IDF senior officer killed in ambush by Lebanese Army sniper

[alexa]

What I want to know is what is it that indicates to you that the location of those pictures is the same location or even a close location to the place of incident?
I fail to see how such assumption can be considered reasonable, seeing that you don't base that on anything.

I know the area quite well myself, I know the incident took place some few clicks directly to the North from the Israeli kibbutz of Misgav Am, a kibbutz I'm quite familiar with.

Mira was certain where it was from the beginning. When I produced the BBC photos she was well pleased because she could see it showed the spot. I still was not sure. It was the hill that did it for me. The hill, the white railing fence and the stonework on the ground. Looks like the same location as the photos Mira sent me from her recent visit, pointing out that Israel was just across the road.

Prior to this incident Israel taunts and mock threats have been noted on this forum...so for me this looks more like the consequences of unprofessional behaviour.

If your Kibbutz is across the road from where Mira was standing then you both know the area.

 

[spud_meister]

so, by going by the assumption that the tree was in lebanon, why was an officer killed by sniper fire?

there is only one soldier across the border, and officers wouldn't be doing the manual labour, so why not just shoot the only person violating their border?

 

[Apocalypse]

so, by going by the assumption that the tree was in lebanon, why was an officer killed by sniper fire?

there is only one soldier across the border, and officers wouldn't be doing the manual labour, so why not just shoot the only person violating their border?

And that's if we take to two assumptions that this was Lebanese territory (it was not) and that they can shoot people who merely cut a tree in their territory.
There is no justification to the Lebanese attack.

Israel is going to ask the US and France to stop providing arms to the Lebanese army.

 

[Mira]

What I want to know is what is it that indicates to you that the location of those pictures is the same location or even a close location to the place of incident?
I fail to see how such assumption can be considered reasonable, seeing that you don't base that on anything.

I know the area quite well myself, I know the incident took place some few clicks directly to the North from the Israeli kibbutz of Misgav Am, a kibbutz I'm quite familiar with.

(Going to miss my train)

Apocalypse, you're trying to save your face in front of the forum members but you know very well that you're not telling the truth.
You do know the border and you do know that the tree was on the Lebanese side. You can lie to the forum but you cannot lie to yourself.

I even posted a picture of the kibutz Misgav Am, I was there, my pictures are accurate and you know it.

I reapeat, I think the whole incident is stupid, no human life is worth a tree, but also no enemy army has the right to tresspass the territory of a souvereign country.

End of the story.

 

[Apocalypse]

Mira was certain where it was from the beginning.

And I was certain that she's wrong from the beginning.
Again I see no indication that this is the same location.

When I produced the BBC photos she was well pleased because she could see it showed the spot.

Then perhaps she can show us why she believes it shows the same spot, I've yet to see her providing any indication beyond "it's a similar scenery", and that's not an indication since the entire border shares the similar scenery.

I still was not sure. It was the hill that did it for me. The hill, the white railing fence and the stonework on the ground.

You're not making any sense, the railing fence and the paving in Mira's picture are right next to the fence, while in the picture the Lebanese and the UNIFIL forces are standing on the same pavement while the fence is far away from them.
If anything that's an indication that Mira's claims are incorrect.

Prior to this incident Israel taunts and mock threats have been noted on this forum...so for me this looks more like the consequences of unprofessional behaviour.

I don't know what you're talking about, but I can refer you to countless provocations from the Lebanese side.
This is not unique to a border area between two hostile zones, however the attack is clearly unjustified and is an act of aggression, and so far even posters who usually take to anti-Israeli sentiments have recognized that.

 

[Apocalypse]

(Going to miss my train)

Apocalypse, you're trying to save your face in front of the forum members but you know very well that you're not telling the truth.
You do know the border and you do know that the tree was on the Lebanese side. You can lie to the forum but you cannot lie to yourself.

I even posted a picture of the kibutz Misgav Am, I was there, my pictures are accurate and you know it.

I reapeat, I think the whole incident is stupid, no human life is worth a tree, but also no enemy army has the right to tresspass the territory of a souvereign country.

End of the story.

Mira, the tree was located about 80 meters south from the blue line.
I know the area well and I know that the blue line is sometimes beyond the fence by dozen of meters and sometimes beyond the fence by only a few centimeters.
Your claims for "lies" and crap are not new to me, I already know how you react in such issues and what tactics you take to, and I'm not even intimidated by the slightest.
The Lebanese act of aggression and the unprovoked killing of the Israeli commander and the injuring of another will draw further consequences on the political ground, and hopefully this will be the last of it on the military ground.

 

[Apocalypse]

The UN has just given an announcement that the tree was on the Israeli side.
I'll be waiting for an article.

You two always cease to amaze me.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3930113,00.html

State officials expressed satisfaction at the UN statement saying that the trees uprooted by the IDF on the northern border were on the Israeli side of the border. Lebanon asserted that the IDF infiltrated Lebanese territory.

Edit: Also, another Lebanese soldier who was injured in the incident has just died from his wounds.

 

[Mira]

Mira, the tree was located about 80 meters south from the blue line.
I know the area well and I know that the blue line is sometimes beyond the fence by dozen of meters and sometimes beyond the fence by only a few centimeters.
Your claims for "lies" and crap are not new to me, I already know how you react in such issues and what tactics you take to, and I'm not even intimidated by the slightest.
The Lebanese act of aggression and the unprovoked killing of the Israeli commander and the injuring of another will draw further consequences on the political ground, and hopefully this will be the last of it on the military ground.

No Apocalyse the tree was in Lebanese terrirory and YOU know it.

This is all irrelevent. This was an incident between 2 legitimate armies on the border and it should have stayed as such. An Israeli commander was killed, a MILITARY. But Israel went ahead and bombed Lebanese VILLAGES killing 2 soldiers and journalist A CIVILIAN.

This time you cannot say that Hizbollah was hiding among civilians, Hizbollah wasn't involved. The Lebanese killed a military and Israel bombarded CIVILIAN villages.

I'm OFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF damt it !! I'm really going to miss my train

edit before I go. Shame on you Apocalypse for distorting the truth. YOU know very well what the border looks like, I was at that exact spot only in June and I posted pictures.

 

[alexa]

And I was certain that she's wrong from the beginning.
Again I see no indication that this is the same location.



Then perhaps she can show us why she believes it shows the same spot, I've yet to see her providing any indication beyond "it's a similar scenery", and that's not an indication since the entire border shares the similar scenery.



You're not making any sense, the railing fence and the paving in Mira's picture are right next to the fence, while in the picture the Lebanese and the UNIFIL forces are standing on the same pavement while the fence is far away from them.
If anything that's an indication that Mira's claims are incorrect.

When I have time I will check again but from looking at all the photos I believe that these pictures were taken where Mira says. There is no doubt left in my mind. I even remember her telling me there was a Kibbutz just across the border.

I don't know what you're talking about, but I can refer you to countless provocations from the Lebanese side.
This is not unique to a border area between two hostile zones, however the attack is clearly unjustified and is an act of aggression, and so far even posters who usually take to anti-Israeli sentiments have recognized that.

I think it was after one of the football matches when you and Mira had serious confrontation. The issue of soldiers behaviour came up. What I remember was Mira saying it was the Israeli's who were shouting the really provocative stuff. I also remember this not being denied. My memory may be wrong.

I have no doubt that both get up to this. I was just going on what I could remember. My point remains that in a situation where tension is high it is unprofessional for either or both sides to act provocatively to each other. Given that they have been doing this, I suspect the loss of lives of these five people may be a direct result of this provocation getting out of hand. It might be a good idea for both sides to chat to their army and impress on them the importance of acting professionally pointing out not doing so can cost lives.

 

[Apocalypse]

No Apocalyse the tree was in Lebanese terrirory and YOU know it.

The UN disagrees with you.
UNIFIL disagrees with you.
Israel and the IDF disagree with you.
I disagree with you.

Yet it is "a fact" that the tree was in Lebanese territory?
Do you not see how irrational it is?

 

[ido_]

Mira, the fact that there is a fence doesn't there doesn't make the land behind the fence Lebanon, there are many places along the border that the fence is far far away from the blue line, the fence was built on a line where it will be easy to protect and easy to build a road next to it, not on the exact location the blue line crosses.
The media says and UNIFIL agrees that the area behind the fence in this particular area was in fact Israeli, they say that the fence is about 80 meters from the border in this area, you as a Lebanise could easily stand there and take pictures but you were on Israeli soil when you did so because the fence doesnt mark the border.

As for the so called "warning shots". The officer who got killed is a Lieutenent colonel and he is from engineering reserve force, this is not an officer from a combatant group who will stick around during a heat of combat to exchange bullets, if he got shot, and even shot dead it means he was out in the open and was shot from an ambush. According to the reports he was standing behind the fence, yesterday in the news the reporter stood in the exact location (according to his words).

And on a different matter, I heard that the Lebanise Army forces along the border changed reacently and that now the 9th Shea division is along the border with a new enthusiastic division commander, this could well be a reason for a hothead in the Lebanise army to open fire on IDF troops

 

[Apocalypse]

Here's the article I've promised earlier:

U.N.: Tree at center of deadly clash was in Israel - World news - Mideast/N. Africa - msnbc.com

Tree in Lebanon-Israel clash was in Israel, U.N. says

MISGAV AM, Israel — The U.N. peacekeeping force confirmed Wednesday that the tree at the center of deadly clashes along the Lebanon-Israel border was in Israeli territory.

A day after a senior Israeli officer, two Lebanese soldiers and a Lebanese journalist were killed in a rare clash between the Israeli and Lebanese armies , Israel appeared keen to show it would not be deterred from operating in the area.

"We are continuing to operate. It will not be legitimate if they try to disrupt today, and we will have to respond," Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said on Israel Radio.

The United States and the United Nations urged both sides to show restraint amid fears of wider conflict, and the border zone fell quiet.

Lebanon's Hezbollah group, which battled Israel in the 2006 conflict, stayed out of the fighting on Tuesday. It began after an Israeli mechanical arm reached over a frontier fence to trim a tree whose branches, Israel's military said, were tripping anti-infiltration devices.

Israel said its soldiers were operating within Israeli territory and the tree was south of a border line drawn by the United Nations after the Israeli military's 2000 withdrawal from south Lebanon. Lebanon said the tree was inside its territory.

Lt. Naresh Bhatt, a spokesman for the U.N. peacekeeping force in south Lebanon, UNIFIL, said Wednesday they have determined the tree was in Israeli territory.

As I said I know the area quite well, and I knew that in that spot the road was at least a few dozens of meters south from the blue line, the Israeli-Lebanese border.
I'll expect an apology for the headache later on, Mira.

 

[donsutherland1]

Mira, the fact that there is a fence doesn't there doesn't make the land behind the fence Lebanon, there are many places along the border that the fence is far far away from the blue line, the fence was built on a line where it will be easy to protect and easy to build a road next to it, not on the exact location the blue line crosses.

That's correct. From today's edition of The New York Times:

The United Nations peacekeeping force in South Lebanon, Unifil, said on Wednesday it had concluded that Israeli forces were cutting trees that lay within their own territory before a lethal exchange of fire with Lebanese Army troops on Tuesday, largely vindicating Israel’s account of how the fighting started.

 

[Gardener]

Come on, now, folks. MSNBC? The New York Times? How dare you use legitimate news agencies when there are so many better sites at your disposal?

How can you expect us to buy into that when electronintifada, counterpunch, rense, jewwatch, prison planet, and serendipity form the basis of all our opinions on the subject?

 

[washunut]

Then you should be upset at this

A Canadian soldier's report from South Lebanon - CTV News

Should Lebanon kill 100 Israeli civilians because that?

Killing of civilians does upset me. If it was premeditated then Lebanon would have the right to protect it's citizens.

 

[alexa]

Apocalypse, I have been looking at my emails from Mira. She says the houses in the background of the first pic I put in in post 92 are a Kibbutz. Is this the Kibbutz you are talking about?

The Guardian provides some film of the incident. Video: Five dead in clashes at Israel-Lebanon border | World news | guardian.co.uk.

Although the UN has now said that Israel was in it's own territory it does appear that there is some lack of clarity as to where the borders. You can clearly see the UN waving at the Israeli's before anything happened and being ignored, though the Lebanese now say they used live fire first.

This is what I don't want to happen

United Nations: Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon has warned that an increase in tensions between Lebanon and Israel could lead to a new conflict with potentially devastating consequences. In a report to the UN Security Council, Ban accused both countries of violating the 2006 ceasefire resolution that ended the 34-day war between Israel and Hezbollah in southern Lebanon.

UN warns of possible new Lebanon-Israel conflict - Worldnews.com

I so hope that this is not people gearing up to war.

 

[CJ 2.0]

I am only concerned with clarifying the location. Earlier you said you believed the location was some where else. Given that Mira has been there only recently can we not trust her to know exactly what the situation concerning the border is now we have established the location.

OK, I don't quite understand why some posters here think they have more authority on the issue than officials because they took a few pictures, but here is something worth observing, from Google Maps (and yes, I get that having access to Google does not make me a professional cartographer).

So from this satelite photo (not sure whether it shows up or you have to click, having never attached an image on this site before), you can clearly see a few things.

First, Mira is correct, that there are portions of the border where what looks like the security fence around Israel is very very close to the Blue Line.

Second, it is equally obvious that there are places where that fence deviates significantly from the Blue Line.

Third, this deviation does not occur that gradually, and there can be significant deviation within 200 metres or less.

I think all that clearly mitigates towards accepting what officals from Israel and the UN are saying rather than what Mira says.

Nothwithstanding that she has taken pictures of the border somewhere close by in the past...

 

[CJ 2.0]

What I want to know is what is it that indicates to you that the location of those pictures is the same location or even a close location to the place of incident?
I fail to see how such assumption can be considered reasonable, seeing that you don't base that on anything.

I know the area quite well myself, I know the incident took place some few clicks directly to the North from the Israeli kibbutz of Misgav Am, a kibbutz I'm quite familiar with.

That's certainly helpful info. Attached is a satelite view of the area.

From the view, it is clear that, as I thought before, there are significant deviations in the distance between the Blue line and the perimeter fence over short distances.

So Mira, unless you have a picture of the tree itself and/or can point to its exact location on a satelite image, not sure you can say with any authority that you have any expertise or special knowledge on this issue.

 

[Gardener]

OK, I don't quite understand why some posters here think they have more authority on the issue than officials because they took a few pictures,

Some people started this pattern with their very first postings here, talking about themself as much or more than the actual issue, and doing so in order to try to establish this authority.

It is a very transparant tactic, easily identifiable as a tactic by those with an understanding of some of the techniques used in the dissemination of propaganda.

 

[alexa]

OK, I don't quite understand why some posters here think they have more authority on the issue than officials because they took a few pictures, but here is something worth observing, from Google Maps (and yes, I get that having access to Google does not make me a professional cartographer).

So from this satelite photo (not sure whether it shows up or you have to click, having never attached an image on this site before), you can clearly see a few things.

First, Mira is correct, that there are portions of the border where what looks like the security fence around Israel is very very close to the Blue Line.

Second, it is equally obvious that there are places where that fence deviates significantly from the Blue Line.

Third, this deviation does not occur that gradually, and there can be significant deviation within 200 metres or less.

I think all that clearly mitigates towards accepting what officals from Israel and the UN are saying rather than what Mira says.

Nothwithstanding that she has taken pictures of the border somewhere close by in the past...

Well I see nothing in your picture.:shock:

 

[CJ 2.0]

(Going to miss my train)

Apocalypse, you're trying to save your face in front of the forum members but you know very well that you're not telling the truth.
You do know the border and you do know that the tree was on the Lebanese side. You can lie to the forum but you cannot lie to yourself.

I even posted a picture of the kibutz Misgav Am, I was there, my pictures are accurate and you know it.

I reapeat, I think the whole incident is stupid, no human life is worth a tree, but also no enemy army has the right to tresspass the territory of a souvereign country.

End of the story.

What side of the Kibbutz were you facing? From the satelite view, the Kibbutz quite clearly abuts the border very clesely on its west side, but not from the North, where there is considerable distance.

If, as Apocalypse said, this incident was NORTH of the Kibbutz rather than WEST of it, then you would not have been in the place where the incident occurred, but ratehr fairly far away (at least 500 metres, or even more than a kilometer).

And, as is quite clear from the satelite image, the Kibbutz is not as close to the border to its North as you thought it was.

 

[CJ 2.0]

Well I see nothing in your picture.:shock:

uh-oh. Is there a problem? Should I be doing something else to get the images to show up? Never done this before.

If you can see it, I suspect the third image I tried to post would be the most helpful here. It shows the Kibbutz abutting the border on its WEST side, with a considerable distance between the border and the Kibbutz to its NORTH.

As a result, and this makes sense given what the UN is saying, if the tree was to the north of the Kibbutz rather than to its west, Mira's picture would not have been taken at the location of the incident, but in another part of town entirely.

Anyways, let me know if there are problems with the pictures and I will try to figure out how to fix it. Tips/suggestions would be welcome.

 

[Gardener]

uh-oh. Is there a problem? .

I can see it quite plainly.

 

[CJ 2.0]

I can see it quite plainly.

Oh - then there must be something wrong with your internet settings Alexa - you can try managing your Internet add-ons. That sometimes helps. Usually works for me with Java and Flash stuff, but not really sure why you would have a problem seeing image files.

 

[ido_]

What side of the Kibbutz were you facing? From the satelite view, the Kibbutz quite clearly abuts the border very clesely on its west side, but not from the North, where there is considerable distance.

If, as Apocalypse said, this incident was NORTH of the Kibbutz rather than WEST of it, then you would not have been in the place where the incident occurred, but ratehr fairly far away (at least 500 metres, or even more than a kilometer).

And, as is quite clear from the satelite image, the Kibbutz is not as close to the border to its North as you thought it was.

OMG, your picture shows a Lebanise house on Israeli soil, shame on this illegal settler!