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lyndie england

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GySgt said:
The enemy didn't need any special excuse to practice what they have practiced for decades against prisoners and hostages long before Abu-Graib.

I am glad that they threw the book at her. I expected them to let her off easy. While she was disgracing America and the National Guard by abusing prisoners and having fun, the real military was out fighting a war. They angered us all. My only question is why was she the only one that tried to get away with it by pleading innocent? On top of her unprofessionalism, she placed a lack of integrity and a lack of personal responsibility.

Great post, GySgt.

I wish she had gotten more years, but I am thrilled about her dishonorable discharge. She says she posed for those pictures to please her boyfriend? Hmmmm, then why did she look so happy in them? Do you all remember the picture of her pointing to the genitalia of several male prisoners with a cigarette in her mouth? Yeah, she looked like she was being forced to pose. If you truly are against something, your facial expression will show that. I didn't see that in any of the pictures of her. What I saw was a woman who enjoyed what she was doing. I hope she has fun in jail. Does anyone know what happened to her baby (the one she had with Grainer)?
 

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I knew this would happen they let her off to light . The feminist lobby have won again ....Could you imagine what the reaction had have been if this gross act had been perpetrated on women WOW ?
Because they were only men it made it more acceptable .
I want no part of Islam . I am not taking sides . To me the American nation are the greatest . My argument is with lyndie england who thinks like most feminist's that they are above the law . Anybody who has ever read anything by Andrea Dwokin know the sadistic pleasure they get from hurting men .
Look at the picture ...... she is getting great pleasure from it .
To do this kind of thing to another human being is not acceptable if you condone that you are as bad as the dogs that we are fighting .
:sword:
 

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GySgt said:
She got what she deserved. Those photos showed humiliation. Not torture. Even a military court must go off of the proof.

3 years behind bars? Doesn't sound like a slap on the wrist to me.

But you said earlier that you expected them to let her off easy. Did I misread that?

I understand your point to an extent, although some forms of humiliation are regarded as torture by the Geneva Conventions. Am I right? I don't have time to research it. Fact is, people get three years in prison for crimes much less heinous than sexually and otherwise humiliating captives in their care.

But you know, after reflection, I think these assholes' pennance would be more suitably paid by scrubbing toilets in Abu Ghraib for three years, rather than sitting in prison. Perhaps then they might have a "life-changing experience."
 

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mixedmedia said:
But you said earlier that you expected them to let her off easy. Did I misread that?

I understand your point to an extent, although some forms of humiliation are regarded as torture by the Geneva Conventions. Am I right? I don't have time to research it. Fact is, people get three years in prison for crimes much less heinous than sexually and otherwise humiliating captives in their care.

But you know, after reflection, I think these assholes' pennance would be more suitably paid by scrubbing toilets in Abu Ghraib for three years, rather than sitting in prison. Perhaps then they might have a "life-changing experience."

It just depends on how you define torture ..can you be tortured in your mind ?
alot of commentators think so ..Some even think it worse than physical torture ..Remember alot of these men were innocent .
A natural thought would be ...Will I ever see my wife and family again ?
To these men of different culture to ours : this was the ultimate humiliation.
If this had been your wife or daughter with a male guard deriving such pleasure from a gross act of humiliation I ask ...would you ask is it torture ?
 

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Windy said:
It just depends on how you define torture ..can you be tortured in your mind ?
alot of commentators think so ..Some even think it worse than physical torture ..Remember alot of these men were innocent .
A natural thought would be ...Will I ever see my wife and family again ?
To these men of different culture to ours : this was the ultimate humiliation.
If this had been your wife or daughter with a male guard deriving such pleasure from a gross act of humiliation I ask ...would you ask is it torture ?


Yes, I would say it is torture. I say flat out that I think these men (and according to reports there were women abused, too) were tortured.

Just an afterthought, though....
As a liberal and a pacifist I have been told many times on this forum and through the blanket statements of right-wingers that I am anti-American for my views on war and American foreign policy.

Now, I would think that people who so obviously and wantonly sully the principles that America claims to stand for are the ones who are traitors.

Is everybody here willing to state that the perpetrators of abuse and torture at Abu Ghraib are anti-American? Maybe even more anti-American than liberals and pacifists? I'm just curious.
 

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mixedmedia said:
But you said earlier that you expected them to let her off easy. Did I misread that?

I understand your point to an extent, although some forms of humiliation are regarded as torture by the Geneva Conventions. Am I right? I don't have time to research it. Fact is, people get three years in prison for crimes much less heinous than sexually and otherwise humiliating captives in their care.

But you know, after reflection, I think these assholes' pennance would be more suitably paid by scrubbing toilets in Abu Ghraib for three years, rather than sitting in prison. Perhaps then they might have a "life-changing experience."


I don't get what you are saying hear, but yeah. I did expect her to be let off easy. I expected that she would be slapped on the wrist because she is a female and she had a baby.

You're right. The Geneva Convention does outline some things that are mere humiliations as torture. The Geneva Convention is need of an overhaul. Some of these things that people are perceiving as torture is the same treatment we go through in Boot Camp here in the states. There are plenty of ways to break an individual down and to drill obedience and self discipline in them without torturing. Obviously, during this war, these ways have been exposed in a very public way and in some cases these ways have gone too far in some cases. The truth of the matter is, there is absolutely no way to fight a war and to maintain prisoners in a manner that is safe to the guards by following the Geneva Convention word for word. One also has to remember that most of the Geneva Convention was drawn up following the attrocities of the holocaust. The only defense of our bending of Geneva rules, is that we do not condone the obvious manner of torture. For example, sleep deprivation is an interrogation tactic. Recruits go through this and our own civilian Police Force practice this during interogations. It is not torture.
 

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GySgt said:
I don't get what you are saying hear, but yeah. I did expect her to be let off easy. I expected that she would be slapped on the wrist because she is a female and she had a baby.

That has no bearing on what she did. She should be prosecuted by the fullest extent of the law.


Some of these things that people are perceiving as torture is the same treatment we go through in Boot Camp here in the states.

Yea right. I highly doubt in boot camp, soliders in training are made to be in the buff, wearing women's underwear on their heads. Or, placed in a pyramid-like structure naked.
 

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TimmyBoy said:
I am sure, their is way to come up with efficient, cost effective alternative energy resources where we wouldn't have such a dependence on oil in our economy. I don't american lives are worth dying for oil when their is approach towards dealing with energy needs, such as finding alternative energy resources. I am sure their is a way. I know, I am not willing to die for oil.

You don't have to die for oil, but as long as our economy is riding on it and your American lifestlye depends on it, I will. And UNTIL, we have a better or different energy source, we are are stuck kissing Arab ass.

"Have you ever even studied the Qu'ran? How much do you really know about Islam?"

Studied? No. Read enough verses? Yes. Heard and read extremists views on it? Yes. In the decaying Arab world, Islam is the problem—because of the way bitter old men interpret and deform its more humane precepts while embracing its cruelest injunctions. This is a problem that has been escalading for decades. By there inability to grow with the rest of the world and holding on to age old practices of oppression, Islam extremists are making a gory mess of their faith. The suicide car bomb attacks on fellow Muslim civilians are a perfect indicator of the utter heartlessness and savagery of Islam in arms. And it is all executed under the facade of a "Jihad" and under the sanctions of "Allah".

"The United States is a leading terrorist state. People who work for the CIA have stated time and time again what a mistake it was to invade Iraq. One CIA operative called it a "Christmas gift" to Osama Bin Laden. But I assure you, that America has committed various terrorist acts and it is this reason that we are ourselves are the targets of terrorists. Osama Bin Laden always hated Saddam but he viewed the US invasion of Iraq as an opportunity to strengthen his organization. And he did. The invasion of Iraq has made Osama Bin Laden stronger. It has also made other Islamic terrorist groups stronger. It was a mistake. But the motive behind invading Iraq was not to "fight terror." It was simply used as a pretext to invade that country for oil. The people in the US government are not concerned for the safety of American citizens. They are only concerned with their own safety and with gaining more power. They could care less if American civilians die in terror attacks. If they cared for American citizens, they certainly would have not invaded Iraq and they certainly would have viewed September 11 as a tragedy rather than opportunity to pass tyrannical laws like the "PATRIOT" Act. Their was more than enough laws on the books to go after terrorists, it was just an excuse to pass laws to control people more and to slowly and gradually destroy what little freedom left that americans have."

This whole paragraph is warped and wracked with pessimism. C'mon, you've been listening to too many haters. How are we the leading terrorist state? Because we have installed dictators for a greater stability against the flow of drugs into our country and they happen to make a turn for the worse on their own people? Because we arm and train the likes of Bin Laden to fight the spread of Soviet Communism and then he turns on us years later? Because we backed Iraq and supported the Contras in Iran when the world needed neither to win for the "oil" stability just to witness Saddam turn on his own people? We can't controll everything. Worse than acting and messing up here and there, is doing absolutely nothing. As far as the various "acts" of our terrorism...name some. Name where we have lined up women and children and slaughtered them. Name an instance where we murdered groups of people because of their religion. Name on time where we looked for a group of civilians and destroyed them.

People who work in the CIA and military analysts have stated time and time again for two decades that the entire Middle East is the problem. I guess it depends on what you know, doesn't it?

Bin Laden isn't any stronger than he was. Do you think these "martyrs" loved us before Iraq? Do you think that a bunch of rogues are running around twisting arms to murder for their god? The entire world runs on oil. Is it fair the economies suffer because we won't allow the likes of Bin Laden to disrupt oil flow because of bigotted hatreds between Muslim sects? Are we supposed to stand by as Islamic extremists commit the holocausts of Christians and murder Buddhists, because doing otherwise might make the terrorists mad? The sooner more people realize that this is a civilization we are dealing with and not a handful of terrorists, the sooner we can get through it.

Patriot Act is tyrannical? Do you realize that the WTC bombing in 1993 was given to the FBI for jurisdiction instead of the CIA and because of this, the CIA wasn't priveledged to any information collected by the FBI? Are you also aware of the man in California that was arrested last week? He traveled to Pakistan, trained and came back to America with the intention of being part opf a "Jihad." The FBI tracked him in the US and then passed him off to the CIA when he went International. Something, before the Patriot Act, was illegal. You're right. What a tyrannical document. More negativity.

I think you may just be hearing what sounds good to you, so you pass it on.
 

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kal-el said:
That has no bearing on what she did. She should be prosecuted by the fullest extent of the law.




Yea right. I highly doubt in boot camp, soliders in training are made to be in the buff, wearing women's underwear on their heads. Or, placed in a pyramid-like structure naked.


Dude, that was the point. She was maxed. She was found guilty on 9 counts out of ten. She will spend three years in a Federal Prison. I, simply stated, that I expected her to be slapped on the wrist for those reasons. Arguing for the sake of arguing?

We stand naked on line in Boot Camp and we get dressed on order. Just how does me saying...."Some of these things that people are perceiving as torture is the same treatment we go through in Boot Camp here in the states."...mean that I said we wear our underwear on our head and build pyramids? Once again...you are arguing for the sake of arguing.
 

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GySgt said:
Dude, that was the point. She was maxed. She was found guilty on 9 counts out of ten. She will spend three years in a Federal Prison. I, simply stated, that I expected her to be slapped on the wrist for those reasons. Arguing for the sake of arguing?

Yes, I too expected her to be slapped on the wrist. I expected like 1 year's confinement, and not even a loss of rank.

We stand naked on line in Boot Camp and we get dressed on order. Just how does me saying...."Some of these things that people are perceiving as torture is the same treatment we go through in Boot Camp here in the states."...mean that I said we wear our underwear on our head and build pyramids? Once again...you are arguing for the sake of arguing.

I can't believe you would compare boot camp to how detainees were being maltreated at GITMO and Abu Ghraib. I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing.
 

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And in boot camp you have a reasonable expectation that you will make it out alive. It is not in any way the same as what went on at Abu Ghraib.

And the Contras are in Nicaragua. The deal was America sold arms to Iran and then funneled the proceeds to the Contra guerrillas in Nicaragua. I'm really surprised that you don't know this. But no man is an encyclopedia....even though you come close, GySgt.
 

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kal-el said:
I can't believe you would compare boot camp to how detainees were being maltreated at GITMO and Abu Ghraib. I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing.
Hey Gunny!

2 weeks at Gitmo or 2 weeks of the "crucible"...

What would the average American say after a 1 day example?

"Cuba"...here we come!:2wave:
 

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mistermain said:
I don't know if there would not have been a trial had the media never grabbed the story. I do know that the media gave more attention to this story than to anything else at the time. All this does is fuel the fire, and give the terrorists more "justification" in their mission to destroy us.

The media got hold of the story preciesly because there was going to be a trial. The Army had already been investigating before the media got this. Contrary to what many on the left like to go around saying this country and it's military ARE in fact very honorable and believe in justice.
 

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TimmyBoy said:
The terrorist activities of the US government is what gives terrorists the motivation for their mission to destroy us.

No statments such as your are what give terrorist and insurgence motivation for their mission to destroy us.
 

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kal-el said:
I can't believe you would compare boot camp to how detainees were being maltreated at GITMO and Abu Ghraib. I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing.

Yes you are. I said......."Some of these things that people are perceiving as torture is the same treatment we go through in Boot Camp here in the states."

I did not compare at all. Sleep deprivation, extreme physical fitness, placing your body in an extremely uncomfortable position and maintaining it, extreme emotional abuse, constant screaming and anxiety build-up, etc. are all practiced routinely in Boot Camp.

What is not practiced is beating, hands on abuse, water-boarding (big deal), rape (rediculous accusations with no proof of existing), barking dogs (big deal), and naked pyramid humiliations.

Now that I have expouned on what I simply stated in one sentence, are you still wanting to argue my point?
 
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mixedmedia said:
And in boot camp you have a reasonable expectation that you will make it out alive. It is not in any way the same as what went on at Abu Ghraib.

And the Contras are in Nicaragua. The deal was America sold arms to Iran and then funneled the proceeds to the Contra guerrillas in Nicaragua. I'm really surprised that you don't know this. But no man is an encyclopedia....even though you come close, GySgt.

But neither is Boot Camp a prison that houses criminals, terrorists, and thugs.

Of course, you are correct. I merely meant to correlate the two. I realize that I wrote in a way that describes something different. Sometimes, I get to thinking faster than I can type. This is the second time in two days that I have done this. Yesterday I married "Socialist" to "Democrats" right next to each other with out typing exactly what I meant in that context.
 

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Stinger said:
No statments such as your are what give terrorist and insurgence motivation for their mission to destroy us.


It gives them their "excuse" also as many Americans apologize after every terrorist attack for how we may have "wronged" them.
 

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GySgt said:
But neither is Boot Camp a prison that houses criminals, terrorists, and thugs.

Of course, you are correct. I merely meant to correlate the two. I realize that I wrote in a way that describes something different. Sometimes, I get to thinking faster than I can type. This is the second time in two days that I have done this. Yesterday I married "Socialist" to "Democrats" right next to each other with out typing exactly what I meant in that context.

Perhaps but in this country we supposedly stand for ideals such as innocent until proven guilty. Supposedly we are above treating people like animals. Comparisons to Boot Camp are totally irrelevant. And the chummy back-slapping about the ordeal of surviving it is, quite frankly, obnoxious. Either we believe that people should be treated like this in our prisons or we don't. Why don't we treat our own criminals like this? Perhaps when Ken Lay finally goes to prison we can all be treated to some pics of him with his ass hanging out at the bottom of a human pyramid or being dragged around on a leash. Then we can tell him its no so bad, its just like boot camp.
 

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mixedmedia said:
Perhaps but in this country we supposedly stand for ideals such as innocent until proven guilty. Supposedly we are above treating people like animals. Comparisons to Boot Camp are totally irrelevant. And the chummy back-slapping about the ordeal of surviving it is, quite frankly, obnoxious. Either we believe that people should be treated like this in our prisons or we don't. Why don't we treat our own criminals like this? Perhaps when Ken Lay finally goes to prison we can all be treated to some pics of him with his ass hanging out at the bottom of a human pyramid or being dragged around on a leash. Then we can tell him its no so bad, its just like boot camp.[/QUOTE]

You're right again...."in this country". Unfortunately, where we fight and deal with the immorality and savagery of our enemy, they do not.

Like I have said TWO times already, I have never said that "human pyramids" was acceptable or an act in Boot Camp.

Why do you people keep trying to get an argument where there is none?
 

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GySgt said:
You're right again...."in this country". Unfortunately, where we fight and deal with the immorality and savagery of our enemy, they do not.

Like I have said TWO times already, I have never said that "human pyramids" was acceptable or an act in Boot Camp.

Why do you people keep trying to get an argument where there is none?

So naked humiliation is a necessary component of dealing with this "immorality and savagery?" We know that not every captive at Abu Ghraib was dangerous. A lot of these people were picked up in sweeps and consequently let go. The way they were treated was simply uncalled for. I don't understand what is so hard about acknowledging that simple fact. People are going to prison for it. Obviously someone somewhere believes that what they did was wrong.

Boot camp was brought into the discussion with your own words and has been backed up by others with sympathetic feelings about this soon-to-be shameful episode in American military history. If boot camp is not to be compared with what happened in Abu Ghraib then why bring it into the discussion in the first place?

I don't understand anything other than utter condemnation of these acts. Attempts at justification only does America a disservice.
 

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TimmyBoy said:
I'm not taking anybody's side. I am just offerring my point of view. If you want to fight terrorism, stop participating in it and people will leave you alone.

So let me understand what your saying.........You think that what happened on 9/11/01 was justified?
 

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mixedmedia said:
So naked humiliation is a necessary component of dealing with this "immorality and savagery?" We know that not every captive at Abu Ghraib was dangerous. A lot of these people were picked up in sweeps and consequently let go. The way they were treated was simply uncalled for. I don't understand what is so hard about acknowledging that simple fact. People are going to prison for it. Obviously someone somewhere believes that what they did was wrong.

Boot camp was brought into the discussion with your own words and has been backed up by others with sympathetic feelings about this soon-to-be shameful episode in American military history. If boot camp is not to be compared with what happened in Abu Ghraib then why bring it into the discussion in the first place?

I don't understand anything other than utter condemnation of these acts. Attempts at justification only does America a disservice.

AND AGAIN....where did I ever say it was OK?

The reason I brought it up was because there is a lot of crying for what some people percieve as "torture" tactics when in fact we employ them on our own recruites. It was that simple a statement.

So once again...why do you continue to make an argument here?
 

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What happened there was not torture............Real torture is what happened at the Hanoi Hilton............
 

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GySgt said:
So once again...why do you continue to make an argument here?


It's very simple. Because all I read is excuses and remarks about "our enemies" and no correlating outrage on how our prisoners were treated while in our care. It hardly matters where we are or who we are mistreating when you purport to be a country that upholds the principles of human rights. Let's leave it at that though. Tom DeLay just resigned as House Majority Leader. It's party time.
 
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The reason I brought it up was because there is a lot of crying for what some people percieve as "torture" tactics when in fact we employ them on our own recruites. It was that simple a statement.


The difference is though that nakedness to an Arab is a whole lot different than nakedness to an American.....our culture(American) shrugs it's shoulders at nakedness while Arab culture is shocked and abhors public nudity....which is why that tatic is used (IMO) and should be used.....just be cautious of the "blow-back"
 
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