How can anyone support facism?

[Red_Dave]

What is change?

Fascist leaders have never betrayed their principles, ever. I don't see why someone would create a fascist regime for the purpose being a fascist regime, to unite a country behind a nation, only to not do that?

Well historically theres been plenty of dictators who have established a dictatorship for there own ends rather than any set of ideals but who cloaked themselves behind a certain idealogy . For example napoleon claimed "I am the revolution" but completely ignored its ideals and went on to pilleage the rest of europe to serve his own desire for wealth and power . The same could be said on the bolshevicks, general pinochet and hosts of other dictators. The chances are that no matter how idealistic a dictator appears, it likely he is in it for himself.

Even if a dictator isnt a mass murderer its possible he will just be crap. In which case what you are left with is a crap government which needs to be overtrown violently and replaced by another dictatorship. Whats your inevitably going to be left with is a very war torn country

 

[Inuyasha]

I lived the last 7 years of Franco's Spain in madrid. I didn't live there as a foreigner dispatched to Spain as a diplomat or a company executive squirreled away in some foreign enclave but rather I lived with the average Spaniard and worked in the local economy. Here is what i saw living under Fascism or at least Spanish Fascism.

I arrived in Madrid in the later part of 1967. At first glance I saw nothing much different from many of the democracies of Western Europe or the Far East. People were in the streets smiling and laughing. Stores and markets did a bustling business, bars and restaurants were full and open to the wee hours. All in all things looked pretty good. Much better than the USSR where I had just spent two weeks. So here are the positive things (followed by their negatives) I learned about Franco's brand of politics.

People were allowed to travel freely to and from other countries. This helped the Spanish economy at the time much like Mexico today. You could not however travel to a communist country. If you did you would have you passport lifted and you would be fine and possibly sent to jail.

I soon found that I could get Time, Newsweek, the International Herald Tribune and any other foreign press I wanted almost anywhere in Madrid. But I soon noticed that some days a certain newspaper didn't appear on the news stands or some months a foreign magazine didn't come out. Later I learned that the publication had an article that was out of line with the regime so they just didn't let it in or destroyed the copies that were in the country. Censorship, although hidden was strong. Even a singer had to pass the lyrics he was going to sing to the office of censorship for an OK.

Public or private discourse that was in opposition to the regime or the Spanish Catholic Church was not permitted and like any insults directed at Franco or the regime in general could be punished by fines and imprisonment. There was also a law that said that more than four people congregating together in public in a group was prohibited. I have to say that I never knew anyone who was ever subjected to these laws and punishment except one American woman who, drunk in public, shouted that Franco was a on of a b¡tch. She was arrested, fined and deported from what I heard later.

There was no crime on the streets. You could stay out all night long and never be in physical danger from thugs or muggers, You could even go into Madrid's main park at any hour. Don't try that today. If a person was arrested for that type of crime they were jailed for a long time and there were rumors that some were killed by the police. There was never any proof to that, naturally.

All political discourse was discouraged. There was only one political party. The Spanish Falange. Other political parties were illegal. Elections were held but only to elect members of the Falange. Not much of an election by democratic standards. Franco had all of the communists and socials that didn't escape Spain after the 1936 Civil War, imprisoned or executed. It is said that he signed the execution orders while having his morning coffee.

Many of the things that were mentioned in Mussolini's "Doctrine of Fascism that Auftrag mentioned in his post were part and parcel of the Franco regime but Fascism is not so easily definable. From what i can see German, Italian and Spanish Fascism were all very different from each other and cannot, from what i have seen, be easily categorized and lumped together.

One example of this is that for example in Germany the Nazi party was supreme and controlled the military just the opposite was true in Franco's Spain. The Falange was used to legislate civil law but all its actions had to be OKed by the military high command. For every organ of civilian government there was the military one as well. For example, each province might have a governor who was a civilian member of the Falange but there was also a military governor who was over the civilian governor and his word was final. Franco himself was never a member of the Falange nor were any of his top generals to my knowledge. He had many Falangists imprisoned and executed. It is even rumored that he gave up the founder of the Falange, Jose Antonio Primo de Rivera to the nationlists to be executed because Franco saw Primo de Rivera as too much of a threat to the military.

Franco also had extremely poor relations with Hitler, he despised both Hitler and Mussolini and called them unprofessional in their military skills. Franco was an extremely able tactician and many of the tactics we still use in desert warfare today can be attributed to him. He refused to ally Spain with Hitler and even refused to allow him to make a state visit to Spain. They met once, on the French side of the border. Hitler later said he would rather have all his teeth pulled on the same day rather than have to negotiate again with Franco. He certainly used the "little corporal" and "Il Duce" as no one else ever did and then discarded them when he got everything he needed out of them.

Well these are a few of the things I saw or heard during that time. The reason that people appear to support Fascism, at least Franco's, is that every loophole for rebellion is effectively closed. There were movements to overthrow Franco but none ever really amounted to much probably because they received little help or encouragement from the democratic nations of the world.

 

[Kushinator]

Fascism creates order, it greates strength, it creates unity of purpose and determination. Human beings are essentially animals, and like all animals we have a natural desire for survival, for betterment and in terms of that, the only way to survive and better ourselves is through the natural order of hierarchy.

Your absolutly right, it creates strength, unity, puropose, and improves moral amoung the people. But you have to ask yourself, how long can it last, and how high is the ceiling? Doesnt facism hinder creativity?

The idea of control only exists over our enemies. Fascism advocates the strength of a nation and the struggle to overcome the weak. The concepts of democracy and liberalism are directly antithetical to that struggle and therefore it is vitally important to the survival of our nation state and the order which must be inherent within it in order to progress to smash those ideas. We don't need 10 political parties, 15 different political newspapers or a government which changes every 5 years. We need strength and unity of purpose.

Sorry to say, but facism cant work in the world of the 21st century. There are to many people of different races, backgrounds, and desires living in every corner of the globe. What would you call for, persacution or deportation of all "other" people? And what exactly is the B]purpose[/B]? Money, power, oil, desire to be the best? How does conjuring up an enemy just for the illusion that they just might destroy the world do anything else except instill hate?

I think the last 150 years is testament to how we can't. Look at what the world is after 150 years of democracy and liberalism. Germany 1933-1941 was a strong, unified country. It had achieved what liberal democracy has been trying to achieve over the last 100 years in less than 10.

Yes, but at what price? Do you honestly think it could have happened if there were no jews in Germany? What do you do when you dont have anybody to steal from? How do you pay for all those war machines when the money "confiscated" from the jews runs out? How do you "maintain focus" when there isnt anybody left to hate? Whats the purpose then; money oil and power? LOL

The UK and USA are rotting from the core out. You can talk about some utopian idea of having democracy and being militarily strong, but the fact is these countries are imploding. Look at communities and cities around these nations, and its perfectly plain to see that we are on the verge of chaos.

There is no unity. I don't go into my community and see that everyone is unified with a common purpose, I don't even feel safe. All I have is an increase in immigrants, violent crime and drugs.

Just because peoples ideals evolve doesnt mean we are rotting from the core. If you can give me a logical reason why we are "rotting" than maybe ill be able to understand you better.

And why does anything have to be unified for a common purpose? What if somebody doesnt want unity, they just want to debate on internet forums? Or what if somebody (heaven forbid) wants to do something for themselves, and not for their country? Are they to be put to death too?

I went to visit some friends and had to walk through this vile area where no one was even speaking English, it was as if I'd suddenly fallen through a whole and ended in Calcutta or some other god awful third world muslim ragged city.

My country is being taken over and the native people of that country are fighting each other to the point of anarchy.

Hurray for democracy!

You know what buddy, thats to bad. Do what other do every day, DEAL WITH IT I dont know where you came from, but my god people of the same race usually live in the same area. Its called a community. We have black ones (yes lots of crime), white ones (lots of money spent on drugs) and Mexican ones (lots of people working for less). There are lots more. I didnt get your point though.

Here in the US, there was and is still the same attitude about immigrants. There taking all the damn jobs! But the funny thing is, these people are taking the jobs that nobody wants! And there is still hostility. The Irish were being scrutinized at the turn of the century, now they are a great part of this country. You can list every race, see how they immigrated to the US, lived in ghetto's, and somehow some way more and more of their offspring are living in million dollar houses, sending their kids to private school, and living the American dream.

Thats the whole point. Capitalism wins every time hands down. There is nothing you can do because when you give somebody the choice, they will always pick the one that best suits their interst. How can any form of economics compete with that?

There will always be poor people. But the single idea that you can come from the dirtiest ghetto resembling Calcutta where nobody speaks English, go to school, work, play sports, or win the freakin lottery and be able to provide for your family with "the finer things in life" sure as hell beats national unity striving for a single purpose.

Why is it that the entire world is infatuated with the mental freedom that the US offers? From Disney to the Yankees, the rest of the world eats it up. Why does socialism never ever ever ever live up to capitalism? Ill awnser that one for you. Its because everybody coverts thy neighbors goods. And when you see 300 million people have the opportunity to do whatever they want with their lives you will eventually want it to!

After reading all your posts on the subject, i think i have your number. Your a very fearful individual. Afraid of anything different, afraid your race is headed for extinction and most of all afraid to accept what is truly best for society. Dont feel bad though, this type of fear is characteristic of Nazi-ism.

I mean, how much fear does it take for a person to try and kill off an entire culture for no appearant reason? Its only natural,(since you refer to humans as animal) when an animal is scared, what does it do? Bites, stings, and scratches.

But, when a human is afraid, he will conquer his fear and learn about it. Try making that bountiful leap to humanity, and learn about something before you fear it.

 

[Inuyasha]

What cannot work in the 21st century if anything, is communism. It has been seen for what it is and put to sleep on the junk pile of history. It just doesn't work. Fascism is quite the opposite. it is probably the most dangerous totalitarian idea that the West must face. It is alive and well and has morph into things far different from Hitler or Franco's concepts of the ideology.

Someone mentioned that Fascism cannot exist because it does not support capitalism. This is not correct. Fascism has a love affair with capitalism and private means of production. Take Hitler's brand of Fascism, Mussolini's or Franco's. All three slightly different and non-existant today but who built those regimes? Mercedes-Benz, Krupp, Bayer etc in Germany, Alfa-Romeo, Morbidelli in Italy, Barrentos and the arms makers in Spain. All of the companies that supported Fascism are still in business today. Fascism needs capitalism as the fuel for its engine. What Fascism doesn't like is unionism or any labor movement because that will disrupt the flow of production. It also avoids using tax money to run industries with the exception of maybe railroads (even AMTRAK is federal), and airlines. Government often has to take over high risk areas like the aforementioned. it doesn't like to but it does and that is true of Fascism or of democratic forms of government.

Today "creeping Fascism " is more of a threat than is "creeping socialism". As I mentioned above Fascism appears benign in the beginning and the move toward totalitarianism or authoritarianism is slow and hardly noticeable then one day it is suddenly in control. For this reason it is the greatest danger facing free nations today.

 

[Kushinator]

In a Fascist government, one is not in control of their destiny. They serve a unified purpose, which in itself cannot be thought of as capitalism.

How can National Socialism be put in the same sentence as capitalism? During the 2nd world war, these huge German companies were being given money that belonged to the Jews in order to build a "unified Germany". Those companies you mention were oligopolies, not corporations. The state gives them their power; they don’t have to compete in order to achieve it.

Am I wrong in saying that Fascism and National Socialism go hand in hand? Not that they are the same, but serve as the same medium to better ones nation by any and all means necessary.

The beauty of capitalism is you only serve yourself. How can you say Fascism is hand in hand with capitalism when the entire principal behind capitalism is freedom to own private property and to set goals that are for the good of the individual, not necessesarily the nation?

Quoted from William Shire, "The Rise and the fall of the Third Reich that 18th and 19th century Prussia devoted 70% of its revenue to the army and "that nation's whole economy was always regarded as primarily an instrument not of the people's welfare but of military policy."

That’s not capitalism, not in the least bit. Although I see your point in how fascism can support a spin-off of capitalism, neither Hitler nor Mussolini incorporated it into their system. There are claims that Fascism can support full scale capitalism, but again fascism goes against capitalist ideology.

 

[Inuyasha]

In a Fascist government, one is not in control of their destiny. They serve a unified purpose, which in itself cannot be thought of as capitalism.

How can National Socialism be put in the same sentence as capitalism? During the 2nd world war, these huge German companies were being given money that belonged to the Jews in order to build a "unified Germany". Those companies you mention were oligopolies, not corporations. The state gives them their power; they don’t have to compete in order to achieve it.

Am I wrong in saying that Fascism and National Socialism go hand in hand? Not that they are the same, but serve as the same medium to better ones nation by any and all means necessary.

The beauty of capitalism is you only serve yourself. How can you say Fascism is hand in hand with capitalism when the entire principal behind capitalism is freedom to own private property and to set goals that are for the good of the individual, not necessesarily the nation?

Quoted from William Shire, "The Rise and the fall of the Third Reich that 18th and 19th century Prussia devoted 70% of its revenue to the army and "that nation's whole economy was always regarded as primarily an instrument not of the people's welfare but of military policy."

That’s not capitalism, not in the least bit. Although I see your point in how fascism can support a spin-off of capitalism, neither Hitler nor Mussolini incorporated it into their system. There are claims that Fascism can support full scale capitalism, but again fascism goes against capitalist ideology.

True, the individual is not in control of his destiny. But this is more philosophical than practical. Even in modern republics like the US we can argue that the common man is not in control of his destiny in the absolute.

When you speak of the term "National Socialism" you are speaking of Germany, and that version of Fascism. As i mentioned above Germany, Italy and Spain were all "Fascist" but each in a different way. My experience in Spain was that it was a Fascism tailored to include many elements of capitalism. I made money under Franco much the same as you made money under Nixon or Clinton etc. That was by investment in Spanish stocks and in opening a business which my daughter still runs today 30 some years later. If that's not a form of capitalism then i don't know what is. I was never threatened by the government but then I might as well be whistling in the wind because if you haven't lived it then my explanation will mean nothing, However I am sure that i have made it obvious that there is no textbook venison of Fascism.

I never lived under the Germans nor the Italians so all I know is what people who have have told me. I still contend that under certain forms of Fascism, capitalism, limited or not, is a driving engine. I have seen it happen. I also believe that if the West does not stay on its toes people under 35 will see Fascism rear its ugly head again. I can't say if it will be defeated or the world will succumb to it but the writing is on the wall. One just has to look at the way we are living now to know that this is just one more accident waiting to happen.

 

[Duke]

In the words of everyone's second favorite fascist: "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." --Mussolini.


Duke

 

[Inuyasha]

In the words of everyone's second favorite fascist: "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." --Mussolini.


Duke

Well put. Thanks Benito.

 

[LeftyHenry]

What cannot work in the 21st century if anything, is communism. It has been seen for what it is and put to sleep on the junk pile of history. It just doesn't work.

This is where you are quite wrong my friend, you see there are still plenty of communist-socialist countrys out there. When ever a country has alot of poor opressed working class people, a charismatic revolutionary, and support, communism will pop up. This is easier then it sounds because every country has thousands of young leftist and millions of opressed working clas citizens. The only thing that lacks is public support. Most humans aren't kind enough to except personnal sacrifice. However, nevertheless communism has become reborn as a more liberal socialism and is growing slowly but surely. For example, here in the US every election the socialist party (SPUSA) gets more and more votes every year.

Socialism can work its just that in the past it hasn't due to the fact that there is no worker motivation. This can be changed by offering bonuses to those who work harder and more days off.

 

[Comrade Brian]

you see there are still plenty of communist-socialist countrys out there

Communism is state-less, therefore there is no such thing as a "communist country", its contradictory. Also very few socialist states exist, most are either a perverted, dictatorial version of socialism(oftenly called "Stalinism"), and the other is a very moderate form where they have seemingly tried to combine socialist and capitalist socio-economic systems(usually referred as "Democratic Socialism").

When ever a country has alot of poor opressed working class people, a charismatic revolutionary, and support, communism will pop up

That happens in any country, and if the country is usually in a bad state, many will start to rebel, though it doesn't necessarily have to be commnunist, or even Marxist. Also many of these figures may claim to be communists/Marxists/socialist, but in reality, many just are power-hungry oppurtunists, and end up being tin-pot despots and totally screw the ideology and use it for their own purposes. Though there have been many exceptions.

This is easier then it sounds because every country has thousands of young leftist and millions of opressed working clas citizens.

Some countries do not even have a million people, and not all oppresses, but it also has to do with individual definition of oppressed, and some are oppressed in "invisible" ways too.

The only thing that lacks is public support

Huh? Working class people are the most numerous, how essentially would they lack support? I believe though what you mean is revolts are often suppressed by the govt.and also corporations hate it when workers take power for themselves because in the end, they're bound to lose that which gives them means to have power-private property. Not to mention worker revolts and such often fail because there is little money, because most workers are often dirt-poor, and need what little money they have to feed themselves, so there is little to give around. Also media, about 26 corp. own almost all American media outlets, and as corporations are opposed to workers, they never or rarely ever report pro-worker things, its usually just anti-crap.

Most humans aren't kind enough to except personnal sacrifice

Actually, most are, we're just usually taught not to, because we would try to make a more co-operative society whereas businesses want a competitive one, because they end up with more profits. Because your material welfare makes mostly what you think, e.g. most poorer people generally are more leftist, wealthy tend to be more rightist, I'm not saying there are exceptions though...

However, nevertheless communism has become reborn as a more liberal socialism and is growing slowly but surely

Commnunism's been reborn? The idea never died, but the modern-communist society has never existed, though Ancient Communism has(earlier communal societies).

For example, here in the US every election the socialist party (SPUSA) gets more and more votes every year.

That really doesn't mean anything as there is a natural increase in population, so one should suspect more votes for every party most of the time. But here is a record of votes for left-wing parties:

Communist Party USA
Year Pres. Candidate VP Candidate Total Votes
1924 William Z. Foster Benjamin Gitlow 36,386
1928 William Z. Foster Benjamin Gitlow 21,181
1932 William Z. Foster James W. Ford 102,785
1936 Earl Browder James W. Ford 80,159
1940 Earl Browder James W. Ford 46,251
1948 Henry Wallace Sen. Glen H. Taylor 1,157,326 [A]
1952 Vincent Hillinan Charlotte Bass 140,023 [A]
1968 Gus Hall Charlene Mitchell 1,075
1972 Gus Hall Jarvis Tyner 25,595
1976 Gus Hall Jarvis Tyner 58,992
1980 Gus Hall Angela Davis 43,871
1984 Gus Hall Angela Davis 36,386
1988 to present: Voters urged to support the Democratic Party


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Green Party
Year Pres. Candidate VP Candidate Total Votes
1996 Ralph Nader Winona LaDuke 684,872
2000 Ralph Nader Winona LaDuke 2,882,955


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Peace & Freedom Party
Year Pres. Candidate VP Candidate Total Votes
1968 Eldrige Cleaver Dr. Douglas F. Dowd 136,385
1972 Dr. Benjamin Spock Julius Hobson 55,167
1980 Maureen Smith Elizabeth Cervantes Barron 18,106
1988 Herbert Lewin Vikki Murdock 10,370
1992 Ron Daniels Asiba Tupahache 27,961
1996 Marsha Feinland Kate McClatchy 25,332


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Populist (or People's) Party
Year Pres. Candidate VP Candidate Total Votes
1892 James Baird Weaver James Gavin Field 1,041,028
1896 William Jennings Bryan Arthur Sewall 222,538
1900 Warton Barker Ignatius Donnelly 50,373
1904 Thomas Edward Watson Thomas Henry Tibbles 117,183
1908 Thomas Edward Watson John Temple Graves 82,872
1972 Dr. Benjamin Spock Julius Hobson 78,756
1976 Margaret Wright Dr. Benjamin Spock 49,024


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Progressive Parties
Year Pres. Candidate VP Candidate Total Votes
1912 Theodore Roosevelt Hiram Warren Johnson 4,119,207
1924 Sen. Robert M. La Follette Sen. Burton K. Wheeler 4,822,856[C]
1948 Henry Wallace Sen. Glen H. Taylor 1,157,326
1952 Vincent Hallinan Charlotte Bass 140,023


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Socialist Labor Party
Year Pres. Candidate VP Candidate Total Votes
1892 Simon Wing Charles H. Matchett 21,173
1896 Charles H. Matchett Matthew Maguire 36,356
1900 Joseph F. Malloney Valentine Remmel 40,900
1904 Charles H. Corregan William W. Cox 31,249
1908 August Gillhaus Donald L. Munro 14,021
1912 Arthur E. Reimer August Gillhaus 29,374
1916 Arthur E. Reimer Caleb Harrison 15,284
1920 William W. Cox August Gillhaus 30,368
1924 Frank T. Johns Verne L. Reynolds 28,368
1928 Verne L. Reynolds Jeremiah D. Crawley 21,608
1932 Verne L. Reynolds John W. Aiken 34,028
1936 John W. Aiken Emil F. Teichert 12,790
1940 John W. Aiken Aaron M. Orange 14,883
1944 Edward A. Teichert Arla A. Albaugh 45,336
1948 Edward A. Teichert Stephen Emberg 29,038
1952 Eric Hass Stephen Emberg 30,250
1956 Eric Haas Georgia Cozzini 44,300
1960 Eric Haas Georgia Cozzini 47,521
1964 Eric Haas Henning A. Bomen 44,697
1968 Henning A. Blomen George S. Taylor 55,591
1972 Louis Fischer Genevieve Gunderson 53,814
1976 Jules Levin Constance Blomen 9,616


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Socialist Party USA
Year Pres. Candidate VP Candidate Total Votes
1900 Eugene V. Debs Job Harriman 87,814
1904 Eugene V. Debs Benjamin Hanford 402,489
1908 Eugene V. Debs Benjamin Hanford 420,390
1912 Eugene V. Debs Emil Seidel 900,390
1916 Allan Benson George R. Kirkpatrick 589,924
1920 Eugene V. Debs Seymour Stedman 913,664
1924 Sen. Robert La Follette Sen. Burton K. Wheeler 4,822,856[C]
1928 Norman Thomas James H. Mauer 266,453
1932 Norman Thomas James H. Mauer 881,951
1936 Norman Thomas George A. Nelson 187,785
1940 Norman Thomas Maynard C. Krueger 116,827
1944 Norman Thomas Darlington Hoopes 80,518
1948 Norman Thomas Tucker P. Smith 138,973
1952 Darlington Hoopes Samuel H. Friedman 20,065
1956 Darlington Hoopes Samuel H. Friedman 2,044
1976 Frank P. Zeidler J. Quinn Brisben 6,038
1980 David McReynolds Sister Diane Drufenbrock 6,898
1988 Willa Kenoyer Ron Ehrenreich 3,882
1992 J. Quinn Brisben Barbara Garson 3,057
1996 Mary Cal Hollis Eric Chester 4,764
2000 David McReynolds Mary Cal Hollis 5,602


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Socialist Workers Party
Year Pres. Candidate VP Candidate Total Votes
1948 Farrell Dobbs Grace Carlson 13,614
1952 Farrell Dobbs Myra Tanner Weiss 10,312
1956 Farrell Dobbs Myra Tanner Weiss 7,797
1960 Farrell Dobbs Myra Tanner Weiss 60,166
1964 Clifton DeBerry Edward Shaw 32,327
1968 Fred Halstead Paul Boutelle 41,390
1972 Linda Jenness Andrew Pulley 66,677
1976 Peter Camejo Willie Mae Reid 91,314
1980 Clifton DeBerry Matilde Zimmerman 40,105
1984 Mel Mason Andrea Gonzales 24,672
1988 James Warren Kathleen Mickells 15,604
1992 James Warren Willie Mae Reid 23,096
1996 James Harris Laura Garza 8,463
2000 James Harris Margaret Trowe 7,378

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Workers League / Socialist Equality Party
Year Pres. Candidate VP Candidate Total Votes
1984 Ed Winn Helen Betty Halyard 10,801
1988 Ed Winn Helen Betty Halyard 18,693
1992 Helen Betty Halyard ? 3,050
1996 Jerome White Fred Mazelis 2,438



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Workers World Party
Year Pres. Candidate VP Candidate Total Votes
1980 Dierde Griswold Gavrielle Holmes 13,213
1984 Gavrielle Holmes Gloria E. LaRiva 15,329
1988 Larry Holmes Gloria E. LaRiva 7,846
1992 Gloria E. LaRiva ? 181
1996 Monica Moorehead Gloria LaRiva 29,082
2000 Monica Moorehead Gloria E. LaRiva 4,795



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[A] In 1948 and 1952, the Communist Party USA entered Henry Wallace's Progressive Party and supported its candidates.

Eugene Debs ran in 1900 as the candidate of the Social Democratic Party of America (SDPA). In 1901, the SDPA merged with the anti-DeLeonist faction of the Socialist Labor Party to form the Socialist Party.

[C] In 1924, the Socialist Party was one of the main endorsers of Senator LaFollette's Progressive Party.

http://www.marxists.org/history/usa/government/elections/president/timeline.htm

 

[Comrade Brian]

Socialism can work its just that in the past it hasn't due to the fact that there is no worker motivation.

Actually, most "socialist" governments were quite repressive, a good example was the USSR, which was overthrown because of political suppression and an economic recession, though the country was sustained for 69 yrs.

This can be changed by offering bonuses to those who work harder and more days off.

That could obviosly work, e.g. in W. Europe, which is a bit more socialist in nature than the US, have more days off, higher wages, more benefits, more wealth redistribution, etc. etc. despite the high taxes, but I think its overall worth it.

This critique hopefully gave you some good tips.

Also, Che, I have noticed your understanding of communism and socialism is a bit limited, hopefully your knowledge will increase as time gores on.

Sorry for the double-posting mods., but my first post was quite long.

 

[Axismaster]

Socialism, communism, fascism, it all sickens me. These ideologies are pipe dreams. Communism for instance, is fundamentally perfect, man is not, man is flawed, so a flawed being needs a system to match him, and that is capitalism. When they tried communism, men had to capitalize on power. Socialism is simply a pipe dream in the sense that they think more government regulation can make somebody more free. As for fascism, it is a pipe dream in the sense that they think all humanity can be placed into line for the good of the state.

 

[LeftyHenry]

Socialism, communism, fascism, it all sickens me. These ideologies are pipe dreams. Communism for instance, is fundamentally perfect, man is not, man is flawed, so a flawed being needs a system to match him, and that is capitalism. When they tried communism, men had to capitalize on power. Socialism is simply a pipe dream in the sense that they think more government regulation can make somebody more free. As for fascism, it is a pipe dream in the sense that they think all humanity can be placed into line for the good of the state.

Capitalism doesn't work for even the flawed because millions get left behind into poverty. Captilism doesn't work but doesn't fail. It goes on due to alot of things that are hard to explain lol.

Socialism isn't really that. It's more government benefits and support and etc. in exchange for higher taxes. A garuntee that that no one gets left
behind

btw Comrade Brian. You're probably right that my sens of the two aren't perfect and aren't any where near the level of your undestanding but I am working on improving it through books. I plan to start reading the Communist Manifesto soon but I just don't know when due to the length

 

[Comrade Brian]

Thats all right Che, people always learn and you'll probably learn a lot more.

Here I'll direct you to someplaces that may help push you along.

These are a few easier reads:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/sw/index.htm

Or if maybe you want an introducton to Marxism, which is basically the foundation idea for many socialist theories, and prbably the largest impact on the movement, can be found here, and this one is an easy read, shouldn't take long:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1913/mar/x01.htm

Or if you'd want a longer introduction:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1914/granat/index.htm

 

[Inuyasha]

Capitalism doesn't work for even the flawed because millions get left behind into poverty. Captilism doesn't work but doesn't fail. It goes on due to alot of things that are hard to explain lol.

Socialism isn't really that. It's more government benefits and support and etc. in exchange for higher taxes. A garuntee that that no one gets left
behind

btw Comrade Brian. You're probably right that my sens of the two aren't perfect and aren't any where near the level of your undestanding but I am working on improving it through books. I plan to start reading the Communist Manifesto soon but I just don't know when due to the length

No political system works perfectly nor even comes close to working as designed. Briefly. this is mainly because the designers all to often forget the human element.

The Communist manifesto is not a long work. It is often said that it is too long to be a pamphlet and too short to be a book. Here is a Link with a good version and in large print.
http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/classics/manifesto.html

You reading problem on socialism will begin when you start you reading of "Das Kapital".

 

[Comrade Brian]

Capital right away?? That is an extremely long and hard read. Even I have not read most of it, I've been stuck on Vol. 1 for nearly 2 years now. Though I would reccomend reading it sometime, but Marx was a terrible writer, when I mean terrible I mean as confusing, and he wrote most of it, except some editing done in Vol. 2,3, and 4, done by Engels, who was an excellent writer.

 

[Inuyasha]

I plan to start reading the Communist Manifesto soon but I just don't know when due to the length

My comments were directed at the above statement. The Manifesto is not a long work as Che seems to think. The long work is "Das Kapital".

 

[Axismaster]

My comments were directed at the above statement. The Manifesto is not a long work as Che seems to think. The long work is "Das Kapital".

Why read that imbecile Marx? Instead read some good book like Atlas Shrugged or Libertarianism in One Lesson. Or you could read Animal Farm for a good example of just how "well" communism works.

 

[Axismaster]

Speaking of pro-freedom literature, maybe when I get done with my book A Neo-Liberal Primer, I will let you socialists be the first to read it.

 

[Inuyasha]

Why read that imbecile Marx? Instead read some good book like Atlas Shrugged or Libertarianism in One Lesson. Or you could read Animal Farm for a good example of just how "well" communism works.

I first read that imbecile Marx in the 1960's and I got the book along with "Guerrilla Warefare: Che Guevara" by and the bookstore at Fort Holabird MD. Both books were required study for all the people in my unit. Fort Holabird was, until just a few years ago, the center for training of the ASA (Army Security Agency) that at that time trained all aspects of G2 functions both FOI and CIC. At that time communism was considered America's greatest enemy. The resons for the study of those "subversive" works must be obvious. Know you enemy. Today I am sure soldiers training in this area are reading that horrible and subversive book "The Koran".

 

[Comrade Brian]

Why read that imbecile Marx? Instead read some good book like Atlas Shrugged or Libertarianism in One Lesson. Or you could read Animal Farm for a good example of just how "well" communism works.

"Freedom" is more of an opinion. Your little Libertarian ideology doesn't have a patent for. Freedom is one's perspective. I remember When aryan Imp. and Auftrag were here, they kept proclaiming that an authoritian state had the most freedom, would you understand that?

In my view communism is about the greatest freedom that's possible.

 

[Inuyasha]

I have taken this from the 14 characteristics of Fascism by Dr. Lawrence Britt, political scientist. My comments are defined as (MY COMMENTS), all the rest are quotes from Dr. Britt

I would not argue that we live in a fascist state - yet - and I do not even believe that George W. Bush has strong fascist tendencies. I do think, however, that some of his closest advisors -- particularly in the Departments of Justice and Defense -- bear careful watching, especially as they work to blur the distinction between those two departments and obliterate the Department of State altogether.
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
(MY COMMENT)We have developed the "flag cult" to a high degree over the past two decades. In the US we have displayed the flag with more frequency than other democracies but lately it is looking a bit like the above characteristic. Especially the "flag lapel pins". I saw that same phenomena in Spain under Franco. All the Flanage sympathizers wore some version of the Spanish national flag in their lapel. Those who did not often had their patriotism questions. Things here are moving in that direction. First it was only the right who wore the lapel pins on TV but now even more centrist and liberal TV personalities are wearing the pin. IMO they do it to avoid being called "unpatriotic". Such pressure in not a good thing in a democratic society and can lead to problems.

2. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
(MY COMMENT)We also have become a nation that looks to blame the outside for out problems etc. Before the communists now the Islamic Fundamentalists from the Middle East. If such an idea gets out of hand it leads to a closed door-closed mind isolationist atmosphere that is detrimental to the well being of the nation.

3. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
(MY COMMENT)We now call the media the "Fourth Estate". There are still independent thinkers in the media but as I see it more and more curry the favor of the politicians and big money and care less and less about honest, unbiased reporting.

4. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
(MY COMMENT)The religious right has become more and more powerful over the last three decades. up to the point that religious people of the Protestant sect can even threaten others with damnation and worse death. ( ex: Roberson's promotion of the assennation of Hugo Chavez.)

5. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
(MY COMMENT)The military-industrial complex has been around since the 50's and Dwight D. Eisenhower warned the American people of its dangers 5 decades ago. We need to pay attention to this situation.

6. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
(MY COMMENT) Need I bother to comment on this? I think not. Just watch the news. Corruption has become a form of government in the past 25 years. It is permitted and even pardoned unless it is so arrogantly displayed that it has to be taken to task.
http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm

I am not singling out any one political group or person here. My intention is to point out that we are drifting in an undemocratic and unAmerican direction and we need to be as vigilant of out internal politics as we are of external threats

 

[LeftyHenry]

"14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations."
- Mr. Britt

Here also our government resembles a facist government with incidents like the one in New Orleans and Rodney King. Also some could say that 2000 election was fraudulent.

 

[Duke]

Socialism, communism, fascism, it all sickens me. These ideologies are pipe dreams. Communism for instance, is fundamentally perfect, man is not, man is flawed, so a flawed being needs a system to match him, and that is capitalism. When they tried communism, men had to capitalize on power. Socialism is simply a pipe dream in the sense that they think more government regulation can make somebody more free. As for fascism, it is a pipe dream in the sense that they think all humanity can be placed into line for the good of the state.

Capitalism is flawed too, for it makes money power, and those with money (corporations and the like) can make it pretty tough for those without (the people). Hence, what can happen, is the ones with the money, the powerful ones, find advantage in taking away from the ones without capital, and making themselves more powerful. In a government where the companies and corporations don't have the power to do such things, a well-checked government, society would be better off.


Duke

 

[stsburns]

"14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

Like Saddam killing his apposition. Sometimes he was even the person killing his opponent. Source: History Channell "Saddam and the Third Reich" Most of the information was mostly on the Baath Party history and its influence in Iraq and Iran. And yes we did give weapons to Iraq, because we assumed that Iraq was lesser of the two evils in the middle east.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations."
- Mr. Britt

So crimes should go unpunished? Go down the Lawless part your town and wait a stop light, crime and punishment will go though anyone's mind in thoughs 2-5 minute wait. Hoping that you won't get mugged, car-jacked, robbed, stabbed, shot, etc...

Here also our government resembles a facist government with incidents like the one in New Orleans and Rodney King. Also some could say that 2000 election was fraudulent.

I can actually agree with you in the election, but saying our government is fascist, THAN I HAVE TO ASK YOU, who did you vote for in the last election? All parties have loyal members, does that make the fascist? Absolutly not? Welcome to politics! Don't run away, Run for office!