"I do not want to be English..."

[Infinite Chaos]

Yes, it is funny, isn't it. I think I made that very same point a few posts ago about English identity. It only exists in its negative connotations.

Which you clearly identified as school teachers telling you how bad England was and how awful it was to be English..

You clearly haven't had the pleasure of watching countless Newsnight debates with outraged Tory MPs bellyaching about it.

There is a groundswell too, regional parliaments were rejected a while ago but since then the rise in Scottish Nationalism has brought about greater feeling of a need for an English say on English matters.

As Paul points out - Scottish Nationalism is a thing to celebrate and endorse while any similar feelings democratically asked for in England are to be denounced as xenophobia, shameful (see Billy Bragg post by Manc Skipper) etc etc.

Two more questions: Are you saying I've been reticent or unclear about where I stand? You honestly don't know what i think about nationalism?

I've read your posts Andy, Englishness is something to abolish or denounce. Those British citizens not living in Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland should not have or aspire to any kind of shared identity.

Clearly.

I have posted on this before, I live up here and it was a Scot who described small little insults such as a multi faced clock tower with the one face looking north not having a clockface etc. These are recent events - not the original reiver hatreds. I'm not from the area so I hear the comments and am not ignorant of old hatreds.

 

[Andalublue]

See, that's it Andy you are basing your opinion on how you feel, personally. I never had that sort of feeling growing up, England was always talked about in positive terms. My experience, from my time in the Army with many good friends from Yorkshire was also very different to what you explain. Yes there was natural city rivalry, but bar the mad 'Geordies' they were passionate about England to the core. On this issue, I do feel you talk for a minority view. That you feel very little about your country of birth, is alien to me, if I'm honest.

Well, isn't your opinion based on personal feelings too? Military types are much more likely to take your view because that was your very reason of existence as a soldier, but I don't hink my view is a minority one as much as you claim. Paul Mason certainly shares it, as do many, many people . I think ex-military personnel are a very small minority, and I don't believe very many people share their well-trained patriotism. That's not a very representative demographic on which to base your opinion.

 

[Andalublue]

It only exists in its negative connotations! That is a very prejudice position to hold. Funny, when we alert you to the rise of Scottish nationalism, you speaking endearingly of that, but not of England. Very odd. It reminds of the clanger the Labour MP made during the election campaign, over someone having English flags outside his home. She immediately jumped on the 'he must be a racist ' bandwagon.

If you can quote where I've talked in glowing terms about Scottish nationalism, you may have a point. Fact is, I haven't. I have a sneaking respect for the Sturgeon - good politician, certainly performed the best of all party leaders during the campaign, and I do admire the SNP somewhat, but not for their nationalism, for their socialism.

 

[Andalublue]

Which you clearly identified as school teachers telling you how bad England was and how awful it was to be English.

Where did I say that? I wish you two would stop making up stuff I have never said. Quote me where I said that?

There is a groundswell too, regional parliaments were rejected a while ago but since then the rise in Scottish Nationalism has brought about greater feeling of a need for an English say on English matters.

I don't think that's a groundswell. What's the opposite of a groundswell? Something that emerges into the political consciousness from above, not below.

As Paul points out - Scottish Nationalism is a thing to celebrate and endorse while any similar feelings democratically asked for in England are to be denounced as xenophobia, shameful (see Billy Bragg post by Manc Skipper) etc etc.

I'll leave celebrations of nationalism to nationalists. If you can't see that one can admire the SNP without admiring nationalism then you have a very simplistic political sensibility. I dislike nationalism. Period.

I've read your posts Andy, Englishness is something to abolish or denounce. Those British citizens not living in Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland should not have or aspire to any kind of shared identity.

I'm not denouncing it, nor have I done, there you go making s*** up again. I'm just saying that it doesn't exist. I think a shared English identity is an invention much greater in its impact on the pages of the Daily Mail than in the hearts of English people. I think you, Higgins and Gunner have a very skewed idea of how people feel, distorted by a period of immersion into the cult of nation by your time in uniform. That's understandable, but to project that patriotic fervour onto large numbers of your fellow citizens seems to be half-baked at best.

 

[LeoVlaming]

I'll leave celebrations of nationalism to nationalists. If you can't see that one can admire the SNP without admiring nationalism then you have a very simplistic political sensibility. I dislike nationalism. Period.

That's like saying you dislike Nazism but admire the Nazi Party.

 

[alexa]

Scottish Nationalism is not what the Independence debate is about. My daughter came round after voting last week and said 'When will they change their name. I never thought I would vote for a party with Nationalist in it's name'.


I think the thread has got to comparing different things. Scottish Nationalism viewed through the lens of what is perceived as English Nationalism is no more accepted in Scotland than English Nationalism.

I think the intention to focus the Independence debate on Nationalism is one to give misinformation to people in England. One way in which this can be seen that it is not the same is in who was allowed to vote for Independence and that was anyone who was resident in Scotland regardless of where they came from in the world provided they registered whereas people of Scottish heritage not living in Scotland did not have the vote.

Scotland shares her identity with all the people who live here regardless of where they come from and that includes the English. One way in which this seemingly wild nationalism in Scotland has been portrayed in England is through papers like the Mail talking about Cybernats. Here is a link to one of our resident English Cybernats. You can tell he is one because it is one of the ways he describes himself

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/

More information on Cybernats


Logic's Rock: "Proud Cybernat" badges on sale now - As advertised in the Scottish Daily Mail!

I am sorry I have rushed in in putting this in and when I now have to run but I think at the moment people are suggesting people accept a kind of Nationalism in Scotland which they do not accept in England when the reality is that people who argue against do not accept this kind of Nationalism anywhere. The SNP really should change it's name.

 

[Andalublue]

That's like saying you dislike Nazism but admire the Nazi Party.

If the Nazi party had behaved like social democrats, rather than like national-socialists, then that might be true. The SNP's brand of civic nationalism is strong on social democracy and very, very light on nationalism. Compare them to the British National Party or the French Front National to see that the fact that the word 'national' appears in the titles of all three parties doesn't really mean they share anything at all in the political sense.

 

[LeoVlaming]

If the Nazi party had behaved like social democrats, rather than like national-socialists, then that might be true. The SNP's brand of civic nationalism is strong on social democracy and very, very light on nationalism. Compare them to the British National Party or the French Front National to see that the fact that the word 'national' appears in the titles of all three parties doesn't really mean they share anything at all in the political sense.

You are confusing nationalism with ethnic racism. The SNP is not "light on nationalism". Nationalism is the central tenet of the SNP's program and independence its most important goal.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Where did I say that? I wish you two would stop making up stuff I have never said. Quote me where I said that?

Spot on, Alexa. When I was at school the emphasis was definitely more about taking pride in Yorkshire achievements than in English ones. It was a bit like that Goodness Gracious Me sketch in which every great historical figure is Indian /Yorkshire. We were encouraged to feel good about our homeland, it's just that it wasn't England so much as God's Own Country.

If you've ever been on the other side of education you will know about "positive reinforcement" and "negative reinforcement."

 

[Andalublue]

If you've ever been on the other side of education you will know about "positive reinforcement" and "negative reinforcement."

We had positive reinforcement of Yorkshire history/culture/identity, and precious little of English. I don't ever remember any anti-Englishness at all. But I guess that positive reinforcement towards our Yorkshire-ness worked to undermine the development of that English identity you boys in uniform place so much trust it. I grew up and went to school in a very, very conservative (and Conservative) area. English culture history etc was viewed very positively, but just not very actively, or not recognised as English, so much as Yorkshire.

 

[Andalublue]

You are confusing nationalism with ethnic racism. The SNP is not "light on nationalism". Nationalism is the central tenet of the SNP's program and independence its most important goal.

You're wrong, but I've decided I won't debate with you, as you refuse to debate at all.

 

[LeoVlaming]

Some people want only to "debate" with people who just agree with them.

 

[Gardener]

This thread sure does have a lot of words devoted to the subject matter, but it seems to me that the underlying themes really have to do with post-colonial guilt, political correctness, and all the myriad ways in which people are influenced, not necessarily by some central authority, but by each other.

In this post-modern age of identity politics, certain identities are encouraged and certain discouraged, and these identities are all dependent upon whether they have been associated historically as the oppressor or the oppressed.

Here in the States, I get a lot more cred when I refer to the predominant Irish side of my Father's ancestry than I do the English side of my Mother's.

 

[Higgins86]

So you're proud to be English, but you can't tell us what that means.

I can tell you exactly what that means, just waiting on you to tell me what these famous scottish, welsh ect traits are.

 

[Higgins86]

This thread sure does have a lot of words devoted to the subject matter, but it seems to me that the underlying themes really have to do with post-colonial guilt, political correctness, and all the myriad ways in which people are influenced, not necessarily by some central authority, but by each other.

In this post-modern age of identity politics, certain identities are encouraged and certain discouraged, and these identities are all dependent upon whether they have been associated historically as the oppressor or the oppressed.

Here in the States, I get a lot more cred when I refer to the predominant Irish side of my Father's ancestry than I do the English side of my Mother's.

Thats also because Americans refer to the Irish as some sort of fun loving cartoon character.

 

[Gardener]

Thats also because Americans refer to the Irish as some sort of fun loving cartoon character.

My nose turns a very delightful shade of pink when I drink heavily, I'll have you know!

 

[Andalublue]

I can tell you exactly what that means, just waiting on you to tell me what these famous scottish, welsh ect traits are.

I already told you, I'm English. How can I define someone else's national identity? The best I could do would be riven with stereotypes and inaccuracies. I'm not asking you to speculate on what someone else might feel, but tell us how you feel your Englishness yourself. What does it mean to you to be English? I'm not sure why you seem to be having such trouble with it. You see Higgins, I suspect that we may both feel similar sentiments, but you will ascribe it to Englishness, me to Yorkshireness or working class-ness, and someone else to Britishness.

See my point?

 

[Higgins86]

I already told you, I'm English. How can I define someone else's national identity? The best I could do would be riven with stereotypes and inaccuracies. I'm not asking you to speculate on what someone else might feel, but tell us how you feel your Englishness yourself. What does it mean to you to be English? I'm not sure why you seem to be having such trouble with it. You see Higgins, I suspect that we may both feel similar sentiments, but you will ascribe it to Englishness, me to Yorkshireness or working class-ness, and someone else to Britishness.

See my point?

Well I have never spent long in any paticular region of the UK due to being a military brat, for me being English means a lot to me and many things make me proud to be English.

- I love how stoic we are as a nation.
- I love how reserved we can be and how polite we are as a whole.
- Our history is glorious. From our Castles, our Navy, Empire etc.
- I’m proud that sports like Rugby, Football, Cricket etc are played and embraced all over the world.
- Our ability to laugh at ourselves and others even if it’s not really appropriate.
- I’m proud that a small town in Wiltshire could come to a standstill every time a soldier’s coffin came home.
- I am proud that whenever we have been called upon England has answered.



Honestly Andy I could go on and on.

 

[Manc Skipper]

Nobody does stoic like the Scots, masters of the magnificent defeat!
If we were less reserved and polite, we would point out we beat you there too.
Our history is glorious, with castles, Navy, (America's) and Empire (We were the BRITISH empire's shock troops.)
Golf is our second most famous export after soccer...
It's appropriate....
I'll give you Royal Wootton Basset, though now Lyneham's closed, the only excitement there is market day.
When was the last call England answered? It must have been before 1797 and the Act of Union.

Slippery thing, nationalism.

A lighthearted take with some valid points.
The formula for Scottishness - BBC News

 

[gunner]

I already told you, I'm English. How can I define someone else's national identity? The best I could do would be riven with stereotypes and inaccuracies. I'm not asking you to speculate on what someone else might feel, but tell us how you feel your Englishness yourself. What does it mean to you to be English? I'm not sure why you seem to be having such trouble with it. You see Higgins, I suspect that we may both feel similar sentiments, but you will ascribe it to Englishness, me to Yorkshireness or working class-ness, and someone else to Britishness.

See my point?

But it doesn't matter what some else feel that makes them English, because you'll simply counter that list and explain it away in your terms. Your argument, for a lack of Englishness, is cogent enough expressed in your terms, but for me, it's alien. Funny, I rarely talk to my work mates about anything on this board, but today I did. From over a dozen people I asked what they thought and are they proud to be English, it was 100% yes. Of course, they mostly started with a prerequisite gripe, but ended by saying "I'm still proud of my country". I'm glad for their replies, it's such a nice inner feeling to be proud of your nation

 

[gunner]

Nobody does stoic like the Scots, masters of the magnificent defeat!
If we were less reserved and polite, we would point out we beat you there too.
Our history is glorious, with castles, Navy, (America's) and Empire (We were the BRITISH empire's shock troops.)
Golf is our second most famous export after soccer...
It's appropriate....
I'll give you Royal Wootton Basset, though now Lyneham's closed, the only excitement there is market day.
When was the last call England answered? It must have been before 1797 and the Act of Union.

Slippery thing, nationalism.

A lighthearted take with some valid points.
The formula for Scottishness - BBC News

Unless it's Scottish, Welsh or Irish

 

[Higgins86]

Nobody does stoic like the Scots, masters of the magnificent defeat!
If we were less reserved and polite, we would point out we beat you there too.
Our history is glorious, with castles, Navy, (America's) and Empire (We were the BRITISH empire's shock troops.)
Golf is our second most famous export after soccer...
It's appropriate....
I'll give you Royal Wootton Basset, though now Lyneham's closed, the only excitement there is market day.
When was the last call England answered? It must have been before 1797 and the Act of Union.

Slippery thing, nationalism.

A lighthearted take with some valid points.
The formula for Scottishness - BBC News

But I'm not talking about Britain I'm talking about England. I understand that we have been part of Britain for many conflicts but our sacrifice has always been greater given the fact we are the larger country and are often the target. Lets be honest most of hitlers bombs were smashing English cities.

As for football I believe it's called the cambridge rules not the Glasgow rules.

 

[gunner]

We had positive reinforcement of Yorkshire history/culture/identity, and precious little of English. I don't ever remember any anti-Englishness at all. But I guess that positive reinforcement towards our Yorkshire-ness worked to undermine the development of that English identity you boys in uniform place so much trust it. I grew up and went to school in a very, very conservative (and Conservative) area. English culture history etc was viewed very positively, but just not very actively, or not recognised as English, so much as Yorkshire.

But isn't there inextricableness of Yorkshire--England?

 

[Higgins86]

Unless it's Scottish, Welsh or Irish

That's it mate. Ask any Scotsman and they will tell you that Scotland invited the TV etc. But when it come sto British achievments we are expected to say British.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

We had positive reinforcement of Yorkshire history/culture/identity, and precious little of English. I don't ever remember any anti-Englishness at all. But I guess that positive reinforcement towards our Yorkshire-ness worked to undermine the development of that English identity you boys in uniform place so much trust it. I grew up and went to school in a very, very conservative (and Conservative) area. English culture history etc was viewed very positively, but just not very actively, or not recognised as English, so much as Yorkshire.

Negative reinforcement takes many shapes and forms Andy, from violence such as smacking to portraying things in bad light to only showing certain achievements in a particular light.

What you're describing as your teachers picturing all things good as being from Yorkshire undermines that they may also be English. Nothing to do with having worn a uniform but more to do with how certain things can be shown in bad light.