"I do not want to be English..."

[Manc Skipper]

Only 25% of the electorate voted for the Tories? In England or the uk? Do you want to revise your numbers entirely while you have the chance?

36.9% of a 66% turnout.

 

[Andalublue]

36.9% of a 66% turnout.

You were 0.61% off the mark. Hey, answer that ringing phone, I think Peter Kellner wants to offer you a job. :2razz:

 

[Infinite Chaos]

You didn't quote any of my words. I just put you clear on what my feelings are for the PBI that died for King and Country, including my Great Uncle Wilf.

My original post here with your words quoted.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/223671-do-not-want-english-14.html#post1064622654

There's an answer there, but no question. "So I guess..." isn't a question, it's a form of saying " I see that you are..." and my response elaborates that I clearly view the indecisiveness and parlous leadership of the British government, being led by the nose by the military command, as a factor in the slide towards war. Now, do you care to elaborate? Do you reject that as a factor?

Cleverly done. Course it was a factor but there were greater machinations leading to confrontation as you would know if read more widely and looked at what else was happening and what Kaiser Wilhelm's greater plan was.

Which is?

Do you not agree that Wilhelm's meetings with his senior advisors in December 12 was part of the major lead up to Germany attacking France? Do you not agree Wilhelm had plans for "mitteleuropa" and a greater empire in Africa? German ambition in Belgium would have given them more ports for warships just across the sea from us.

 

[Andalublue]

Cleverly done.

Not clever, just consistent.

Course it was a factor but there were greater machinations leading to confrontation as you would know if read more widely and looked at what else was happening and what Kaiser Wilhelm's greater plan was.

I have read about it quite widely. I'm neither unaware of the Kaiser's startegy, nor did I discount it as a factor, an even greater factor, than the incompetence and culpable negligence of the British government. Sorry to deprive you of a 'gotcha' moment.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Not clever, just consistent.

No, you introduced that where it hadn't been before.

I have read about it quite widely. I'm neither unaware of the Kaiser's startegy, nor did I discount it as a factor, an even greater factor, than the incompetence and culpable negligence of the British government. Sorry to deprive you of a 'gotcha' moment.

Surprised at this recently, the discussion is about the lead up to the UK entering WW1. Try and stick to that - why do you believe a greater factor of UK entry to WW1 was the fault of the UK govt itself compared to other events that had already started in Europe?

Question is simple enough - an answer with links to illustrate your point would be appreciated as part of a discussion.

 

[Andalublue]

why do you believe a greater factor of UK entry to WW1.

You're probably surprised because your demons are making you read what you hoped I'd said rather than what I said. This has been happening quite consistently for some time now.

Tell me IC, where in, "I felt disdain and disgust at those who led the nation into, and then mis-led the nation throughout that entire blood-bath," or even "So, I guess you're one of those who believe that WWI was inevitable, that the Central powers were uniquely responsible and that the havering and indecisiveness of the British government played no part in the descent into the hell of war" do you find the assertion that I "believe a greater factor of UK entry to WW1 was the fault of the UK govt itself compared to other events that had already started in Europe?"

It's neither a stretch, nor out of the historical mainstream, to suggest that the Central Powers were not uniquely responsible for the slide into war, as I said in my first comment on the matter.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

You're probably surprised because your demons are making you read what you hoped I'd said rather than what I said. This has been happening quite consistently for some time now.

Tell me IC, where in, "I felt disdain and disgust at those who led the nation into, and then mis-led the nation throughout that entire blood-bath," or even "So, I guess you're one of those who believe that WWI was inevitable, that the Central powers were uniquely responsible and that the havering and indecisiveness of the British government played no part in the descent into the hell of war" do you find the assertion that I "believe a greater factor of UK entry to WW1 was the fault of the UK govt itself compared to other events that had already started in Europe?"

It's neither a stretch, nor out of the historical mainstream, to suggest that the Central Powers were not uniquely responsible for the slide into war, as I said in my first comment on the matter.

Tell you what, my demons tell me I'm dealing with a deliberately slippery customer.

 

[Andalublue]

Tell you what, my demons tell me I'm dealing with a deliberately slippery customer.

Those buggery demons of yours need some serious exorcism, eh? Would they be the same ones that convinced you to change your vote at the last minute for no apparent, politically consistent reason?

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Those buggery demons of yours need some serious exorcism, eh? Would they be the same ones that convinced you to change your vote at the last minute for no apparent, politically consistent reason?

My "demons" are fine - they are straightforward and don't weave tangled webs of deceit. As for my vote - having voted for right of centre politicians such as Blair and Thatcher I'm happy we won the day and have the chance to save the economy and nuclear shield.

 

[Anglo-scot]

Looks like I've missed the main argument on the thread about the English identity, which interests me a lot. I'm English, with a Scottish family, and considered myself British most of my life. But I've come to realise that this dual English / British identity is an oddity which I don't need. The biggest amount of anti-Scottish prejudice and paranoia I've seen since the referendum campaign has been from English unionists. They want Scots to be in the union so they can feel British - hardly a great foundation for a national partnership.

The absence of an English political identity (vacuum filled by skinheads) is a big issue for me, and explains why so many English people revert to Britishness to feel better about themselves. So my question to people who consider themselves British and English is this:

what will you do and feel if the other three UK countries go their own way?

 

[Infinite Chaos]

-- The absence of an English political identity (vacuum filled by skinheads) is a big issue for me--

Isn't this what happened in the 70's and 80's before the consensus feeling that the national flag was grabbed back from the far right and ultra nationalists? People have poo-pooed the idea of Englishness or pride in English achievements (and continue on this thread) leaving only the far right to hold onto the flag?

As I stated fairly early on, it's up to those of us interested in the idea to make it mean something and make it worthwhile. The fact some of those characteristics are shared by other nations is used repeatedly on this thread as some kind of proof it either is not part of Englishness as an identity or that it is proof that Englishness (or pride in it) cannot be allowed to grow.
However, we are quickly pointed out (without disgreement) about Scottishness etc.

-- what will you do and feel if the other three UK countries go their own way?

Northern Ireland's Unionists have often allied with the very far right in the UK, Nick Griffin always seemed to have a good reception at gatherings in N.I. before he was booted out of the party. I don't see the N.Irish going to far their own way outside devolution as there is a sizable Catholic population which would seek rejoining with Eire so my guess is N.I. isn't leaving the Union anytime soon.

Wales on the other hand only voted in 3 Plaid Cymru candidates and the rest of the country went Conservative and Labour. Labour primarily in the North and in South Glamorgan. Maybe because Wales has been part of the Union longer than Scotland then feelings of a separate nation are not as strong? That doesn't speak to the hate I often saw and felt for English students when I was at school in Cardiff many years ago. There was a difference even then - they could absolutely hate the English (I remember one kid used to get beaten up repeatedly for wearing an England shirt) but not wish to leave the union.

 

[Anglo-scot]

Isn't this what happened in the 70's and 80's before the consensus feeling that the national flag was grabbed back from the far right and ultra nationalists? People have poo-pooed the idea of Englishness or pride in English achievements (and continue on this thread) leaving only the far right to hold onto the flag?

As I stated fairly early on, it's up to those of us interested in the idea to make it mean something and make it worthwhile. The fact some of those characteristics are shared by other nations is used repeatedly on this thread as some kind of proof it either is not part of Englishness as an identity or that it is proof that Englishness (or pride in it) cannot be allowed to grow.
However, we are quickly pointed out (without disgreement) about Scottishness etc.



Northern Ireland's Unionists have often allied with the very far right in the UK, Nick Griffin always seemed to have a good reception at gatherings in N.I. before he was booted out of the party. I don't see the N.Irish going to far their own way outside devolution as there is a sizable Catholic population which would seek rejoining with Eire so my guess is N.I. isn't leaving the Union anytime soon.

Wales on the other hand only voted in 3 Plaid Cymru candidates and the rest of the country went Conservative and Labour. Labour primarily in the North and in South Glamorgan. Maybe because Wales has been part of the Union longer than Scotland then feelings of a separate nation are not as strong? That doesn't speak to the hate I often saw and felt for English students when I was at school in Cardiff many years ago. There was a difference even then - they could absolutely hate the English (I remember one kid used to get beaten up repeatedly for wearing an England shirt) but not wish to leave the union.

Ok thanks. The point I was making with my question is that Britishness is not something we can guarantee will go on forever. We need the other 3 nations to make it a geographical reality. But let's assume they leave us on our own. We won't have a British identity any more because Britain as a political entity will cease to be. All those years of investing in a British identity and neglecting the English one will be in vain. So how will we feel about our English identity? Probably pretty stupid. But the cultural entity of England can and probably will endure - after all it's based on the presence of the English people within the nation of England. So there can be a revival of Englishness but probably this will be painful to embark upon and people would rather not think about it.

As for the Welsh, expressions of hatred are obviously horrible but we must remember the level and longevity of their political oppression by the English is almost impossible for us to take on board - far worse than what we have done to the Scots. It's way down in the Welsh psyche. Healing the wounds of the Welsh vis-a-vis the English is a job most people don't see the need for or wouldn't want to embark upon, even if they glimpsed it. In my view, only Welsh independence would begin to set us right with them but that's not popular enough in Wales.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

-- But the cultural entity of England can and probably will endure - after all it's based on the presence of the English people within the nation of England. So there can be a revival of Englishness but probably this will be painful to embark upon and people would rather not think about it --

My suggesting someone will ask you to define what you mean by "Englishness" and "English people" means it won't happen now but you know it has happened repeatedly on the thread.

-- But let's assume they leave us on our own. We won't have a British identity any more because Britain as a political entity will cease to be. All those years of investing in a British identity and neglecting the English one will be in vain.

I think the answer is that there are few if any unique characteristics not shared by other nations - I doubt any such journey would happen overnight, culture and national identity are forged over time and a change from a general feeling of "Britishness" to "Englishness" is one for all those of us with those shared circumstance to agree. Even then, it won't be something permanent and will continue to evolve.

 

[joG]

My suggesting someone will ask you to define what you mean by "Englishness" and "English people" means it won't happen now but you know it has happened repeatedly on the thread.



I think the answer is that there are few if any unique characteristics not shared by other nations - I doubt any such journey would happen overnight, culture and national identity are forged over time and a change from a general feeling of "Britishness" to "Englishness" is one for all those of us with those shared circumstance to agree. Even then, it won't be something permanent and will continue to evolve.

I thought you guys were on the verge of feeling EUness.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

I thought you guys were on the verge of feeling EUness.

Personally I can see the huge benefits of being part of the EU; I see the benefit to our industries and workers / holiday makers but that doesn't make me a convert. I also see the other side of the coin (I see the irony of regionalism as a way Cornwall and other such "regions" want independence only to hand it over to the EU in return for direct EU investment for example) but that doesn't make a convert to ardent pro-EU supporter.

Personally, I am still open to convincing one way or the other.

 

[Andalublue]

I'm English, with a Scottish family, and considered myself British most of my life. But I've come to realise that this dual English / British identity is an oddity which I don't need.

Quite. Who does? It appears to me to be the case that there is such an absence of choice in British politics that people are turning to nationalist ideas to simply create some idea of an ideological difference between parties. The SNP has benefitted from that and differentiated itself from Labour, despite having ostensibly similar programmes. In England no one can really tell the difference between Tory, Labour and LibDem, so by making some big deal about national identity there is something to actually talk about, other than who will best manage the NHS.

The biggest amount of anti-Scottish prejudice and paranoia I've seen since the referendum campaign has been from English unionists. They want Scots to be in the union so they can feel British - hardly a great foundation for a national partnership.

Absolutely. I haven't been aware of any insults coming fown from Scotland about Cameron, the English etc, but loads going in the opposite direction; plenty on this very thread, for example.

The absence of an English political identity (vacuum filled by skinheads) is a big issue for me, and explains why so many English people revert to Britishness to feel better about themselves. So my question to people who consider themselves British and English is this:

what will you do and feel if the other three UK countries go their own way?

Those attracted to ethnic/regional/national identities, those who feel comfortable with their identity politics, will simply find new identities to grouch about. Cue Cornish, Yorkshire, Cumbrian, East Anglian, Wessex and London regionalist politics.

 

[Anglo-scot]

Quite. Who does? It appears to me to be the case that there is such an absence of choice in British politics that people are turning to nationalist ideas to simply create some idea of an ideological difference between parties. The SNP has benefitted from that and differentiated itself from Labour, despite having ostensibly similar programmes. In England no one can really tell the difference between Tory, Labour and LibDem, so by making some big deal about national identity there is something to actually talk about, other than who will best manage the NHS.

Absolutely. I haven't been aware of any insults coming fown from Scotland about Cameron, the English etc, but loads going in the opposite direction; plenty on this very thread, for example.

Those attracted to ethnic/regional/national identities, those who feel comfortable with their identity politics, will simply find new identities to grouch about. Cue Cornish, Yorkshire, Cumbrian, East Anglian, Wessex and London regionalist politics.

I think the SNP surge demonstrates that national identities are as real as ever. Westminster ignored Scottish views for so long that the allegiance of the Scots to the union drained away, and reverted more fully to their own nation. This didn't push them to towards European federalism but to fall back to their own historic national political identity. The Scottish political identity is now more real and vibrant than since 1707, IMO.

Political identities are fundamental to all of us, as people. If we don't acknowledge them, they still exist. They are not in my view an artificial channel for the expression of grievances, though of course they can be used as such - positively and negatively. The alignment of cultural and political identities - which the nation state does more or less - is for the me the starting point. Proponents of different arrangements such as a European superstate must also start from this point, as it is the current reality, and persuade us that the European political identity is worth shifting to. However, this discussion does not take place and so stokes national resentments as the EU exercises more and more executive power over us.

I think we English should examine more our withered political identity. Why is it so? I think colonialism and material excess entrenching class differences over more than a century has decimated our solidarity, which is the foundation for any national identity. The fact that some northerners cast around to consider joining up with Scotland begs this question.

 

[Anglo-scot]

Personally I can see the huge benefits of being part of the EU; I see the benefit to our industries and workers / holiday makers but that doesn't make me a convert. I also see the other side of the coin (I see the irony of regionalism as a way Cornwall and other such "regions" want independence only to hand it over to the EU in return for direct EU investment for example) but that doesn't make a convert to ardent pro-EU supporter.

Personally, I am still open to convincing one way or the other.

Have a look at FlexCit, which is a detailed working out of the Norway option. (eureferendum.com) This means a staged return of national sovereignty via the EEA. The EEA guarantees access to EU markets and a return to our seat at the WTO, which makes most trade rules which the EU implements. Scare stories about economic reliance on the EU need to be put to bed, because we won't suddenly find ourselves in the cold.

 

[Anglo-scot]

I thought you guys were on the verge of feeling EUness.

Depends on which guys you mean! So far, Germans, Dutch and English expats on this forum feel it or at least want to. Most English in England feel no particular warmth towards the EU and a good number are actively hostile to the EU project (like me).

 

[joG]

Depends on which guys you mean! So far, Germans, Dutch and English expats on this forum feel it or at least want to. Most English in England feel no particular warmth towards the EU and a good number are actively hostile to the EU project (like me).

It is really quite interesting. The EC was a great project until it overshot and became EU, Euroland, Schengenland etc. Now it has become a confused, muddley mess with practically no legitimacy.

 

[ataturk]

Are you all stuck in 1979 with this talk of skinheads? Shaved heads are pretty common for men and the far right do not espouse the skinghead look

 

[Anglo-scot]

It is really quite interesting. The EC was a great project until it overshot and became EU, Euroland, Schengenland etc. Now it has become a confused, muddley mess with practically no legitimacy.

In Britain, we were late to the party and in fact the European Project has always been long-term political union. We Brits thought that the Continentals just liked their pious and high-flown sophistry about European integration blah blah, because it never interested us and sounded Utopian. But the reality is that these words have been taken at face value and implemented for 60 years now. There is no way to reverse the process - we can only stay on the train or get off it.

 

[Anglo-scot]

Are you all stuck in 1979 with this talk of skinheads? Shaved heads are pretty common for men and the far right do not espouse the skinghead look

Ok - I stand corrected. It just illustrated a point about the unfortunate link between English nationalism and racist thugs.

 

[Andalublue]

I think the SNP surge demonstrates that national identities are as real as ever. Westminster ignored Scottish views for so long that the allegiance of the Scots to the union drained away, and reverted more fully to their own nation. This didn't push them to towards European federalism but to fall back to their own historic national political identity. The Scottish political identity is now more real and vibrant than since 1707, IMO.

Political identities are fundamental to all of us, as people. If we don't acknowledge them, they still exist. They are not in my view an artificial channel for the expression of grievances, though of course they can be used as such - positively and negatively. The alignment of cultural and political identities - which the nation state does more or less - is for the me the starting point. Proponents of different arrangements such as a European superstate must also start from this point, as it is the current reality, and persuade us that the European political identity is worth shifting to. However, this discussion does not take place and so stokes national resentments as the EU exercises more and more executive power over us.

I think we English should examine more our withered political identity. Why is it so? I think colonialism and material excess entrenching class differences over more than a century has decimated our solidarity, which is the foundation for any national identity. The fact that some northerners cast around to consider joining up with Scotland begs this question.

I'm just going to float this idea, because however tongue-in-cheek that poll might have been, I think that there has existed over decades a feeling in the North that there are as many cultural, political and economic differences between the north and south of England as to make them virtually different countries. If 'we English' are to examine 'our withered political identity', then the sense of alienation that the urban, industrial northern heartland feels with a nation that feels as if it has a gravitational centre ever more southeastern.

Now, I give Osborne a degree of respect for recognising the potential of Manchester to be a second city powerhouse, and that's a positive step, provided it is provided with the same support and freedom London has enjoyed. Could that persuade northerners that they figure in the Tories plans for national regeneration? Maybe, but Scousers, Tykes, Geordies and Mackems also need to feel that they are included too.

You see, this project for national unity really isn't anything about creating some kind of mythical ethnic or cultural identity around concepts of 'Englishness', since that Englishness really isn't seen or recognised as the same thing by a Cumbrian or a Kentish person, by a Loiner or a Cockney. I think our collective inability to pin down the essence of English identity here proves that ineffability.

I think that the project for national unity is almost entirely about the economy, stupid! The south and east can't demand the north buys into some vaguely homogenised concept of Englishness, of a successful and prosperous modern nation while disparities of wealth force northerners to fund national projects overwhelmingly given to London but are themselves forced to migrate south in order to make a living. Economic redistribution has to happen for northerners to feel that they could ever have a stake in a new Englishness.

 

[ataturk]

Try telling a Yorkshireman he isn't English