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Gender Pronouns

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There aren't any scientific advances which say a person born a biological male is actually a female or vice versa.
No science says that. Humans born with male sex organs are biologically male, just as humans born with with female sex organs are biologically female. That's the easy part. Once the brain gets involved, the easy part goes out the window.
 
This will be the second time I'm asking.
Alright, I'll be doing myself a disservice if I continue the conversation like this. To all of the transphobes in this thread (Tahuyaman, Aristaeus, and others,) I'll ask you what I asked the other guy:

What evidence would change your view on trans people? I'm asking for anything that you would consider sufficient proof that GD is real, gender and sex are different, and transitioning is the treatment for GD.

If you can't answer this question and stick to your answer, it shows you are not interested in the facts and are arguing in bad faith.
 
If that person has a female psychological gender identity then you just described someone who is trans female......

You're describing a mental disorder. If one is born a biological male, but believes that he's actually a female, that person would be suffering from delusions. A detachment from reality.
 
You're asking a question which isn't relative to the actual subject here. That's why it's being ignored
The subject is gender pronouns. You think we should refer to people by their birth sex and not their gender identity, and that's there's no valid reason to do otherwise. I disagree. I am asking you what evidence would change your view on this topic. My question seems very relevant to the discussion.
 
You're describing a mental disorder. If one is born a biological male, but believes that he's actually a female, that person would be suffering from delusions. A detachment from reality.
No, it isn't a mental disorder and trans people aren't delusional. The APA rejected those ideas almost 50 years ago. Gender dysphoria is a mental order but that is the adverse effects of the body dysphoria and not the dysphoria itself.

There are gender differences in the brain,

02 Jan 2020

Future research is likely to be aided by improved methods of visualizing the living human brain. Research in nonhuman mammals reported sex differences in cell groups, often of only a few hundred cells, that cannot be visualized in the living brain using current technologies. The small magnitudes of sex differences reported to date in the living human brain may partly reflect an inability to look more closely, particularly at small subcortical cell groups. In addition, thus far, human research has looked largely at relatively gross characteristics, such as regional volumes and fiber tracts. Animal research, however, has found that many more subtle characteristics, such as neurochemical phenotypes, dendritic branching, and synaptic densities, to name just a few, show sex differences (McCarthy et al., 2015). Analyzing these types of characteristics may increase the explanatory power of human research. In addition, researchers developing animal models and those studying humans have not always communicated as well as they might have. It would be interesting to know, for instance, which of the small sex differences that have been seen consistently in the living human brain are also seen consistently in other species, and whether these differences in other species are influenced by early androgen exposure. Similarly, researchers examining early hormone effects on human brain and behavior might benefit from closer attention to the specific hypotheses suggested by the large body of relevant research in other species.

Recent work has benefitted from attention to issues of reliability, sample size, and statistical procedures. Additional attention is needed to sampling biases as well. More information on sex differences over the life span, beginning at birth, would also be useful. Early life is a time when interventions may have maximal impact. Future research might also explore how different types of factors, such as early testosterone exposure and parental socialization, work together in the developmental system that produces sex/gender differences in brain and behavior. Measures of testosterone and parental behaviors during the first few months of infancy (mini-puberty) might be useful in pursuing this goal.

APA, Trans is not a mental disorder,
A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder. For these individuals, the significant problem is finding affordable resources, such as counseling, hormone therapy, medical procedures and the social support necessary to freely express their gender identity and minimize discrimination. Many other obstacles may lead to distress, including a lack of acceptance within society, direct or indirect experiences with discrimination, or assault. These experiences may lead many transgender people to suffer with anxiety, depression or related disorders at higher rates than nontransgender persons.

According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), people who experience intense, persistent gender incongruence can be given the diagnosis of "gender dysphoria." Some contend that the diagnosis inappropriately pathologizes gender noncongruence and should be eliminated. Others argue that it is essential to retain the diagnosis to ensure access to care. The International Classification of Diseases (ICD) is under revision and there may be changes to its current classification of intense persistent gender incongruence as "gender identity disorder."
 
The subject is gender pronouns. You think we should refer to people by their birth sex and not their gender identity, and that's there's no valid reason to do otherwise. I disagree. I am asking you what evidence would change your view on this topic. My question seems very relevant to the discussion.
Your question pertaining to what I think of "trans people" and what would change my view is irrelevant
 
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No, it isn't a mental disorder and trans people aren't delusional....

Obviously if someone is born a male, but honestly believes he's a female, he is indeed delusional and detached from reality. Now, why does he think this and how it should be handled is are different issues.


They should be treated differently if one is a child and another suffering from this condition is an adult.
 
Your question pertaining to what I think of "trans people" and what would change my view is irrelevant
It's irrelevant for me, on one side of the debate, to ask you, on the other, after you have dismissed many arguments and evidence, what evidence would convince you that GD is real, there is a distinction between sex and gender, and transitioning is the treatment for GD?

You're being silly. My question very much pertains to the topic at hand.

Here's what I think: You are avoiding the question because nothing could convince you. I could cite a million sources proving you wrong and you'd ignore them: because your position isn't based on facts; it's based on your opinions and feelings.

It's either that, or you're afraid that if you do say what would be sufficient evidence, I would present it to you. But you don't want to have to stick to your guns, you want to weasel your way around providing actual evidence for anything you say.

Are you ready to answer my question? Third time's a charm, right?
What evidence would change your view on trans people? I'm asking for anything that you would consider sufficient proof that GD is real, gender and sex are different, and transitioning is the treatment for GD.

If you can't answer this question and stick to your answer, it shows you are not interested in the facts and are arguing in bad faith.
 
It's irrelevant for me, on one side of the debate, to ask you, on the other, after you have dismissed many arguments and evidence, what evidence would convince you that GD is real, there is a distinction between sex and gender, and transitioning is the treatment for GD?

You're being silly. My question very much pertains to the topic at hand.

Here's what I think: You are avoiding the question because nothing could convince you. I could cite a million sources proving you wrong and you'd ignore them: because your position isn't based on facts; it's based on your opinions and feelings.

It's either that, or you're afraid that if you do say what would be sufficient evidence, I would present it to you. But you don't want to have to stick to your guns, you want to weasel your way around providing actual evidence for anything you say.

Are you ready to answer my question? Third time's a charm, right?
Again, your question is irrelevant. It's only intended to divert from the actual subject. You can ask it 50 times as far as I'm concerned
 
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Obviously if someone is born a male, but honestly believes he's a female, he is indeed delusional and detached from reality. Now, why does he think this and how it should be handled is are different issues.


They should be treated differently if one is a child and another suffering from this condition is an adult.
Repeating that line doesn't mean that it is true. Where is the evidence the trans people are delusional?

Where did you do your formal study of human sexuality?
 
Still, no one has been able to define these new gender pronouns. I'd still like to know the different gender identities they apply to.
 
Repeating that line doesn't mean that it is true. Where is the evidence the trans people are delusional?

Where did you do your formal study of human sexuality?
Continually denying that fact doesn't make you correct either.

Does one need to be an educated expert in human sexuality to know a male is born with a penis and a female is born with a vagina?
 
Continually denying that fact doesn't make you correct either.

Does one need to be an educated expert in human sexuality to know a male is born with a penis and a female is born with a vagina?
Your simplistic idea was bypassed as a medical fact 50 years ago but still, you cling to it. A person's biology is only one part of their sexuality.
 
Your simplistic idea was bypassed as a medical fact 50 years ago but still, you cling to it. A person's biology is only one part of their sexuality.
So, it's your position that it's not a fact that males are born with a penis and females are born with a vagina?
 
So, it's your position that it's not a fact that males are born with a penis and females are born with a vagina?
That is not absolutely true 100% of the time. Trans and binary people exist and might be as much as 5% of the population. There is as much variation in human gender as there is in sexual orientation.
 
That is not absolutely true 100% of the time. Trans and binary people exist and might be as much as 5% of the population. There is as much variation in human gender as there is in sexual orientation.
Ok. You can go on believing a male is not born with a penis and a female is not born with a vagina.
 
That is not absolutely true 100% of the time. Trans and binary people exist and might be as much as 5% of the population. There is as much variation in human gender as there is in sexual orientation.
Wait, what? This can't be a serious response.
 
It's very serious. Why wouldn't it be a serious reply?

Is that a problem for you?
Because your post factually is incorrect and defies basic education learned in elementary school. Males have penises and females have vaginas. Being trans doesn't change your biological sex.

Also, this statement makes absolutely no sense: "Trans and binary people exist and might be as much as 5% of the population."

Trans and binary people make far more than 5% of the population. They account for virtually 100% of the population. But that's irrelevant to your statement that males don't have a penis. That's kind of a defining characteristic of being a human male. You are talking about humans, right? Cause your post is hilariously wrong to the point where this needs to be asked...
 
If that person has a female psychological gender identity then you just described someone who is trans female.

Why is this so difficult for you to understand? What is holding you back from understanding this basic concept?


Your facts are rejecting basic medical concepts. Human sexuality is not determined wholly by external genitalia. This is why transgendered people exist. Being trans is not a choice and their gender identity cannot be changed.



No, it is not. This has been explained to you and I have posted numerous links from medical orgs. to research studies but still, you are convinced that our sexuality is determined wholly by genitalia or even DNA. Trans people would not exist if it was, but obviously, they do exist.

Do you claim to know more than the Mayo Clinic about gender? Where did you do your formal coursework on the subject?

I never mentioned sexuality. Sexuality is who you attracted to and is irrelevant to the trans debate.

Sex is determined by gametes which is obviously linked to sexual organs.

An animal that produces sperm is male, an animal that produces ova is female. That is literally the scientific definition.

A transwoman may have a different gender identity or feel different, but that does not change their sex.

A transwoman is a male who has a different gender identity than a cis male.
 
Both factually wrong 🤷‍♂️

If male and female isn't based on gametes, how do animal breeders know which animals to pair up? Look up the scientific definition of male and female.
 
If male and female isn't based on gametes, how do animal breeders know which animals to pair up? Look up the scientific definition of male and female.

LIke I said YOUR post, this one below
Again. What makes a person a person is between their ears.
What makes a person male or female is between their legs.

BOTH statements are factually wrong
if you need evidence of that face you are free to read through post 378 based on facts and science 🤷‍♂️
 
LIke I said YOUR post, this one below


BOTH statements are factually wrong
if you need evidence of that face you are free to read through post 378 based on facts and science 🤷‍♂️

Male or female is based on gametes, which are produced between your legs (euphamistically speaking at least), so my statement is not factually wrong.
 
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