Muslims cannot integrate into West

[Australianlibertarian]

I may have problems with certain Islamist views, but I certainly do not have any problem with moderate or secular Muslims. Heck my all time greatest hero is Ataturk.

I find it annoying that people would posts such 'scientific studies', when in reality Islam and Muslims are not some monolithic entity. These kind of broad statements do no distinguish between Qatub inspired Islamists, and Muslims. Whether they be Sunni, Shia, secular, Sufi, non-practicing, Alawite, nominal, etc, etc. I may be a cantankerous atheist but even I can see the difference.

 

[Gardener]

We have around 12 'honor' killings a year here in the UK. .

and how many of those are among the Welsh, Scottish, Irish and English?

 

[alexa]

and how many of those are among the Welsh, Scottish, Irish and English?

And how many of the US's 16,272 murders in 2008 were caused by the Welsh, English, Scottish and Irish?

Our total murder rate about 750-800 per year.

 

[Gardener]

Unable to find any report written for the Pew by Muslims living in Europe but glad to see the Pew themselves were happy with the way multiculturism is going in the UK
:mrgreen:

Have you ever considered discussing issues WITHOUT all the dishonest spin? You lift one paragraph from a Pew report where they simply quote an advocate of multiculturalism and then proceed to claim that they "are happy with the way multiculturalism is going". They are a research centre and are not in the business of projecting their own bias such as you suggest. THey did not endorse such a policy, but merely quoted one who does.

As far as the reports that are so easy to find via rudimentary searches, but somehow beyond your means despite the carefully selected passage that you did quote, I will save you the trouble and link to one such study here. It is what it is, and those who attempt to spin it according to their own bias are simply engaged in the art of propaganda rather than intelligent analysis.

http://pewglobal.org/reports/pdf/253.pdf

Islamic Extremism: Common Concern for Muslim and Western Publics: I. How Muslims and Westerners See Each Other - Pew Global Attitudes Project

 

[Gardener]

And how many of the US's 16,272 murders in 2008 were caused by the Welsh, English, Scottish and Irish?

Our total murder rate about 750-800 per year.

There were no honor killings commited here by Welsh, Irish, English or Scottish.

Same as your country, I would imagine.

 

[alexa]

Have you ever considered discussing issues WITHOUT all the dishonest spin? You lift one paragraph from a Pew report where they simply quote an advocate of multiculturalism and then proceed to claim that they "are happy with the way multiculturalism is going". They are a research centre and are not in the business of projecting their own bias such as you suggest. THey did not endorse such a policy, but merely quoted one who does.

As far as the reports that are so easy to find via rudimentary searches, but somehow beyond your means despite the carefully selected passage that you did quote, I will save you the trouble and link to one such study here. It is what it is, and those who attempt to spin it according to their own bias are simply engaged in the art of propaganda rather than intelligent analysis.

http://pewglobal.org/reports/pdf/253.pdf

Islamic Extremism: Common Concern for Muslim and Western Publics: I. How Muslims and Westerners See Each Other - Pew Global Attitudes Project

A relevant quote is to you dishonest spin. Relevant because your spin is always what a horrible country the UK is and how horrible UK Muslims are because we are a multicultural country and yet when I decide to have a look at this American organisation which you claim has got European Muslims to do research on Muslims in Europe of course I am pleased to find the American organisation is not agreeing with your constant Islamophobia.

Please tell me which of these links is the one done by European Muslims and give me a brief summary and I will decide whether it is worth any of my time.

 

[new coup for you]

there's plenty of places in the US where Muslims are integrated

 

[Gardener]

A relevant quote is to you dishonest spin. Relevant because your spin is always what a horrible country the UK is and how horrible UK Muslims are because we are a multicultural country and yet when I decide to have a look at this American organisation which you claim has got European Muslims to do research on Muslims in Europe of course I am pleased to find the American organisation is not agreeing with your constant Islamophobia.

Please tell me which of these links is the one done by European Muslims and give me a brief summary and I will decide whether it is worth any of my time.

Alexa, you have some obvious issues here involving your ability to comprehend the written word.

For those who do posess such an ability, however, I would offer your posting as all too typical of one of the problems faced in Europe regarding integration in that all too often, an appeal to look at the situation rationally and without blinders results in these sorts of hysterical, foaming at the mouth accusations of "Islamaphobia".

 

[PeteEU]

There were no honor killings commited here by Welsh, Irish, English or Scottish.

Same as your country, I would imagine.

Actually don't be so sure. Problem is the definition of an "honour killing". It has been "linked" to only Muslims during the last few years thanks but if you look at murders in western countries there are many that could easily be categorised as "honour" killings.

Not long ago I read of a father in LA that killed his wife and children before committing suicide because of the economic situation. The disgrace of the economic melt down he had gotten into made him do it.. that is an honour killing no?

How about a gang banger that kills someone because he or she looked wrong at him or his friends? Is that not an honour killing? Or a drug dealer that kills a drug addict because he or she owes him money.. that is also an honour killing as the motivation is to regain the "image" of "no one screws with me". How about a husband that beats the wife to death after she divorces him?

People kill due to underlying honour of some sort all the time, we in the west just dont call it an "honour killing" .. it is only when it is a muslim that does it..

 

[PeteEU]

there's plenty of places in the US where Muslims are integrated

And there are plenty of places in Europe where Muslims are fully integrated.. your point being?

 

[mbig]

Tolerant Dutch Wrestle With Tolerating Intolerance
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/14/weekinreview/14bawe.html
Bruce Bawer/Nov 2004

"....But underneath the show of gezelligheid, Dutch life these days is far from cozy and communal. The vicious killing on Nov. 2 of Theo van Gogh, the director of a recent film that criticized the treatment of women under Islam, shocked a nation where only two years earlier the politician Pim Fortuyn was assassinated by a Dutchman reacting to Mr. Fortuyn's criticism of Islam.

Three days after Mr. van Gogh's murder, I traveled to Amsterdam to see for myself how things were going. It seemed a long time since 1999, when I lived in a largely Muslim neighborhood of Amsterdam only a block from the mosque attended by the man accused in Mr. van Gogh's murder. During my time there, I quickly came to see that the city (and, I later recognized, Western Europe generally) was a house divided against itself.

The division was stark: The Dutch had the world's most tolerant, open-minded society, with full sexual equality and same-sex marriage, as well as liberal policies on soft drugs and prostitution; but a large segment of the fast-growing Muslim population kept that society at arm's length, despising its freedoms.

Instead of addressing this issue, Dutch officials (like their counterparts across the continent) churned out rhetoric about multicultural diversity and mutual respect.
By tolerating Muslim intolerance of Western society, was the Netherlands setting itself on a path toward cataclysmic social confrontation? When I tried to broach the topic, Dutch acquaintances made clear it was off limits.

This reticence still applied in February 2002, when Mr. Fortuyn argued that radical Islam was capable of destroying and depleting his country.

His comments got him expelled from his party. Though many in the country shared his views, those views remained anathema to the political and media establishment. No more." ......"

 

[new coup for you]

And there are plenty of places in Europe where Muslims are fully integrated.. your point being?

that Muslim hysteria may be a regional problem...

 

[PeteEU]

that Muslim hysteria may be a regional problem...

The only hysteria there is, is being brought up by far right wing racist xenophobic parties like the BNP in Europe and right wing American's who hate Europe.. and not that is not denying there is not a problem among a minority of a minority population.

 

[mikhail]

The only hysteria there is, is being brought up by far right wing racist xenophobic parties like the BNP in Europe and right wing American's who hate Europe.. and not that is not denying there is not a problem among a minority of a minority population.

So disagreeing with Islam is akin to racism? I would love to put all my ideas and beliefs under a shield of religion.

 

[PeteEU]

So disagreeing with Islam is akin to racism? I would love to put all my ideas and beliefs under a shield of religion.

Did not say that. But the parties that more than often in Europe promote ideologies debated here against Muslims, are also more than often parties that promote out right racism.. BNP as an example.. either directly or indirectly. There is no doubt that they live and breath on the xenophobic fear and like it or not most xenophobia is based on how you look (skin colour and so on) than where you acutely come from.

 

[reefedjib]

Did not say that. But the parties that more than often in Europe promote ideologies debated here against Muslims, are also more than often parties that promote out right racism.. BNP as an example.. either directly or indirectly. There is no doubt that they live and breath on the xenophobic fear and like it or not most xenophobia is based on how you look (skin colour and so on) than where you acutely come from.

Here in America, it is my impression that Muslims are integrating quite well. There are some cultural differences, but new immigrant groups always try to preserve their traditions. Of course, there are differences between different Muslim groups as well. Many of the Arab Muslims seem to have traditional, male-dominated families. The women wear hijabs. They practice Ramadan, Eid, and other holidays. The Pakistanis are also very traditional.

The problem we are having is that there are Wahhabi funded groups trying to promote Islamic values. They have created Islamic schools that receive federal funds (religious schools are not supposed to receive funds). They are involved in the construction of large mosques. Most significantly, they are watchful for signs of discrimination. On one level, these things aren't a problem. However, when the stated objectives of these groups are the introduction of Sharia legal systems for Muslims, that is directly opposing the established legal system of the land. These same groups are promoting that.

On the issue of Sharia, my understanding is that many (not all - not the Turks for instance) groups are promoting this in Europe.

 

[alexa]

Here in America, it is my impression that Muslims are integrating quite well. There are some cultural differences, but new immigrant groups always try to preserve their traditions. Of course, there are differences between different Muslim groups as well. Many of the Arab Muslims seem to have traditional, male-dominated families. The women wear hijabs. They practice Ramadan, Eid, and other holidays. The Pakistanis are also very traditional.

The problem we are having is that there are Wahhabi funded groups trying to promote Islamic values. They have created Islamic schools that receive federal funds (religious schools are not supposed to receive funds). They are involved in the construction of large mosques. Most significantly, they are watchful for signs of discrimination. On one level, these things aren't a problem. However, when the stated objectives of these groups are the introduction of Sharia legal systems for Muslims, that is directly opposing the established legal system of the land. These same groups are promoting that.

On the issue of Sharia, my understanding is that many (not all - not the Turks for instance) groups are promoting this in Europe.

I would agree with you in not wanting the Wahhabi around and I know that that view is shared by most Muslims.

Sharia law as per family matters is allowed in the UK if that is the choice of both people. This is allowed by our law and has been going on since the early 80's. Jews have been doing something similar for around 100 years.

I think since 9/11 there has been a real trauma among Muslim communities with them being blamed for it and so on. This of course played right into the hands of the terrorists who pretty much guessed this would happen and were on hand to pick up recruits.


We have one of these groups organising a march for Sharia at the end of October.

http://www.Islam4UK.com (it seems to have regular times offline due to a database error but the link is correct and if not working now it will be later)


However we all live in ever changing societies. People re-integrate what has happened and think again.

We will need to wait and see how many people the above group manage to attract but their last meeting got only 40. I understand that there is also to be an opposing March by Muslims against this.

Stand tall against the extremists | Inayat Bunglawala | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

Marching against al-Muhajiroun | Shaaz Mahboob | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

Things happen in nations and communities and then they sort them out and move on.

 

[Tashah]

Sharia law as per family matters is allowed in the UK if that is the choice of both people. This is allowed by our law and has been going on since the early 80's. Jews have been doing something similar for around 100 years.

Israel has both civil courts and religious courts. The religious courts are limited in scope to domestic issues and family matters. All involved parties must agree to have a case adjudicated in a religious court. If a particular case is filed separately in both court systems (e.g. such as a divorce case), the civil court filing enjoys judicial primacy.

Some Western countries do allow the existence of separate religious courts. Typically, such proceedings cannot contravene secular law and all parties must pre-agree to have a case adjudicated in a religious court and abide by the court's decisions and directives.

Some Muslim nations (such as Egypt) also have civil and religious courts. However, religious courts enjoy judicial primacy in domestic/family cases and Sharia law is applicable. This is a tremendous advantage to males in areas such as divorce, child custody, and inheritance.

 

[alexa]

Israel has both civil courts and religious courts. The religious courts are limited in scope to domestic issues and family matters. All involved parties must agree to have a case adjudicated in a religious court. If a particular case is filed separately in both court systems (e.g. such as a divorce case), the civil court filing enjoys judicial primacy.

Some Western countries do allow the existence of separate religious courts. Typically, such proceedings cannot contravene secular law and all parties must pre-agree to have a case adjudicated in a religious court and abide by the court's decisions and directives.

Some Muslim nations (such as Egypt) also have civil and religious courts. However, religious courts enjoy judicial primacy in domestic/family cases and Sharia law is applicable. This is a tremendous advantage to males in areas such as divorce, child custody, and inheritance.

Yes, well as here it must be the choice of both people and not contravene with British law the only place where I have seen a possible problem so far is with regard to inheritance where I understand that girls get nothing (if my memory serves me right)

That clearly is a problem. I also think that in England you can leave your money to whoever you want to so there would be nothing to protect girls there. In Scotland on the other hand by law a person must leave a proportion of their inheritance to spouse and all children equally so I would imagine that any Muslim woman unhappy about her inheritance in Scotland could bring this to court.

We also had a program here about Jewish women in the UK trying to get a divorce. It seems to be incredibly hard. Again, if I remember correctly they can only get the divorce if the man agrees to give it leaving many women unable to get divorced and into new marriages. I know that in Israel that is an issue which is being addressed and sorted out but it seems to still be a problem for Jewish people outside Israel and of course particularly for those who are religious and want the blessing of their faith.

Muslims in the UK cannot yet do their own marriages though some are working towards it. I guess I should also point out that many Muslims just want to go by the British system.

 

[Tashah]

We also had a program here about Jewish women in the UK trying to get a divorce. It seems to be incredibly hard. Again, if I remember correctly they can only get the divorce if the man agrees to give it leaving many women unable to get divorced and into new marriages. I know that in Israel that is an issue which is being addressed and sorted out but it seems to still be a problem for Jewish people outside Israel and of course particularly for those who are religious and want the blessing of their faith.

Here is an informative primer...

Divorce

 

[PeteEU]

Here in America, it is my impression that Muslims are integrating quite well. There are some cultural differences, but new immigrant groups always try to preserve their traditions. Of course, there are differences between different Muslim groups as well. Many of the Arab Muslims seem to have traditional, male-dominated families. The women wear hijabs. They practice Ramadan, Eid, and other holidays. The Pakistanis are also very traditional.

First it depends on what you see as "integration". But other than that, there are huge differences in what type of Muslim immigrants the US gets versus what Europe gets. To get to the US it requires quite a bit of capital compared to getting to Europe. This mean that those that do go to the US are often far far more well off than those going to Europe. This also means the level of education for American Muslim immigrants is relatively much higher than for the European version. In Europe we have issues of illiteracy among our Muslim immigrants, especially the women. And ours are for the most part economic immigrants (both legal and illegal). It is also far easier to get to Europe (relatively speaking) than the US.

The problem we are having is that there are Wahhabi funded groups trying to promote Islamic values. They have created Islamic schools that receive federal funds (religious schools are not supposed to receive funds). They are involved in the construction of large mosques. Most significantly, they are watchful for signs of discrimination. On one level, these things aren't a problem. However, when the stated objectives of these groups are the introduction of Sharia legal systems for Muslims, that is directly opposing the established legal system of the land. These same groups are promoting that.

Same problems over here.. if you think they are problems.

On the issue of Sharia, my understanding is that many (not all - not the Turks for instance) groups are promoting this in Europe.

Well yes and no. Internally they often live under Sharia law, in those areas where Sharia law does not conflict with national laws. I have zero problems with that, as it is basically 2 parties agreeing things between each other. If one party disagrees then he can always take it up in the normal legal system. As for promoting Sharia law.. Sure there are such organisations with in the Muslim community, and some of them are frankly very bad organisations. But we live in a democracy and as long as they are not breaking the law, then there is not much we can do. After all Jews are allowed exactly the same conditions in their communities.

The problem is when the communities start to practice things that are illegal in national law... forced marriages and such. It is after all still a very small minority that does practice such things.

 

[alexa]

Here is an informative primer...

Divorce

Thanks Tashah, here is the link talking about the program I saw

Revelations - Divorce: Jewish Style - Channel 4

 

[akyron]

How have the immigrants themselves been a barrier to integration?

Refusing to integrate comes to mind.

Look up Sheikh Syed Mubarik Ali Shah Gilani sometime.

He has his own little islamic militia setup about 150 from NYC.

 

[akyron]

So disagreeing with Islam is akin to racism?.

I dont know about racism but its certainly against islamic law.


People whine about separating church and state around here all the time. Try living in an area where the Church is the state. A recipe for conflict premade.