IDF senior officer killed in ambush by Lebanese Army sniper

[CJ 2.0]

where is the buffer zone ?

I don't understandMira.We have numerous posters pointing out the particulars of the border at the location of the incident, with a wider buffer between the fence and the blue line, and you keep posting your own pictures from a completely different spot.

I know you mentioned the importance of experience in making points, but come on now. Just because you visited a border doesnot mean the border everywhere else looks exactly the same. As Apocalypse noted, some places have a wide buffer, and others do not. You cannot point to a place where the buffer is more narrow and say "see!!! The buffer is always narrow". It doesn't work that way.

 

[CJ 2.0]

There is a road between two fences where the Israelis patrol.

Lebanon has no reason and especially NO INTEREST to provoke Israel. Hizbollah did in 2006 and the country was levelled, the Lebanese army ?:doh, they never have provoked Israel I really don't see why they would now.

here is a reason - There is some pressure building on Hezbollah for the political murder it perpetrated.An externalenemy to unify around is a ... convenient distraction, no?

And you can't say that Hezbollah has not infiltrated the Lebanese army, any more than you can say Hezbollah has not infiltrated the Lebanese government.

 

[Apocalypse]

Lebanese army confirms: We fired first - Israel News, Ynetnews

Lebanese army confirms: We fired first

Lebanese army admits its troops opened fire at Israeli forces Tuesday; IDF officer: Lebanon has much to lose should it maintain belligerent attitude. Army says it will continue to cut down shrubbery on border in coming days

Hanan Greenberg
Latest Update: 08.04.10, 08:49 / Israel News

The Lebanon army's spokesman has confirmed Israel's claims that Lebanese forces fired first during Tuesday's deadly border skirmish.

In a statement issued to AFP and quoted by Lebanese daily al-Nahar Wednesday, the spokesman said that "the Lebanese Army opened fire first at Israeli soldiers who entered Lebanese territory…this constituted defense of our sovereignty and is an absolute right."

Earlier, a senior IDF officer told Ynet in the wake of Tuesday's deadly border skirmish that left an IDF commander dead.Lebanon has much to lose should it maintain a belligerent attitude and cooperate with Hezbollah.

And that's from earlier, which I've already pointed out three times by now:

BBC News - UN urges restraint after Israel-Lebanon border clash

UN peacekeepers in southern Lebanon say they have seen no evidence that Israeli soldiers had crossed into Lebanon, reports the BBC's Wyre Davies, from the border between the two countries.

Once more the Israeli security fence is not the blue line.

The Lebanese army has laid down an ambush and has hit two Israeli commanders (that weren't even in the area of the tree, they were far behind) with sniper fire.
Israel has informed the UNIFIL of its operation, as stated by the UNIFIL itself, and will continue to inform it throughout the future and specifically this day, since it's going to go back and return to the routine activity that the Lebanese claim has caused this incident, doing maintenance work along the border, including the cutting of trees.

 

[Mira]

I don't understandMira.We have numerous posters pointing out the particulars of the border at the location of the incident, with a wider buffer between the fence and the blue line, and you keep posting your own pictures from a completely different spot.

I know you mentioned the importance of experience in making points, but come on now. Just because you visited a border doesnot mean the border everywhere else looks exactly the same. As Apocalypse noted, some places have a wide buffer, and others do not. You cannot point to a place where the buffer is more narrow and say "see!!! The buffer is always narrow". It doesn't work that way.

The spot where the incident took place is just up the hill. It is set in the exact same way as the tree cutting picture. Look again at the pictures that alexa posted from the BBC. Notice the material used to make the pavement on the Lebanese side and compare it with one of my pictures.

Ok I'll give this another 5 minutes to explain and then I'm off to catch a train.

 

[alexa]

The Lebanese army has laid down an ambush and has hit two Israeli commanders (that weren't even in the area of the tree, they were far behind) with sniper fire.

This is the bit that concerns me and has been the attitude of Israeli's from the beginning. I just do not see any evidence to come to this conclusion unless psychologically you are wishing to build up a picture of tension which may lead to something bigger.

 

[Mira]

This will be my last attaempt to explain that there is NO buffer zone. The blue line in question is a road where the Israeli military vehicles patrol.

notice pavement in my picture

notice pavement in BBC picture.

exact same setting.

If anyone still says that the tree was on Israeli land, I rest my case

 

[Apocalypse]

This is the bit that concerns me and has been the attitude of Israeli's from the beginning. I just do not see any evidence to come to this conclusion unless psychologically you are wishing to build up a picture of tension which may lead to something bigger.

All of the evidence points towards an ambush.
The commanders were hit by sniper fire, the Lebanese army has had journalists 'tipped off', and I suspect that Hizb'Allah is somehow involved here.

Nevertheless this is a clear case of Lebanese aggression, they shot people because they believed they were cutting their tree.
Mira has earlier alleged that the Lebanese army has only fired warning shots, contrary to the facts on the ground where the first shots were the ones that have hit the commanders, however a few hours ago the Lebanese army has admitted it has fired first, while the UNIFIL soldiers who were at the place of the incident have stated that they have seen no evidence that Israeli soldiers have crossed the border.

 

[Andalublue]

There are by the way speculations that this has something to do with the coming decision regarding the Hariri murder.
If Hizb'Allah is to be accused, it'd want to turn the attention elsewhere, and Hizb'Allah already has a great influence on the Lebanese army.

Edit: UNIFIL says IDF activity did not warrant Lebanese fire

According to all reports I've read Hizb'ullah were not involved in the incident. This from the pro-Israeli, Daily Telegraph:
"While there was also relief that Hizbollah itself was not involved in the clash, many observers said that the incident underscored the increasingly fragile situation along the border."

 

[Apocalypse]

This will be my last attaempt to explain that there is NO buffer zone. The blue line in question is a road where the Israeli military vehicles patrol.

No, that's the buffer zone.
The blue line is at some locations where the pavement is in your first picture, but in the place of incident it is closer to where the Lebanese army and the UNIFIL are standing in that picture.

You have claimed earlier that Lebanese troops have only opened warning shots on the IDF.
They now admit to opening fire on the IDF first.
What's your reaction?

 

[Apocalypse]

According to all reports I've read Hizb'ullah were not involved in the incident. This from the pro-Israeli, Daily Telegraph:
"While there was also relief that Hizbollah itself was not involved in the clash, many observers said that the incident underscored the increasingly fragile situation along the border."

The Daily Telegraph is not pro-Israeli, lol.

However as I said there are speculations that the reason for the incident was the incoming ruling on the Hariri murder case, which is widely believed to be a Hizballah operation.

 

[Mira]

All of the evidence points towards an ambush.
The commanders were hit by sniper fire, the Lebanese army has had journalists 'tipped off', and I suspect that Hizb'Allah is somehow involved here.

Nevertheless this is a clear case of Lebanese aggression, they shot people because they believed they were cutting their tree.
Mira has earlier alleged that the Lebanese army has only fired warning shots, contrary to the facts on the ground where the first shots were the ones that have hit the commanders, however a few hours ago the Lebanese army has admitted it has fired first, while the UNIFIL soldiers who were at the place of the incident have stated that they have seen no evidence that Israeli soldiers have crossed the border.

What right do the Israeli soldiers have to cut a tree on Lebanese territory ???
Wether you like it or not, Lebanon and Israel are official enemies. The Lebanese army's job is to defend the Lebanese territory.
This is not a guerilla against an official army, this is n legitimate army against the legitimate enemy army.
When a Lebanese guerilla messes with Israel, Israel responds by turning the country into rubble.
If the Lebanese army responds to Israeli tresspassing, then Israel yells scandal.

I agree that this entire incident was stupid and a tree was not worth all the casualties, but Israel should not feel entitled to step into Lebanese territory whenver it chooses to.

 

[Mira]

No, that's the buffer zone.
The blue line is at some locations where the pavement is in your first picture, but in the place of incident it is closer to where the Lebanese army and the UNIFIL are standing in that picture.

You have claimed earlier that Lebanese troops have only opened warning shots on the IDF.
They now admit to opening fire on the IDF first.
What's your reaction?

The spot is right up the hill and it has the exact same setting as you can see in the pictures. the tree was clearly on Lebanese territory.

I claimed what was being said yesterday. The news of the Lebanese army admitting is a new development. I don't monitor news in my sleep you know ?

 

[Apocalypse]

What right do the Israeli soldiers have to cut a tree on Lebanese territory ???
Wether you like it or not, Lebanon and Israel are official enemies. The Lebanese army's job is to defend the Lebanese territory.
This is not a guerilla against an official army, this is n legitimate army against the legitimate enemy army.
When a Lebanese guerilla messes with Israel, Israel responds by turning the country into rubble.
If the Lebanese army responds to Israeli tresspassing, then Israel yells scandal.

I agree that this entire incident was stupid and a tree was not worth all the casualties, but Israel should not feel entitled to step into Lebanese territory whenver it chooses to.

Your claim that Israel has stepped into Lebanese territory is a baseless claim. UNIFIL soldiers who've been to the scene have stated otherwise.

 

[Apocalypse]

The spot is right up the hill and it has the exact same setting as you can see in the pictures. the tree was clearly on Lebanese territory.

Most of the Israeli-Lebanese border area is sharing "the same setting".
I'm afraid however that this specific location is quite far from the area where the incident took part at.

I claimed what was being said yesterday. The news of the Lebanese army admitting is a new development. I don't monitor news in my sleep you know ?

No, yet you've claimed it as if it was true, without even questioning your source, and now it appears that you were wrong.
The Lebanese have opened fire on Israel, whether because they've cut a tree in their territory or not would not really change the fact that the Lebanese are at fault here, you don't shoot people because they cut a tree in your territory.
And again, I've seen no indication that it is their territory, and in fact knowing the area I know that it is not.

 

[Mira]

Your claim that Israel has stepped into Lebanese territory is a baseless claim. UNIFIL soldiers who've been to the scene have stated otherwise.

The tree was on Lebanese territory, you can yell all you want, it doesn't change anything. Period.
I even posted photographs to show you how the border is built.
You know it of course but you're playing games.

 

[Apocalypse]

The tree was on Lebanese territory, you can yell all you want, it doesn't change anything. Period.

Your claim that the tree was in Lebanese territory is a baseless claim.

I even posted photographs to show you how the border is built.
You know it of course but you're playing games.

Your photos have failed to show where the blue line is.

Now as I said, even if the tree was in Lebanese territory the Lebanese attack was unjustified.
So even if we go by your assumption that the tree was in Lebanese territory, do you really justify the attack?

 

[alexa]

Mira I think the two pictures of the border you sent me show this to be this location better than the one you have put up.

 

[Mira]

Most of the Israeli-Lebanese border area is sharing "the same setting".
I'm afraid however that this specific location is quite far from the area where the incident took part at.



No, yet you've claimed it as if it was true, without even questioning your source, and now it appears that you were wrong.
The Lebanese have opened fire on Israel, whether because they've cut a tree in their territory or not would not really change the fact that the Lebanese are at fault here, you don't shoot people because they cut a tree in your territory.
And again, I've seen no indication that it is their territory, and in fact knowing the area I know that it is not.

The Lebanese press yesterday was saying that the Army only fired warning shots in the air. I haven't checked the news today, still having coffee and learned the news in here that the Lebanese army has admitted.

Anyone who has eyes and can look at a picture understands that teh tree was ON LEBANESE TERROTORY.

If you asked me, it's not worth shooting at Israeli soldiers because of a tree, but I guess it's a matter of honour and principle. What business do Israeli soldiers have to cut a tree on Lebanese terroitory ?

Ok, I'm not goint to miss my train because of this ****e.

Believe what you want, in any case you will beleive what you want to believe, even if I showed you a rabbit and you want it to be a donkey, you'll insist that it's a donkey. Remember the case of the school girl who was shot by an Israeli officer ? With dozens of witnesses around (including Israeli soldiers) ALL saying the same thing and yet Apocalypse insited that it was a case of collective hallucination.


I'm off to the mountains, away from this crap. Hope there won't be an internet connection over there.

 

[Apocalypse]

Mira I think the two pictures of the border you sent me show this to be this location better than the one you have put up.

Those pictures as well fail to show where the blue line is.

Perhaps you can elaborate as to why you believe that those pictures show where the blue line is, alexa?

 

[Mira]

Mira I think the two pictures of the border you sent me show this to be this location better than the one you have put up.

Yes alexa and I emailed you these a while ago. The one on the right is the exact same spot where the incident took place and it's just up the hill from the picure on the left.

 

[Apocalypse]

Anyone who has eyes and can look at a picture understands that teh tree was ON LEBANESE TERROTORY.

I disagree, the pictures fail to spot the blue line and show no indication that the area was Lebanese territory.
UNIFIL soldiers who have witnessed the incident and have seen the soldiers cut the tree have stated that there is no indication that the soldiers have been in Lebanese territory.

If you asked me, it's not worth shooting at Israeli soldiers because of a tree

So you admit it was an unjustified attack.

What business do Israeli soldiers have to cut a tree on Lebanese terroitory ?

The tree was cut down as part of the lessons learned from the 2006 war with Hizb'allah.
Its soldiers have used such places to ambush the Israeli patrol and kidnapp the two soldiers.
Cutting the tree down can improve the sight of the Israeli patrol.

Believe what you want, in any case you will beleive what you want to believe, even if I showed you a rabbit and you want it to be a donkey

I believe facts alone, it is a fact that the tree was located 80 meters south to the blue line and it is a fact that UNIFIL soldiers said that Israeli soldiers were not in Lebanese land.
You just can't admit that the Lebanese army has taken an act of aggression, even when the Lebanese admit it.

 

[alexa]

Those pictures as well fail to show where the blue line is.

Perhaps you can elaborate as to why you believe that those pictures show where the blue line is, alexa?

I am only concerned with clarifying the location. Earlier you said you believed the location was some where else. Given that Mira has been there only recently can we not trust her to know exactly what the situation concerning the border is now we have established the location.

 

[Mira]

I am only concerned with clarifying the location. Earlier you said you believed the location was some where else. Given that Mira has been there only recently can we not trust her to know exactly what the situation concerning the border is now we have established the location.

No alexa, Mira is Lebanese. You should only believe Israelis even when they are posters on a public forum.

I'm offfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

 

[Apocalypse]

I am only concerned with clarifying the location. Earlier you said you believed the location was some where else. Given that Mira has been there only recently can we not trust her to know exactly what the situation concerning the border is now we have established the location.

What I want to know is what is it that indicates to you that the location of those pictures is the same location or even a close location to the place of incident?
I fail to see how such assumption can be considered reasonable, seeing that you don't base that on anything.

I know the area quite well myself, I know the incident took place some few clicks directly to the North from the Israeli kibbutz of Misgav Am, a kibbutz I'm quite familiar with.

 

[Apocalypse]

And in case someone was wondering, I've just read an update saying that the IDF has finished taking down that tree, this time with increased back-up in case of another Lebanese attack.

It says it would continue the routine activity of maintenance work and trees cutting in its side of the border.