have had for over 100 years.

I don't hate muslims but that doesn't change the fact sharia law, in the eyes of this westerner, keeps women subservient to men.

Sharia law does not necessarily mean anything nasty. Lots of it is good and within family law it can at times be more helpful to women than ours. In addition when using this it is only allowed when both people agree that is the way they wish to go.

I find this assertion....absurd.

Anything more nasty I suspect in the main is dying down and a lot of that came from people who had suffered bad racism and who had not previously been practising Muslims. They were pushed too far and they reacted. If you heard some of them speak and their age, you could see it like a kind of phase - the sensible thing to do is to provide creative possibilities for people so that their life has some meaning and get them a proper religious education if they want that. That is why we have started sending the best Imans into prisons because of course that is where the discontented can be found and brainwashed.

This is your idea of "a phase?" These aren't errant children we are talking about here.

Yes, there is a problem but when you find a problem the best thing to do is to solve it.

Anyone who should be in jail will be if they are found.

The problem comes when we have a hate fest such as at the present time when every Muslim is blamed for the actions of a few and they become disheartened and move out of society.

We all need to work together to solve this. Our hatred is only fueling it.

Blaming your society....again. Isn't it just possible this isn't a result of european racism but a rejection of the current secular society? For a traditional society that prizes children, family, and god western european society is pretty much a cesspool.

 

[Djoop]

Blaming your society....again. Isn't it just possible this isn't a result of european racism but a rejection of the current secular society? For a traditional society that prizes children, family, and god western european society is pretty much a cesspool.

Eventhough I do not doubt Mira's intentions, I find your conclusion a lot more plausible.

 

[Dutch]

Eventhough I do not doubt Mira's intentions, I find your conclusion a lot more plausible.

I don't know the girl but there is no doubt in my mind she is sincere in her beliefs.

 

[Mira]

I don't know the girl but there is no doubt in my mind she is sincere in her beliefs.

It's been more than 20 years since someone has called me a "girl" :lol:

 

[Dutch]

It's been more than 20 years since someone has called me a "girl" :lol:

I mean no disrespect. I'm a southerner.

 

[alexa]

What you didn't say was whether or not this particular story was that 10% or not.

I never read any of your sources. I simply noted that rather than replying to a post with many points you decided to try some stereotyping and said that my post meant I believed whatever trash it was you left. I simply pointed out that not only was your rudeness to me incorrect but you did not have the ability to know when a source was reliable. Hence not worth my time. You are playing games.

 

[alexa]

If anti-americanism (something I feel is a form of racism) is anything to go by then, yes, racism is endemic in europe.

Pathetic

By legalizing sharia it seems to me you aren't giving them the rights afforded by western european women. Is this not a form of racism?

I made it quite clear that this is only the same as what Jews here have had for over 100 years. You will need to end Jews right to act in the same manner if you wish to deny it to Muslims. This is simply our law - that is UK law.

I don't hate muslims but that doesn't change the fact sharia law, in the eyes of this westerner, keeps women subservient to men.

The important issue is whether they actually are. To be subservient the woman would be acting in a way which made her in some way servile. At the moment a lot of Muslim women are for instance choosing even to wear veils. This may be innappropriate for many occupations and hence rule out working in that area but if it is a persons choice then I cannot see any reason to disrespect the person doing it.

That I think is where you and I would differ. I would allow people to find their own way. My guess is that in 20 or 30 years things will be different. I do not imagine Muslim women in our country being happy to be subservient. If that happens things will change.

With more recent immigrants we can have problems. For instance there was a case of an honour killing in a Turkish family which was in court this week. You should have heard the woman let out all her pent up emotions about the way she had been treated and her anger about what had happened to her daughter. People do not like being mistreated whoever they are and they will speak out when they get a chance.

I find this assertion....absurd.

That is because you have never studied it. I did last year and there are situations where it is better for the woman. I am not going to be bothered looking it up again but that simply is the case. Perhaps you should question why you find ideas which interfere with your stereotype absurd. The problem belongs to you.

This is your idea of "a phase?" These aren't errant children we are talking about here.

Pathetic. The people who committed these acts are dead. Clearly they could not be the people I was talking about. LOL all Muslims are the people who bombed London to you. Why am I not surprised.

Blaming your society....again. Isn't it just possible this isn't a result of european racism but a rejection of the current secular society?

I have no idea where the 'again' comes from but to the issue at hand.

Which society was it that continued to call these people 'Pakis' and 'Boy' ? Which society was it that commited 670 acts of violence within a two week period after 9/11 on innocent Muslims and Muslim property?

For a traditional society that prizes children, family, and god western european society is pretty much a cesspool.

It might be so if you are saying you disrespect children, family and having faith. It is very likely that such a person's life is a cesspool.

 

[Dutch]

Pathetic

......and yet, true. Pity.

source

Anti-Americanism 'feels like racism'

Ms Cox says she lowers her voice on the Tube to avoid confrontation
Christian Cox, a US citizen living in London, wrote to the BBC news website to express her concern about the amount of abuse she receives because of her nationality.

She says the level of anti-Americanism she has experienced "feels like a kind of racism".

"I don't want anyone to feel sorry for Americans, or me, I just want people to realise that we are dealing with hatred too."

Typical British pub banter is one thing, says Christian Cox, but the "pure hatred" she says is directed at her for being American is really starting to wear her down.

The former model moved to London a year ago, where she is setting up her own business, and has been surprised at how some people have reacted to her nationality.

Ms Cox, 29, says she has been called, among other things, "terrorist", "scum", "low life", and feels that she is constantly being held to account for the actions of President Bush and for US foreign policy.

This is despite the fact that she doesn't agree with the war in Iraq and didn't vote for Bush.......

 

[Dutch]

I never read any of your sources. I simply noted that rather than replying to a post with many points you decided to try some stereotyping and said that my post meant I believed whatever trash it was you left. I simply pointed out that not only was your rudeness to me incorrect but you did not have the ability to know when a source was reliable. Hence not worth my time. You are playing games.

In your opinion. I found nothing wrong with the story. You didn't either. If you did you would have stated so.

 

[Dutch]

I made it quite clear that this is only the same as what Jews here have had for over 100 years. You will need to end Jews right to act in the same manner if you wish to deny it to Muslims. This is simply our law - that is UK law.

Charming custom. There are 158,000 americans in britain. One of them my cousin. At just what point will they be allowed their rights under the american constitution?



[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans_in_the_United_Kingdom"]wiki[/ame]

Population
The 2001 UK Census recorded 158,434 people born in the United States.[1] Estimates published by the Office for National Statistics suggest that, in 2008, this figure stood at 182,000.[2]

The largest single local cluster of Americans in Britain recorded by the 2001 Census was in Mildenhall in north-west Suffolk – the site of two of the largest US Air Force bases in the world, RAF Mildenhall and nearby RAF Lakenheath. This is because of the legacy of the Cold War and NATO co-operation. Beyond that, London is home to many Americans, mostly young adult workers in the City of London.[3]

Prior to the end of the Cold War the highest proportion of Americans resident in the United Kingdom per head of population was centred on the Scottish seaside town of Dunoon, Argyll and Bute, the former site of the Holy Loch US Navy base. At its height in the early 1990s around a quarter of Dunoon's population was American.[4]

Some of the Americans showing in the figures will be older, ex-servicemen who returned after being based in the UK during World War II. Examples of areas with large percentages of American people are: Mildenhall (17.28%), Chelsea - London (6.53%) and Kensington - London (5.81%). In London, the majority of Americans are businesspeople and their families which ties in with the strong economic relations between London and Washington D.C.[3]

 

[Manc Skipper]

And the point is? She has a new business to promote, and her experience is not recognised by the majority of Americans in the "comments" section.

 

[kaya'08]

......and yet, true. Pity.

source

Oh come on. Because of one story, because of this one womans experience you have drafted a conclusion as to the "level of anti-americanism in Europe"? Surely an intelligent opinion is formulated by the backing of various sources and/or personal experience? From what ive witnessed i can tell you this womans "experience" is an isolated one. There is no anti-US hate campaign in the UK. And you certainly dont recieve any special amounts of racism compared to other minorities, naturally.