Gender Pronouns

[Aristaeus]

View attachment 67327703
The word male can either refer to the male sex or the male gender. source

Are we just going to ignore the fact that those two definitions contradict each other?

 

[buck]

Are we just going to ignore the fact that those two definitions contradict each other?

We need to create a new word, apparently, for a male sperm producer. Any ideas?

 

[Lisa]

We need to create a new word, apparently, for a male sperm producer. Any ideas?

Are infertile males not men?

 

[buck]

Are infertile males not men?

I'm not sure what you mean by "male". Maybe you can provide a definition?

 

[Unbeknownst]

I don’t believe playing into a mental illness is an effective treatment. That just makes it worse.

Every transphobe seems to think their personal opinion is superior to peer reviewed studies and the consensus of medical professionals. Every transphobe seems to think any study that doesn't confirm their beliefs doesn't count.

I'm sorry, but that's not how the world works. I cited a source proving that therapy does not work as a treatment for GD. If you're going to dismiss the evidence with no reason other than "tHe DOcTorS ArE cOmpRoMISeD bY tHe TrAnsPIrAcY1!!1" it shows you don't care about the truth.

Are we just going to ignore the fact that those two definitions contradict each other?

I very clearly state that the word male refers to BOTH the male sex and male gender. Words can have multiple meanings.

 

[buck]

Every transphobe seems to think their personal opinion is superior to peer reviewed studies and the consensus of medical professionals. Every transphobe seems to think any study that doesn't confirm their beliefs doesn't count.

I'm sorry, but that's not how the world works. I cited a source proving that therapy does not work as a treatment for GD. If you're going to dismiss the evidence with no reason other than "tHe DOcTorS ArE cOmpRoMISeD bY tHe TrAnsPIrAcY1!!1" it shows you don't care about the truth.

I have seen documented problems with different 'pro-trans' studies. Just recently a study was provided that showed no mental health benefits of hormone treatments, it did claim that gender confirming surgeries did help the trans mental health. After review by the AJP, that was changed to there being no advantage to mental health after surgery. You can make an argument that this was a simple error. However, like NICE/NHS recently found, these studies are full of bias and are low quality. I suspect, it is likely on purpose. I wouldn't just plain dismiss a study with no evidence, but it does make me a bit more skeptical - maybe that's unfair, but it is with reason.

 

[Unbeknownst]

I have seen documented problems with different 'pro-trans' studies. Just recently a study was provided that showed no mental health benefits of hormone treatments, it did claim that gender confirming surgeries did help the trans mental health. After review by the AJP, that was changed to there being no advantage to mental health after surgery. You can make an argument that this was a simple error. However, like NICE/NHS recently found, these studies are full of bias and are low quality. I suspect, it is likely on purpose. I wouldn't just plain dismiss a study with no evidence, but it does make me a bit more skeptical - maybe that's unfair, but it is with reason.

If you can provide me links to the examples you mentioned, that'd be great.

 

[buck]

If you can provide me links to the examples you mentioned, that'd be great.

I only found out about this specific study because Lisa tried using it as proof earlier.

Basically, after a review, they issued a correction.

Correction to Bränström and Pachankis | American Journal of Psychiatry (psychiatryonline.org)

“the longitudinal association between gender-affirming surgery and lower use of mental health treatment lends support to the decision to provide gender-affirming surgeries to transgender individuals who seek them” is too strong.

I understand you probably will not like the source below, but here is further clarification:

Psychiatric Journal Corrects Transgender Study, Now Says There’s ‘No Advantage Of Surgery’ For Mental Health | The Daily Caller

“Upon request, the authors reanalyzed the data to compare outcomes between individuals diagnosed with gender incongruence who had received gender-affirming surgical treatments and those diagnosed with gender incongruence who had not,” the correction said.

“While this comparison was performed retrospectively and was not part of the original research question given that several other factors may differ between the groups,” the correction said, “the results demonstrated no advantage of surgery in relation to subsequent mood or anxiety disorder-related health care visits or prescriptions or hospitalizations following suicide attempts in that comparison.”

There are examples of corrections to other studies too. This one took me long enough to "re-locate" that I don't care to go looking for the other examples.

 

[Lisa]

I'm not sure what you mean by "male". Maybe you can provide a definition?

Is this a game that you are going to play after your post #352.

 

[buck]

Is this a game that you are going to play after your post #352.

Are infertile males not men?

I don't know how to answer your question, since i am not sure what you mean.

If it is an infertile male, then no but if it is an infertile male then yes... I guess is the best I can do for now.

 

[Tahuyaman]

Every transphobe seems to think their personal opinion is superior to peer reviewed studies and the consensus of medical professionals. Every transphobe seems to think any study that doesn't confirm their beliefs doesn't count.

I'm sorry, but that's not how the world works. I cited a source proving that therapy does not work as a treatment for GD. If you're going to dismiss the evidence with no reason other than "tHe DOcTorS ArE cOmpRoMISeD bY tHe TrAnsPIrAcY1!!1" it shows you don't care about the truth.

I very clearly state that the word male refers to BOTH the male sex and male gender. Words can have multiple meanings.

There are no peer reviews studied which support your view. They are all based on political correctness.

 

[Tahuyaman]

I'm not sure what you mean by "male". Maybe you can provide a definition?

Male. A human being born equipped with a penis.

Female, a human being born equipped with a vagina.

 

[Lisa]

Male. A human being born equipped with a penis.

Female, a human being born equipped with a vagina.

You are ignoring gender identity because it doesn't support your bigotry, despite the fact that the medical community passed your simplistic ideas by 50 years ago.

A trans guy has a vagina but he isn't female. He wouldn't be trans male if he was.

 

[Tahuyaman]

You are ignoring gender identity because it doesn't support your bigotry, despite the fact that the medical community passed your simplistic ideas by 50 years ago.

A trans guy has a vagina but he isn't female. He wouldn't be trans male if he was.

Again, a male is born with a penis. A female is born with a vagina. That’s a fact of life. You ant change it.

One can’t change their biological birth gender because they feel like it.

 

[buck]

Male. A human being born equipped with a penis.

Female, a human being born equipped with a vagina.

Oh, those definitions make it easy.

So... A human being born equipped with a penis is a male even if infertile. A human being born equipped with a vagina. is not a male, even if infertile.

Lisa's definitions make it extremely difficult, though. Which is why we really need a new word to describe a male born with a penis that has the capability to manufacture sperm. Then we can call the trans-men, "male" and those that have the capacity to produce sperm whatever the new word is. Basically, we'd have to abandon "male" to their side.

 

[Tahuyaman]

You are ignoring gender identity because it doesn't support your bigotry, despite the fact that the medical community passed your simplistic ideas by 50 years ago.

A trans guy has a vagina but he isn't female. He wouldn't be trans male if he was.

You are ignoring science because it doesn’t mesh with your agenda.

 

[Tahuyaman]

Oh, those definitions make it easy.

So... A human being born equipped with a penis is a male even if infertile. A human being born equipped with a vagina. is not a male, even if infertile.

Fertility has nothing to do with being born a male or female.

 

[Unbeknownst]

I only found out about this specific study because Lisa tried using it as proof earlier.

Basically, after a review, they issued a correction.

Correction to Bränström and Pachankis | American Journal of Psychiatry (psychiatryonline.org)



I understand you probably will not like the source below, but here is further clarification:

Psychiatric Journal Corrects Transgender Study, Now Says There’s ‘No Advantage Of Surgery’ For Mental Health | The Daily Caller



There are examples of corrections to other studies too. This one took me long enough to "re-locate" that I don't care to go looking for the other examples.

That's interesting. I actually have another source that comes to the same conclusion as Branstrom and Pachankis. Though, even if it turns out gender confirming surgery doesn't make a difference, that doesn't mean there's no distinction between sex and gender or that a social transition isn't an effective treatment for gender dysphoria.

Of course as things go on and more information about GD and trans people come to light, I'll base my opinions on the facts, even if those facts mean that the transphobes were right all along. Until then, I'll be basing my opinions on the studies we currently have, which all seem to point out that GD is real and transitioning is the treatment.

 

[buck]

Fertility has nothing to do with being born a male or female.

Agreed. Which is why I said "even if infertile."

 

[Tahuyaman]

Agreed. Which is why I said "even if infertile."

Infertility is irrelevant to the issue.

 

[buck]

That's interesting. I actually have another source that comes to the same conclusion as Branstrom and Pachankis. Though, even if it turns out gender confirming surgery doesn't make a difference, that doesn't mean there's no distinction between sex and gender or that a social transition isn't an effective treatment for gender dysphoria.

Of course as things go on and more information about GD and trans people come to light, I'll base my opinions on the facts, even if those facts mean that the transphobes were right all along. Until then, I'll be basing my opinions on the studies we currently have, which all seem to point out that GD is real and transitioning is the treatment.

I dont know if you saw the study I posted recently that showed 20% had even worse mental outcomes after surgery.. and 2 complications per patient. That's really not good, and does not seem to support your conclusion.

I do agree with you that we really need to let the science figure it out. I suspect there really are biological issues to some of the transgender identifying (still not male). Though, I also think that based on the recent (very large) increases we have seen... there are many claiming trans, that aren't. I don't like the dutch protocol / affirmation model until we are certain of what is really going on with the increase and ensure we are actually helping and aren't creating harm to kids that have other issues.

As part of letting science figure it out, we really need to get the activists out of the science and ensure the research is being properly completed. This would include being certain to let experts on "the other side" have their ideas heard and researched without interference and silencing - which really does happen.

 

[Unbeknownst]

Again, a male is born with a penis. A female is born with a vagina. That’s a fact of life. You ant change it.

One can’t change their biological birth gender because they feel like it.

I'm going to have to write an essay explaining this, aren't I?

Your definitions are more or less correct when it comes to defining the male and female sex (though I'd add chromosomes into that definition), but they are inaccurate for defining the male and female gender.

Changing sex is (mostly) impossible, correct. You are what you are born as. Gender, on the other hand, isn't about biology. It's something humans made up. You see, gender is the associations we make with the male and female sex.

Quick clarification, when using the words male and female, I'm going to write "(sex)" when referring to sex and "(gender)" when referring to gender.

For example, because historically it was common for people of the female sex to wear dresses, we associate dresses with the female sex. This association doesn't actually have anything to do with sex: wearing a dress doesn't make a male (sex) a female (sex), and not wearing a dress doesn't make a female (sex) a male (sex). This association is an example of a presentation we associate with the female sex.

Similarly, because language developed so that it is common for the pronouns she and her to be assigned to the female sex, we associate the female sex with said pronouns. This association doesn't actually have anything to do with sex: calling a male (sex) "she" doesn't make a male (sex) a female (sex), and vice versa. This association is an example of an identification we associate with the female sex.

All of these associations we make with the sexes are called "gender." The things we associate with the female sex are part of the female gender, and the things we associate with the male sex are part of the male gender. So you see, it's very easy to change genders. All one has to do is identify and present as the other gender, and you have essentially filled the gender role.

You may ask, well, why do trans people change genders? That's because ever since you were capable of thought, your brain's been influenced by society and making these associations between the male sex and the male gender and the female sex and the female gender. You can't help but think that someone who presents female (gender) is of the female sex. And when a transman desperately wants to be of the male sex because his brain doesn't match his body, he can't help but associate presenting female (gender) with being female (sex). This causes further dysphoria. By presenting male (gender) which he associates with the male sex, he can alleviate his dysphoria because his mind is tricked into thinking that being of the male gender makes him more male (sex).

If that makes any sense.

 

[Unbeknownst]

As part of letting science figure it out, we really need to get the activists out of the science and ensure the research is being properly completed. This would include being certain to let experts on "the other side" have their ideas heard and researched without interference and silencing - which really does happen.

I disagree with silencing dissent, and I believe it does happen. But... you do realize the solution to the problem of biased researchers isn't letting differently biased researchers make conclusions, right? What we need is greater objectivity.

 

[buck]

I disagree with silencing dissent, and I believe it does happen. But... you do realize the solution to the problem of biased researchers isn't letting differently biased researchers make conclusions, right? What we need is greater objectivity.

I agree. I don't know if it is possible in the current environment, though. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Tahuyaman]

I'm going to have to write an essay explaining this, aren't I?

Your definitions are more or less correct when it comes to defining the male and female sex (though I'd add chromosomes into that definition), but they are inaccurate for defining the male and female gender.

Changing sex is (mostly) impossible, correct. You are what you are born as. Gender, on the other hand, isn't about biology. It's something humans made up. You see, gender is the associations we make with the male and female sex.

Quick clarification, when using the words male and female, I'm going to write "(sex)" when referring to sex and "(gender)" when referring to gender.

For example, because historically it was common for people of the female sex to wear dresses, we associate dresses with the female sex. This association doesn't actually have anything to do with sex: wearing a dress doesn't make a male (sex) a female (sex), and not wearing a dress doesn't make a female (sex) a male (sex). This association is an example of a presentation we associate with the female sex.

Similarly, because language developed so that it is common for the pronouns she and her to be assigned to the female sex, we associate the female sex with said pronouns. This association doesn't actually have anything to do with sex: calling a male (sex) "she" doesn't make a male (sex) a female (sex), and vice versa. This association is an example of an identification we associate with the female sex.

All of these associations we make with the sexes are called "gender." The things we associate with the female sex are part of the female gender, and the things we associate with the male sex are part of the male gender. So you see, it's very easy to change genders. All one has to do is identify and present as the other gender, and you have essentially filled the gender role.

You may ask, well, why do trans people change genders? That's because ever since you were capable of thought, your brain's been influenced by society and making these associations between the male sex and the male gender and the female sex and the female gender. You can't help but think that someone who presents female (gender) is of the female sex. And when a transman desperately wants to be of the male sex because his brain doesn't match his body, he can't help but associate presenting female (gender) with being female (sex). This causes further dysphoria. By presenting male (gender) which he associates with the male sex, he can alleviate his dysphoria because his mind is tricked into thinking that being of the male gender makes him more male (sex).

If that makes any sense.

I’ll keep it brief. No, it doesn’t.