How can anyone support facism? (1 Viewer)

[FinnMacCool]

There are a couple of facists aka nazis on our forums but I was wondering how, if they themselves are not desperate for power, could they ever approve of a facist regime. It doesn't make sense to me. Even if their idea of a government that has complete control, doesn't that mean they have complete control over them also? How could anyone possibly want that? I just don't get it:doh

 

[Comrade Brian]

Haevy nationalism+stupitidy.

They support because they think they must be very loyal to the state. Also they think they're better than everyone else.

 

[stsburns]

Without loyalty, how can you tell the difference between friend and foe? :ws

 

[stsburns]

Just to clear up what Facism is.

Main Entry: fas·cism
Pronunciation: 'fa-"shi-z&m also 'fa-"si-
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality -- J. W. Aldridge>
- fas·cist /-shist also -sist/ noun or adjective, often capitalized
- fas·cis·tic /fa-'shis-tik also -'sis-/ adjective, often capitalized
- fas·cis·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb, often capitalized
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=fascism

 

[Harshaw]

Just curious -- how many of these points do people here agree with?

It's not all or nothing -- just, which ones do you agree with?

The abolition of incomes unearned by work.

The breaking of the slavery of interest

In view of the enormous sacrifices of life and property demanded of a nation by any war, personal enrichment from war must be regarded as a crime against the nation. Therefore, the ruthless confiscation of all war profits.

The nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations (trusts).

Profit-sharing in large industrial enterprises.

Extensive development of insurance for old age.

The creation and maintenance of a healthy middle class, the immediate communalizing of big department stores, and their lease at a cheap rate to small traders, and that the utmost consideration shall be shown to all small traders in the placing of public and municiple orders.

A land reform suitable to our national requirements, the passing of a law for the expropriation of land for communal purposes without compensation; the abolition of ground rent, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.

The ruthless prosecution of those whose activities are injurious to the common interest.

A thorough reconstruction of our national system of education (with the aim of opening up to everyone the possibility of higher education and of thus obtaining advancement). The curricula of all educational establishments must be brought into line with the requirements of practical life. The education of gifted children of poor parents, whatever their class or occupation, at public expense.

The nation's health standards are raised by protecting mothers and infants, by prohibiting child labor.

The abolition of the mercenary army.

Legal warfare on deliberate political mendacity and its dissemination in the press.

The publishing of papers which are not conducive to the national welfare must be forbidden. The legal prosecution of all those tendencies in art and literature which corrupt our national life, and the suppression of cultural events which violate this demand.

Freedom for all religious denominations.

Our nation can achieve permanent health only from within on the basis of the principle: The common interest before self-interest.

The creation of a strong central national power.

 

[V.I. Lenin]

Facism and Communism are both extreme government forms. Extreme governments are created in extreme times. Say, after a World War and a country if forced to pay back damages it inflicted and this causes national poverty and unrest. Or in a country that was mostly backwards, ages behind others, still ruled by a cruel leader, ravaged by starvation and a world war.

Facism is supported by those that don't think, because they don't want to think, because things are so terrible they simply want someone to promise them they'll make it better.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Just curious -- how many of these points do people here agree with?

It's not all or nothing -- just, which ones do you agree with?

Oooh! Oooh! Oooh!
Mitsa Kottah! Mista Kotta!

 

[M14 Shooter]

Just to clear up what Facism is.

Main Entry: fas·cism
Pronunciation: 'fa-"shi-z&m also 'fa-"si-
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality -- J. W. Aldridge>
- fas·cist /-shist also -sist/ noun or adjective, often capitalized
- fas·cis·tic /fa-'shis-tik also -'sis-/ adjective, often capitalized
- fas·cis·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb, often capitalized
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=fascism

With respect, thats a little vague.
The 7 defining features of fascism:

-Militant nationalism, proclaiming the racial and cultural superiority of the dominant ethnic group and asserting that group's inherent right to a special dominant position over other peoples in both the domestic and the international order

-The adulation of a single charismatic national leader said to possess near superhuman abilities and to be the truest representation of the ideals of the national culture, whose will should therefore literally be law

-Emphasis on the absolute necessity of complete national unity, which is said to require a very powerful and disciplined state organization (especially an extensive secret police and censorship apparatus), unlimited by constitutional restrictions or legal requirements and under the absolute domination of the leader and his political movement or party

-Militant anti-Communism coupled with the belief in an extreme and imminent threat to national security from powerful and determined Communist forces both inside and outside the country

-Contempt for democratic socialism, democratic capitalism, liberalism, and all forms of individualism as weak, degenerate, divisive and ineffective ideologies leading only to mediocrity or national suicide

-Glorification of physical strength, fanatical personal loyalty to the leader, and general combat-readiness as the ultimate personal virtues

-A sophisticated apparatus for systematically propagandizing the population into accepting these values and ideas through skilled manipulation of the mass media, which are totally monopolized by the regime once the movement comes to power

-A propensity toward pursuing a militaristic and aggressive foreign policy

-Strict regulation and control of the economy by the regime through some form of corporatist economic planning in which the legal forms of private ownership of industry are nominally preserved but in which both workers and capitalists are obliged to submit their plans and objectives to the most detailed state regulation and extensive wage and price controls, which are designed to insure the priority of the political leadership's objectives over the private economic interests of the citizenry. Therefore under fascism most of the more important markets are allowed to operate only in a non-competitive, cartelized, and governmentally "rigged" fashion.

 

[Harshaw]

No one agrees with any of those points above?

 

[M14 Shooter]

No one agrees with any of those points above?

Maybe they're on to you.

 

[Connecticutter]

There are a couple of facists aka nazis on our forums but I was wondering how, if they themselves are not desperate for power, could they ever approve of a facist regime. It doesn't make sense to me. Even if their idea of a government that has complete control, doesn't that mean they have complete control over them also? How could anyone possibly want that? I just don't get it:doh

Yeah, I don't get it either. It's something that I'm really curious about to. That's why I don't think we should ban them from these forums. They're to weak to really be a threat to us anymore, so I just want to know what causes someone to go that way.

Just curious -- how many of these points do people here agree with?

It's not all or nothing -- just, which ones do you agree with?

What is this, a fascist platform or something?
No one disagrees on everything. That would lead to a contradiction.
So for the record, I agreed with exactly one - freedom of religion. There were also few in there where I could say it depends.

 

[Harshaw]

What is this, a fascist platform or something?

Just curious.

 

[Connecticutter]

Just curious.

Yeah, but where did you get the list?

 

[Canuck]

ALL the facists in america today need to be rounded up and sent to Iraq to do feet washing services for the iraq people
humility and sacrifice need to be instilled

 

[M14 Shooter]

Yeah, but where did you get the list?

You dont recognize it?
Its directly from a very well-known socialist party.

 

[George_Washington]

I think a better question would be, if you had to choose between fascism and communism, which one would you take and why?

 

[Harshaw]

I'd really like the question answered. I mean, it's not like those things on the list don't get proposed on a daily basis, so . . .

 

[George_Washington]

I'd really like the question answered. I mean, it's not like those things on the list don't get proposed on a daily basis, so . . .

I don't know, it's just cause of a person's personal experiences and things he's learned. It may be how a person's raised, it could be the people he's exposed to, it could be a number one of many things.

But I will say that I think it's easier nowadays to become a fascist than it was say 70 years ago because of the Internet. Facist material and propaganda is readily available at the touch of a mouse click.

 

[Harshaw]

No, the question of how many of those points I posted people agree with.

Well, I guess since no one is going to step up, I'll explain, because it goes an awfully long way toward answering the questions.

That list is taken almost verbatim from the platform of the Nazi Party. It's about 70% of it, actually, and the only things I left out were things dealing directly with anti-Semitism. (And I changed a few words, like "Reich" or "State" to "public," because it means the same thing.)

And it also describes fascism in a nutshell. In all its forms, these have often been core principles.

I list it because it's mostly things steadfast adherents of the Left would rally behind.

So, imagine somebody charismatic comes along, espousing those principles, using all the usual rhetoric like "will of the people," etc. . . . and he looks to be getting things done and gaining popularity.

Otherwise well-meaning people could well get swept up in it.

I mean, look, for example, of the lovefest often leveled at Fidel Castro and his main executioner, Che Guevara by people who should know better. These guys are fascists to a T, right down to the military attire and extreme cult of personality. But they're cultural heros.

I saw, not long ago, video from a peace rally of a woman who said something to the effect of, when asked how she can support Castro when he's a dictator, "if that dictator makes sure his people are educated and have health care, then I support that dictator." This was in the US.

It's really not that hard to imagine how fascism and dictatorship take hold, when you look at it that way.

 

[robin]

http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/fdtcards/Cards_Index.html

 

[Comrade Brian]

http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/fdtcards/Cards_Index.html

Nice list, this'll come in handy.

The dictators it showed were:

COLONEL HUGO BANZER, President of Bolivia
FULGENCIO BATISTA, President of Cuba
SIR HASSANAL BOLKIAH, the Sultan of Brunei
P. W. BOTHA, President of South Africa
GENERAL HUMBERTO BRANCO, President of Brazil
VINICIO CEREZO, President of Guatemala
CHIANG KAI-SHEK, President of Taiwan
ROBERTO SUAZO CORDOVA, President of Honduras
ALFREDO CRISTIANI, President of El Salvador
NGO DINH DIEM, President of South Viet Nam
GENERAL SAMUEL DOE, President of Liberia
FRANÇOIS & JEAN CLAUDE DUVALIER, Presidents-for-Life of Haiti
GENERAL FRANCISCO FRANCO, President of Spain
ADOLF HITLER, Chancellor of Germany
HUSSAN II, King of Morocco
FERDINAND MARCOS, President of the Philippines
MAXIMILIANO HERNANDEZ MARTINEZ, General of El Salvador
MOBUTU SESE SEKO, President of Zaire
GENERAL MANUEL NORIEGA, Chief of Defense forces, Panama
TURGUT OZAL, Prime Minister of Turkey
MOHAMMAD REZA PAHLEVI, Shah of Iran, King of Kings
GEORGE PAPADOPOULOS, Prime Minister of Greece
PARK CHUNG HEE, President of South Korea
GENERAL AUGUSTO PINOCHET, President of Chile
GENERAL SITIVENI RABUKA, Commander, Armed Forces of Fiji
GENERAL EFRAIN RIOS MONT, President of Guatemala
ANTONIO DE OLIVEIRA SALAZAR, Prime Minister of Portugal
HALIE SELASSIE, Emperor of Ethiopia
IAN SMITH, Prime Minister of Rhodesia
ANASTASIO SOMOZA, SR. AND JR., Presidents of Nicaragua
ALFREDO STROESSNER, President-for-Life of Paraguay
GENERAL SUHARTO, President of Indonesia
RAFAEL LEONIDAS TRUJILLO, President of the Dominican Republic
GENERAL JORGE RAFAEL VIDELA, President of Argentina
MOHAMMED ZIA UL-HAQ, President of Pakistan

 

[cnredd]

http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/fdtcards/Cards_Index.html

For anyone who would like more info, I suggest you read about the authors credited on this website...sadly only one has actual info linked...

Dennis Bernstein

Today, when Dennis Bernstein isn't tracking Newt and the New-Righters and Bill Clinton's latest fund-raising scam, he's pursuing CIA dirty tricksters, white-supremacist church-burners and their high-level political associates, and hard-core pentagon liars and the dirtiest cover-up of the decade: that hundreds of thousands of soldiers and civilians were wounded by chemical weapons during the war with Iraq.

http://www.flashpoints.net/WhoIsDennisBernstein.html

:screwy

As far as two of the authors working for Pacifica Radio...

Pacifica Radio is a network of five independent, non-commercial, listener-supported radio stations in the United States that is known for its leftist and pacifist political views.

In other words...As Officer Barbrady would say...

"Move along, folks!...Nothing to see here!"....:roll:

 

[robin]

For anyone who would like more info, I suggest you read about the authors credited on this website...sadly only one has actual info linked...

Dennis Bernstein

Today, when Dennis Bernstein isn't tracking Newt and the New-Righters and Bill Clinton's latest fund-raising scam, he's pursuing CIA dirty tricksters, white-supremacist church-burners and their high-level political associates, and hard-core pentagon liars and the dirtiest cover-up of the decade: that hundreds of thousands of soldiers and civilians were wounded by chemical weapons during the war with Iraq.

http://www.flashpoints.net/WhoIsDennisBernstein.html

:screwy

As far as two of the authors working for Pacifica Radio...

Pacifica Radio is a network of five independent, non-commercial, listener-supported radio stations in the United States that is known for its leftist and pacifist political views.

In other words...As Officer Barbrady would say...

"Move along, folks!...Nothing to see here!"....:roll:

Are you trying to say by all this then CNRED, that no fascists dictators have been supported or installed by the USA ?

 

[cnredd]

Are you trying to say by all this then CNRED, that no fascists dictators have been supported or installed by the USA ?

No...

I'm trying to say that PLUS my name is NOT capitalized and doesn't have just one "d"....:roll:

 

[robin]

No...

I'm trying to say that PLUS my name is NOT capitalized and doesn't have just one "d"....:roll:

So cnredd,
Lets take just one example.... Is it that you don't think Pinochet was a fascist or you don't think Allende was overthrown in a CIA backed coup or both ?