Muslims cannot integrate into West

[reefedjib]

You look happy ... were you taught something different ?

No, I am just happy.

You originally wrote:

But let me ask you how can muslims integrate in a society that is full of hatred against them (like Denmark)...

One reason they may hate is because of the special treatment muslims are asking for. One example of this is: Islam and the associated works of interpretation does specify a system of jurisprudence does it not? This would be at odds with a country's system of jurisprudence. I understand that in some western countries, muslims are demanding that they try criminals under this alternate system of juriprudence, Sharia. How can you integrate if you expect different legal treatment?

 

[Elena]

there is no relationship between those people and islam.

why must islam pay for what those did ? ... They claim they are muslims however they do what is prohibited by islam !!!

Not quite...

Sura 9:

9:1 A declaration of immunity from God and His apostle to the idolaters with whom you have made agreements:

9:2 For four months you shall go unmolested in the land. But know that you shall not escape God’s judgement, and that God will humble the unbelievers.

9:3 A proclamation to the people from God and His apostle on the day of the greater pilgrimage:

God and His apostle are under no obligation to the idolaters. If you repent, it shall be well with you; but if you give no heed, know that you shall not be immune from God’s judgement.

Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers,

9:4 except to those idolaters who have honoured their treaties with you in every detail and aided none against you. With these keep faith, until their treaties have run their term. God loves the righteous.

9:5 When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful.

9:6 If an idolater seeks asylum with you, give him protection so that he may hear the Word of God, and then convey him to safety. For the idolaters are ignorant men.

9:7 God and His apostle repose no trust in idolaters, save those with whom you have made treaties at the Sacred Mosque. So long as they keep faith with you, keep faith with them. God loves the righteous.

9:8 How can you trust them? If they prevail against you they will respect neither agreements nor ties of kindred. They flatter you with their tongues, but their hearts reject you. Most of them are evil doers.

A bit more from MUHAMMAD.

047.001 Those who disbelieve and turn (men) from the way of Allah, He rendereth their actions vain.

047.004 Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain.

047.005 He will guide them and improve their state,

047.006 And bring them in unto the Garden which He hath made known to them.

047.035 Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost: for Allah is with you, and will never put you in loss for your (good) deeds.

047.036 The life of this world is but play and amusement: and if ye believe and guard against Evil, He will grant you your recompense, and will not ask you (to give up) your possessions.

Possible interpretation? It is pleasing to Allah when you kill disbelievers, it is how he is testing your loyalty. You must not seek peace. Don't be afraid to die, because if you will die fighting disbelievers Allah will bring you straight into his Garden; after all life is but play and amusement.

Suicide bomber manual?

 

[gunner]

I think it must be difficult to be a devout Muslim in most western countries, but that is not to say one cant be. The pitfalls and difficulties are what comes with living in a non Muslim country.

Paul

 

[Sylviane88]

Islam, a religion of mercy, does not permit terrorism. In the Quran, God has said:

“God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers.” (Quran 60:8)

The Prophet Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, used to prohibit soldiers from killing women and children, and he would advise them: “...Do not betray, do not be excessive, do not kill a newborn child.” And he also said: “Whoever has killed a person having a treaty with the Muslims shall not smell the fragrance of Paradise, though its fragrance is found for a span of forty years.”

 

[rogerredy]

If you're really interested by islam, you should not take your opinions from a biased source (like your man and your article which seems to be pretty fair) Here is islam "in general" www.islamreligion.com ... your article is a proof showing your total ignorance of the religion of islam.

God bless you !

Hilarious, and so predictable.

Anyone who sees muslims and islam for what they are, is "biased", and only sources extolling islam are "legitimate."

Then again, religious fanatics don't usually have much interest in facts or reason, and the author could have pre-written every one of your responses, as I could have.

I know plenty about islam/muslim culture, and do not wish to see continued migration of muslims into the west. In fact, as the author suggests, I would like to see them deported en masse...

 

[Sylviane88]

Anyone who sees muslims and islam for what they are, is "biased", and only sources extolling islam are "legitimate."

Then again, religious fanatics don't usually have much interest in facts or reason, and the author could have pre-written every one of your responses, as I could have.

I think you have a brain so you can analyze -yourself- what is in website mentionned above.

I know plenty about islam/muslim culture

lol

and do not wish to see continued migration of muslims into the west. In fact, as the author suggests, I would like to see them deported en masse...

Do that when you become president.

 

[Elena]

Islam, a religion of mercy, does not permit terrorism. ”

And what are we going to do with Sura 9 and MUHAMMAD I quoted earlier?

 

[Sylviane88]

And what are we going to do with Sura 9 and MUHAMMAD I quoted earlier?

The Qur'an commands Muslims to stick up for themselves in a defensive battle -- i.e. if an enemy army attacks, then Muslims are to fight against that army until they stop their aggression. All of the verses that speak about fighting/war in the Qur'an are in this context.


There are some specific verses that are very often "snipped" out of context, either by those trying to malign the faith, or by misguided Muslims (terrorists) themselves who wish to justify their aggressive tactics.

[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]For example, one verse (in its snipped version) reads: "slay them wherever you catch them" (Qur'an 2:191). But who is this referring to? Who are "they" that this verse discusses? The preceding and following verses give the correct context:[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevails justice and faith in God; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression" (2:190-193).[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]It is clear from the context that these verses are discussing a defensive war, when a Muslim community is attacked without reason, oppressed and prevented from practicing their faith. In these circumstances, permission is given to fight back -- but even then Muslims are instructed not to transgress limits, and to cease fighting as soon as the attacker gives up. Even in these circumstances, Muslim are only to fight directly against those who are attacking them, not innocent bystanders or non-combatants.[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]Another similar verse can be found in chapter 9, verse 5 -- which in its snipped, out of context version could read: "fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)." Again, the preceding and following verses give the context.[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]This verse was revealed during a historical period when the small Muslim community had entered into treaties with neighboring tribes (Jewish, Christian, and pagan). Several of the pagan tribes had violated the terms of their treaty, secretly aiding an enemy attack against the Muslim community. The verse directly before this one instructs the Muslims to continue to honor treaties with anyone who has not since betrayed them, because fulfilling agreements is considered a righteous action. Then the verse continues, that those who have violated the terms of the treaty have declared war, so fight them... (as quoted above).[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]Directly after this permission to fight, the same verse continues, "but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them... for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." The subsequent verses instruct the Muslims to grant asylum to any member of the pagan tribe/army who asks for it, and again reminds that "as long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for God loves the righteous."[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]Any verse that is quoted out of context misses the whole point of the message of the Qur'an. Nowhere in the Qur'an can be found support for indiscriminate slaughter, the killing of non-combatants, or murder of innocent persons in 'payback' for another people's alleged crimes.[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]The Islamic teachings on this subject can be summed up in the following verses (Qur'an 60:7-8):[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]"It may be that God will grant love (and friendship) between you and those whom ye (now) hold as enemies. For God has power (over all things), and God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]God does not forbid you, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loves those who are just."[/FONT]

(Islam - Verses of Qur'an That Condone "Killing the Infidel"?) By: Christine Huda Dodge

 

[akyron]

The Qur'an commands Muslims to stick up for themselves in a defensive battle

Interesting. Those who do not submit to Allah are considered agggressors. How very convenient. Those who do not pay the jizyah are fair game.

I think you are just practicing up on your Taqiyah. It is getting better but it difficult to convince anyone that has put any serious time into reading the Koran, Haddiths, or Sunnah.



Qur'an 3:28: "Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers. If any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah; except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them". Sunni commentator Ibn Kathir explained that "believers that fear for their safety from the unbelievers... are allowed to show friendship to the unbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly".



Submission is all. Islam allows for decent dealing only with those who have fully submitted to pay or serve or become a muslim.


What we need is to clean out the madrassas and replace them with math, science, economics, world history, engineering, architecture, etc. That is the only way we will dig out of this hole we are all in. If people would put a tenth of the time into building a decent road they put into building a mosque afghanistan would be a much better country and you could reach a hospital in a decent amount of time instead of a three day mountain hike.

 

[Elena]

There are some specific verses that are very often "snipped" out of context, either by those trying to malign the faith, or by misguided Muslims (terrorists) themselves who wish to justify their aggressive tactics.

I didn't snip anything! I gave you the whole of Sura 9 and almost all from MUHAMMAD. What do you have to say about them? Are they not part of Quran?

 

[mbig]

Would be kind of difficult TO integrate with the Koran


[al-Ma'idah 5:51.8] O ye who believe! Take NOT the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

[an-Nisa' 4:46.6] Some of those who are Jews change words from their context and say: "We hear and disobey; hear thou as one who heareth not" and "Listen to us!" distorting with their tongues and slandering religion. If they had said: "We hear and we obey: hear thou, and look at us" it had been better for them, and more upright. But Allah hath cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, save a few.

[an-Nisa' 4:160.7] Because of the wrongdoing of the Jews We forbade them good things which were (before) made lawful unto them, and because of their much hindering from Allah's way,

[al-Ma'idah 5:64.2] The Jews say: Allah's hand is fettered. Their hands are fettered and they are accursed for saying so...."

[al-Ma'idah 5:82.18] Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe (to be) the Jews and the idolaters. And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud.

Translation Pickthall

 

[mbig]

This article is absolutely unfair ... But let me ask you how can muslims integrate in a society that is full of hatred against them (like Denmark)... Many of people hate islam for a reason that is false .....

Got it! "like Denmark" and "False"!

Something Rotten in Denmark?
by Daniel Pipes and Lars Hedegaard
New York Post/Aug 27, 2002

A Muslim group in Denmark announced a few days ago that a $30,000 bounty would be paid for the murder of several prominent Danish Jews, a threat that garnered wide international notice. Less well known is that this is just one problem associated with Denmark's approximately 200,000 Muslim immigrants. The key issue is that many of them show Little desire to fit into their adopted country.

For years, Danes lauded multiculturalism and insisted they had no problem with the Muslim customs - until one day they found that they Did. Some major issues:

* Living on the dole: Third-world immigrants - most of them Muslims from countries such as Turkey, Somalia, Pakistan, Lebanon and Iraq - constitute 5% of the population but consume upwards of 40% of the welfare spending.

* Engaging in crime: Muslims are only 4% of Denmark's 5.4 million people but make up a Majority of the country's convicted Rapists, an especially combustible issue given that practically all the female victims are non-Muslim. Similar, if lesser, disproportions are found in other crimes.

* Self-imposed isolation: Over time, as Muslim immigrants increase in numbers, they wish less to mix with the indigenous population. A recent survey finds that only 5% of young Muslim immigrants would readily marry a Dane.

* Importing unacceptable customs....."​

Something Rotten in Denmark? :: Daniel Pipes

I wonder why the Danes had a change of heart?

 

[Laila]

Hilarious, and so predictable.

Anyone who sees muslims and islam for what they are, is "biased", and only sources extolling islam are "legitimate."

Then again, religious fanatics don't usually have much interest in facts or reason, and the author could have pre-written every one of your responses, as I could have.

I know plenty about islam/muslim culture, and do not wish to see continued migration of muslims into the west. In fact, as the author suggests, I would like to see them deported en masse...

Lovely. I would not take the opinions of someone who wishes to see all members of a specific group to be deported seriously.

I see nothing different between people like you and those fanatical Muslims who believe they are superior.

 

[reefedjib]

Three times you have ignored my question. I am starting to think you would have nothing positive to say about Islam with regards to it, so you shoose to ignore it. Very revealing that part of the problem of intergration comes from Muslims.

But let me ask you how can muslims integrate in a society that is full of hatred against them (like Denmark)...

One reason they may hate is because of the special treatment muslims are asking for. One example of this is: Islam and the associated works of interpretation does specify a system of jurisprudence does it not? This would be at odds with a country's system of jurisprudence. I understand that in some western countries, muslims are demanding that they try criminals under this alternate system of juriprudence, Sharia. How can you integrate if you expect different legal treatment?

 

[PeteEU]

A trained danish psychologist who worked closely with muslims for 3 years in Denmark has made this claim in his book, and he uses facts and research to support his claim.

Read his interview here, very interesting stuff that the left and awful political leadership of europe should be embracing, but instead prefer to redirect their own muslim citizens' anger with endless UN resolutions against israel.

See:

Integration Of Muslims In Western Societies Is Not Possible | Global Terrorism

Well...

This is yet again one of those situations where you have to look at the source.

Nicolai Sennels is a card carrying member of the far right Peoples Party. This would be like accepting a book or paper from a KKK member on race relations in the US. Or accepting a BNP piece on race relations in the UK.

So his views are tainted to say the least by his politics and not his professional views nor the facts for the most part.

While I am the first to admit there are portions of immigrants in Denmark that are having a hard time integrating into society, it has almost nothing to do with religion. What it does have to do with is failed immigration policies of the 1960s to the 1980s, early integration policies in the same time period and the immigrants themselves.

 

[reefedjib]

While I am the first to admit there are portions of immigrants in Denmark that are having a hard time integrating into society, it has almost nothing to do with religion. What it does have to do with is failed immigration policies of the 1960s to the 1980s, early integration policies in the same time period and the immigrants themselves.

How have the immigrants themselves been a barrier to integration?

 

[mbig]

How?, you ask. But it was answered just above.

I guess you (and Pete) missed.. er.. had to ignore my post #37

"...Less well known is that this is just one problem associated with Denmark's approximately 200,000 Muslim immigrants. The Key issue is that many of them show Little desire to Fit into their adopted country.

For years, Danes lauded multiculturalism and insisted they had no problem with the Muslim customs - until one day they found that they Did. Some major issues:

* Living on the Dole: Third-world immigrants - most of them Muslims from countries such as Turkey, Somalia, Pakistan, Lebanon and Iraq - constitute 5% of the population but consume upwards of 40% of the welfare spending.

* Engaging in crime: Muslims are only 4% of Denmark's 5.4 million people but make up a Majority of the country's convicted Rapists, an especially combustible issue given that practically all the female victims are non-Muslim. Similar, if lesser, disproportions are found in other crimes.

* Self-imposed isolation: Over time, as Muslim immigrants increase in numbers, they wish less to mix with the indigenous population. A recent survey finds that only 5% of young Muslim immigrants would readily marry a Dane.

* Importing unacceptable customs....."​

 

[PeteEU]

Re: How?, you ask. But it was answered just above.

I guess you (and Pete) missed.. er.. had to ignore my post #37

No I did not miss it, I chose not to respond. But since you want a response.

Your source is highly lacking. He does not back up any of his numbers what so ever, hence can not be taken seriously. His article is very like the far right racist views of the OP linked article person and his political organisation. And it is pretty much debunked by the follow up letters.. he has balls posting those. But then again he attempts to slam the debunkers like a good little right winger. He is frankly pathetic in his writing and it the article is so devoid of facts that it is not even funny.

For example

Living on the dole: Third-world immigrants - most of them Muslims from countries such as Turkey, Somalia, Pakistan, Lebanon and Iraq - constitute 5 percent of the population but consume upwards of 40 percent of the welfare spending.

What is his source? He just throws out those numbers.. 40% of "welfare spending".. what is that? Unemployment insurance? Schooling? Healthcare? what exact is that?

And then there is this gem

In a momentous election last November, a center-right coalition came to power that - for the first time since 1929 - excluded the socialists. The right broke its 72-year losing streak and won a solid parliamentary majority by promising to handle immigration issues, the electorate's first concern, differently from the socialists.

Talk about a load of bs. Yes the right beat the Social Democrats in the election and I helped them in doing so.. damn Social Democrats. No it was not on immigration. And worse still, the "first time since 1929".. I guess that decade of centre right governments from 1981 to 1993 was just a fantasy of mine.. or the 1973 to 1975 centre right government.. or the 1950 to 1953 centre right government, or the one right after the war was also a figment of my imagination. But then again fact checking is not the strong point of American media and especially a paper owned by Rupert Murdoch.

Sorry if I cant take his accusations seriously with such a lack of source material.

But if you want to have statistics on Denmark, it is mostly free at the Danish Statistical institute.

Oh and for the rape part.. in 2007, there was 71 convictions on rape charges in Denmark. 21 of those were against non Danes and of those 7 were from "Muslim areas of the world"

 

[mbig]

That's a Mighty SPARSE response/Empty denial/Not one single rebuttal to a clearly well researched article and it's MANY facts.
you HAD to ignore, as many others (tho less now than 10 years ago) do to maintain their PC and anti-colonial 'white guilt'.
Including what must otherwise be a mysterious/baseless change of heart in Denmark and most of liberal Europe/Scandinavia for that matter about Muslim immigration.

Against which we have your mere Subjective opinion (throughout!) about the problem that I guess doesn't exist.
Right Pete?

 

[Gardener]

I've known Muslims who were extremely well integrated -- the Turks and Iranians, especially, and if this forum is any indication, I'd have to add those from Somaliland .

Others, by the looks of it aren't very well intergrated at all. I would suggest to folks who want to get a CLEAR picture on the subject, neither clouded by excessive apologia nor compromized by bigotry, to simply avail themselves of various Pew reports conducted of Muslims living in Europe. The statistics tell the story better than a bunch of long winded rhetoric.

 

[PeteEU]

That's a Mighty SPARSE response/Empty denial/Not one single rebuttal to a clearly well researched article and it's MANY facts.

Not a single rebuttal? Give me a break... the moron can not even get his historical fact correct, and you expect him to get his facts on Muslims in Denmark correct?

And facts? Where are the facts from?! That is the whole problem. If it was well researched, then he would have links or just mention where he got the freaking facts from in the first place. He does not.

But lets look at this.

Engaging in crime: Muslims are only 4 percent of Denmark's 5.4 million people but make up a majority of the country's convicted rapists, an especially combustible issue given that practically all the female victims are non-Muslim. Similar, if lesser, disproportions are found in other crimes.

First off we do not register people based on religion or race. Secondly for his claim to be valid then the amount of convictions for rape should have a majority of immigrants and non Danes. The statistics do not back that up on bit. The fact is in 2000 and 20002 33%ish of rape convictions was of non-Danes, and that includes everything from Americans to Somalies and onwards. So it is statistically impossible for it to be true. Granted there are no numbers from before 2000 online but I highly doubt that during the 1990s that of the on average 60ish rape convictions a year that a huge majority of those were done by non-Danes. And if this is true, then it is impossible for a majority of convicted rapists to be "Muslim". But he is correct that when a non-Dane rapes a woman in Denmark it is more than likely the victims are non-Muslim..logic is a bitch.. I mean there are 2.5 million women in Denmark, a huge majority of those are non-Muslim, so the statistical chance that a Muslim woman is raped is very very very low. Not to mention Muslim women usually dont report rape. But I guess he "forgot" to mention that.

you HAD to ignore, as many others (tho less now than 10 years ago) do to maintain their PC and anti-colonial 'white guilt'.

Ignore what? A debunked post from a far right wing islamphobe? This guy has zero credibility as he can not provide his source material. Even in his own posts Danish politicians debunk his hateful bs.. and what does he do... goes after them instead of defending his work.. pathetic right wing tactic.

Including what must otherwise be a mysterious/baseless change of heart in Denmark and most of liberal Europe/Scandinavia for that matter about Muslim immigration.

You see this is where you are wrong. We do have problems with parts of our immigrant population in Denmark, and we do not deny it. However it is in no way as "bad" as this crack pot and other far right wing islamphobes claim.

Against which we have your mere Subjective opinion (throughout!) about the problem that I guess doesn't exist.
Right Pete?

As I have said many times if you bothered to read... I do not deny that we have problems with part of our immigrant population, and especially part of the Turkish minority.

 

[PeteEU]

How have the immigrants themselves been a barrier to integration?

Sorry missed this one.

It is pretty simple. A large majority of the "problem" immigrants came in the 1960s and early 1970s when Denmark was booming and we needed the workers. They were let in with almost no conditions which was our first mistake. When the jobs dried up, they stayed and thanks to our very socialist rules at the time, they were allowed to get their family up to Denmark.

Now the problem with these immigrants (mostly from Turkey) is that a very large majority came from some of the most backward parts of Turkey. They were highly conservative traditionalists, which meant that the women of the family were denied by their husbands any integration into society. While the men were given every opportunity to learn Danish, they barred their women from the same. Hence we have today an older immigrant population who has lived 30 years in Denmark who do not speak a word of Danish and have lived behind closed doors for most of the period.

These people have had kids, and their traditionalist views have been exported to their kids in many ways, especially the boys. But being brought up in a western society, these children have been torn between the traditionalist society at home and the free western society in their schools and so on. This has caused tons of conflict, as we all know children are easy to manipulate.

But these traditionalists have brought forced and arranged marriage to Denmark. We had to legislate against it because it was becoming such a problem. They also brought honour killings.. while rare, they still shock Danish society. Now remember non of this has anything to do with Islam.

So in many ways, many of the integration problems we do have are in large part the fault of the immigrants themselves (not solely though, we as Danish society have some blame too, I do not deny that). It is odd that many of these immigrants, after 30 years still have not become Danish citizens, nor have their children.... considering the amount of time they have lived in the country it is a slam dunk to become a Danish citizen.

It is most clear when you compare immigrant groups. We also received many Vietnamese refugees back in the day, and they have integrated very well in Danish society. This goes for many of the immigrants in the country, but the exceptions are those from highly traditionalists tribal societies.

 

[alexa]

I've known Muslims who were extremely well integrated -- the Turks and Iranians, especially, and if this forum is any indication, I'd have to add those from Somaliland .

Others, by the looks of it aren't very well intergrated at all. I would suggest to folks who want to get a CLEAR picture on the subject, neither clouded by excessive apologia nor compromized by bigotry, to simply avail themselves of various Pew reports conducted of Muslims living in Europe. The statistics tell the story better than a bunch of long winded rhetoric.

Unable to find any report written for the Pew by Muslims living in Europe but glad to see the Pew themselves were happy with the way multiculturism is going in the UK
:mrgreen:

The United Kingdom, on the other hand, has adopted a
more multicultural model, one that aims not to change
immigrants into Englishmen, but to get them to accept
Britain’s core institutions and to learn English. Some
scholars say that this approach has worked well.
“They’ve had a debate there like we’ve had here over
multiculturalism vs. assimilation,” Soper says. “But I
think they’ve found a good balance because they’re doing
much better than most other countries in Europe.
Muslims in Britain are making more progress in business
and politics than they are most elsewhere.”

http://www.pewforum.org/publications/reports/muslims-europe-2005.pdf

Also remember all that fuss about Wilders not being allowed in for fear the BNP and radical Muslims would use it as an excuse to ref up discontent....well when he was here last weekend the radicals could only manage to get 40 along to their meetings and the BNP had nothing to talk about :rofl

 

[alexa]

Now the problem with these immigrants (mostly from Turkey) is that a very large majority came from some of the most backward parts of Turkey.
Now remember non of this has anything to do with Islam.

Yes, I remember watching a program on the problems Turkey has in it's most poverty stricken and undeveloped areas with 'honor' killings and the program did make clear that this just happens in Turkey where people have nothing in their lives but their supposed pride as men and indeed is a pre Islam horror activity.

We have around 12 'honor' killings a year here in the UK. Something which is not supported by the Muslim community.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Actually, it was the Democrats in America at least -- the Left that opposed civil
Rights and thereby integration of Blacks into Society. But aside from being incorrect you point is irrelevant.

You are half right. It was many democrats that opposed civil rights in the US. However, they were conservatives. Observe how many of them bolted the Democratic party and became Republicans after the Civil Rights Act was passed.