• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Gender Pronouns

Status
Not open for further replies.
I dont know if you saw the study I posted recently that showed 20% had even worse mental outcomes after surgery.. and 2 complications per patient. That's really not good, and does not seem to support your conclusion.

That’s because you can’t treat a mental illness by playing into it. That generally makes it worse.
 
I’ll keep it brief. No, it doesn’t.
I don't know what to tell you.
That’s because you can’t treat a mental illness by playing into it. That generally makes it worse.
Then what would you suggest? Therapy? Doesn't work. Medicine? Not yet developed. Refer to post #341 for sources on GD.
 
Ill never understand how a topic like this generates so much anger and hate and dishonesty etc . . .its REALLY weird.

General rule is simply dont be an asshole for no preseason and respect people regardless of what "side" you think you are on

after that simply educated yourself if the topic matters to you and if it dont, then stop getting your panties in a bunch lol so much invented anger lol


Lets review some facts


Sex =/= gender
transgender =/= sexual orentation
Transgender =/= mental disorder
Transgender =/= to vanity
Transgender=/= mutilation
Transgender =/= chopping a part off
Transgender =/= tattoos
Transgender =/= made up

Gender Identity is a real issue and luckily for america its gaining more and more traction in the equal rights department and equal rights should catch up with science and facts.


For people actually interested in the topic here are links that can help, happy reading and spread love not hate

 
You are ignoring science because it doesn’t mesh with your agenda.
I've quoted medical journals and APA papers, so what science am I ignoring?

BTW, What is my supposed agenda?
 
Again, a male is born with a penis. A female is born with a vagina. That’s a fact of life. You ant change it.

One can’t change their biological birth gender because they feel like it.
Human sexuality isn't that simple. Who we are and what gender we are is far more complicated than looking between the legs of a person to see what is there. This is why we have the terms gender identity because most of what makes us who we are is between our ears and not between our legs. The idea that you are arguing against is more than 50 years old and hasn't been used by the medical community since the 1970s. The idea that a Dr or psychologist would reject gender identity would be grounds for the loss of their professional license or credentials.

The term gender identity was originally coined by Robert J. Stoller in 1964. All societies have a set of gender categories that can serve as the basis of a person's self-identity in relation to other members of society.


I’ll keep it brief. No, it doesn’t.
In science, you cannot reject any facts that are inconvenient to your ignorance.

What is it about trans people that bothers you so, or what do you fear happening? Are trans people a threat to society or human existence in your eyes?
 
Is expecting others to address you in new ways a right which should be defended and if so, is that not imposing compelled speech on those who do not choose to recognise the gender distinctions made by some?

Pronouns are supposed to be a shortcut in language, not a political statement. Make a shortcut too difficult to be used conveniently and it loses its function. So can we all settle on one set of non-binary pronouns so that we don't have to carry around tables of pronouns? I'm too lazy to be so damned sensitive and too obstreperous to be forced into compelled speech. If push comes to shove I'll simply abandon pronouns and use proper nouns constantly. It's easier than wandering into this new, bewildering minefield of politicised pronouns.

I say stick with sex-based pronouns plus neutral pronouns and just add one set more for all non-binary folk. "Keep it simple stupid!", is a fine ideal to avoid over complicating life.

Cheers and be well my brothers, sisters and ____________!
Evilroddy.
 
Many of these pronouns I can't identify. Can someone inform me and others as to what they are and how you identify these people on do sight? I mean him or her is easy, but how do you identify a XE, XEM or an EY? What is that?View attachment 67326328
I just cannot bring myself to care about this silliness,
 
Human sexuality isn't that simple. Who we are and what gender we are is far more complicated than looking between the legs of a person to see what is there. This is why we have the terms gender identity because most of what makes us who we are is between our ears and not between our legs. The idea that you are arguing against is more than 50 years old and hasn't been used by the medical community since the 1970s. The idea that a Dr or psychologist would reject gender identity would be grounds for the loss of their professional license or credentials.





In science, you cannot reject any facts that are inconvenient to your ignorance.

What is it about trans people that bothers you so, or what do you fear happening? Are trans people a threat to society or human existence in your eyes?

Again. What makes a person a person is between their ears.
What makes a person male or female is between their legs.
 
Transitioning is the only known treatment for gender dysphoria. Other methods, like therapy, don't work. Discrimination against trans people has negative effects on their mental health. This is especially worrying, considering the already high suicide, self harm and attempted suicide rates of trans people. Note that transgender and nonbinary youth who reported having pronouns respected by all or most people in their lives attempted suicide at half the rate of those who did not have their pronouns respected.
I have no issue with gender transition of adults. I would treat a gender reassigned trans person with the same respect as anyone else, and if they want to be called her or him or by their name, I would comply as I would any non gender transitioned person. What I will not call someone (f)ae, or em, or pers, or zie at their request. I will call them by their name or a classic pronoun like him, her, she or even they. If that has a negative effect on their mental health, they may need to seek better mental health professionals.
 
You must have a tenuous grip on it if this makes the difference.
More like healthy grip. Tenuous is using (f)ae, unless one is talking about fantasy novels.
 
Alright, I'll be doing myself a disservice if I continue the conversation like this. To all of the transphobes in this thread (Tahuyaman, Aristaeus, and others,) I'll ask you what I asked the other guy:

What evidence would change your view on trans people? I'm asking for anything that you would consider sufficient proof that GD is real, gender and sex are different, and transitioning is the treatment for GD.

If you can't answer this question and stick to your answer, it shows you are not interested in the facts and are arguing in bad faith.
 
That's interesting. I actually have another source that comes to the same conclusion as Branstrom and Pachankis. Though, even if it turns out gender confirming surgery doesn't make a difference, that doesn't mean there's no distinction between sex and gender or that a social transition isn't an effective treatment for gender dysphoria.

Of course as things go on and more information about GD and trans people come to light, I'll base my opinions on the facts, even if those facts mean that the transphobes were right all along. Until then, I'll be basing my opinions on the studies we currently have, which all seem to point out that GD is real and transitioning is the treatment.

I had a little time to check out your next study. What you claim that study says is not quite what that study says. That study is about hormones. But it does reference (ref 20) a different study - which tries to back up the claim:

That study reviewed three separate studies. I checked out reference 14 since it seemed to have a conclusion related to surgery.. Here is the result:

Analysis of the psychosocial variables showed no significant differences between pre- and postoperative assessments.

Basically, the study (Ref 14) found a benefit to hormones at the beginning. That makes sense, due to "honeymoon period" that occurs when hormones are started. But, it found zero benefit to surgery on the mental health of patients.
 
Last edited:
Alright, I'll be doing myself a disservice if I continue the conversation like this. To all of the transphobes in this thread (Tahuyaman, Aristaeus, and others,) I'll ask you what I asked the other guy:

What evidence would change your view on trans people? I'm asking for anything that you would consider sufficient proof that GD is real, gender and sex are different, and transitioning is the treatment for GD.

If you can't answer this question and stick to your answer, it shows you are not interested in the facts and are arguing in bad faith.
So, you respond to facts with name calling. Why does that not surprise me?
 
Ill never understand how a topic like this generates so much anger and hate and dishonesty etc . . .its REALLY weird.

General rule is simply dont be an asshole for no preseason and respect people regardless of what "side" you think you are on

after that simply educated yourself if the topic matters to you and if it dont, then stop getting your panties in a bunch lol so much invented anger lol


Lets review some facts


Sex =/= gender
transgender =/= sexual orentation
Transgender =/= mental disorder
Transgender =/= to vanity
Transgender=/= mutilation
Transgender =/= chopping a part off
Transgender =/= tattoos
Transgender =/= made up

Gender Identity is a real issue and luckily for america its gaining more and more traction in the equal rights department and equal rights should catch up with science and facts.


For people actually interested in the topic here are links that can help, happy reading and spread love not hate


Pro-LGBTQ side: "We just want people to have the freedom to be their authentic selves."

Anti-LGBTQ side: "OMG WTF I DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS THEREFORE IT'S BAAAAAAADDDDDDDDDDD, MUST RESTRICT IT THROUGH THE FORCE OF LAW"
 
That's interesting. I actually have another source that comes to the same conclusion as Branstrom and Pachankis. Though, even if it turns out gender confirming surgery doesn't make a difference, that doesn't mean there's no distinction between sex and gender or that a social transition isn't an effective treatment for gender dysphoria.

Of course as things go on and more information about GD and trans people come to light, I'll base my opinions on the facts, even if those facts mean that the transphobes were right all along. Until then, I'll be basing my opinions on the studies we currently have, which all seem to point out that GD is real and transitioning is the treatment.

As I gave the study you provided a little more thought... think how disingenuous that was.

The study you referenced says drugs and surgery help the mental health... then refers you to reference 20. You go to reference 20 and that is only about potential help from drugs, not surgery - though that study (20) readily admit the science is low quality.

By following references in 20, you find that the only study adressing surgery actually concludes that surgery does not help mental health.

I believe that is called "source laundering". Now other studies can refer to the study you provided and say... "hey look! Surgery helps. See this study."
 
Again. What makes a person a person is between their ears.
What makes a person male or female is between their legs.

Both factually wrong 🤷‍♂️
 
I had a little time to check out your next study. What you claim that study says is not quite what that study says. That study is about hormones. But it does reference (ref 20) a different study - which tries to back up the claim:

That study reviewed three separate studies. I checked out reference 14 since it seemed to have a conclusion related to surgery.. Here is the result:



Basically, the study (Ref 14) found a benefit to hormones at the beginning. That makes sense, due to "honeymoon period" that occurs when hormones are started. But, it found zero benefit to surgery on the mental health of patients.
So went to my original source, checked out what you said and you're right. So I decided to actually look through the references, and thought ref. 32 was worth looking into. What I got from that was:
Our findings suggest that accessing these gender-affirming treatments is associated with better mental health, higher socioeconomic status, and having a heterosexual orientation.
Correlation =/= causation, obviously, so I continued looking through the references of that study...
Ref. 4:
Low quality evidence suggests that hormone therapy may lead to improvements in psychological functioning. Prospective controlled trials are needed to investigate the effects of hormone therapy on the mental health of transgender people.
Emphasis mine.
Ref. 5:
Self-perceived health compared to 1 year previously rose in the first post-operative year, after which it declined.
and
GRS leads to an improvement in general well-being as a trend but over the long-term, QoL decreases slightly in line with that of the comparison group.
Ref. 6 had references I looked into, particularly this one, which states:
The participants showed significant improvement after SRS in domains II (psychological) and IV (social relationships) of the WHOQOL-100. In contrast, domains I (physical health) and III (level of independence) were significantly worse after SRS. Individuals who underwent additional surgery had a decrease in quality of life reflected in domains II and IV.
Ref. 8 in this study, which is also ref. 33 in the original study, found this:
The estimated odds of suicidal ideation were lower for those who utilized hormones (odds ratio (OR) 0.2, 95 % CI 0.1–0.5) and breast augmentation (OR 0.3, 95 % CI 0.1–0.6) compared to transwomen who had not utilized transition-related medical care. The estimated odds of non-injection drug use were significantly lower for those who had accessed hormones than for those who did not (OR 0.2, 95 % CI 0.1–0.4), but there were no significant differences for non-injection drug use with breast augmentation or genital surgery. The estimated odds of binge drinking were significantly lower for those who utilized hormones (OR 0.4, 95 % CI 0.3–0.7), breast augmentation (OR 0.2, 95 % CI 0.2–0.3), or genital surgery (OR 0.0, 95 % CI 0, 0.2).
Link to the study.

And now I'm going to clock out, but I'll probably go back and continue rabbit-holing another time. If the question was "Does GCS help trans people?" What I'm getting from this is "Maybe, Not really, Kind of, Yeah," and that's me interpreting it all generously in my favor. So I'm retracting any statements that allude to GCS being beneficial because I don't know. This is not to say I think it has a negative effect, because I don't know that either.


So, you respond to facts with name calling. Why does that not surprise me?
You haven't proven anything, so I haven't been responding to facts. I wasn't using the term "transphobe" as an insult, but rather a title for your anti-trans position. Could you please answer my question?
 
And now I'm going to clock out, but I'll probably go back and continue rabbit-holing another time. If the question was "Does GCS help trans people?" What I'm getting from this is "Maybe, Not really, Kind of, Yeah," and that's me interpreting it all generously in my favor. So I'm retracting any statements that allude to GCS being beneficial because I don't know. This is not to say I think it has a negative effect, because I don't know that either.


I dont entirely agree. But think you were fair enough with it. I'm not going to look any further though. I've spent enough time on it.

I posted a prior study showing that 20% of surgery patients had worse mental health outcomes. So, there may actually be a negative outcome.

These results support anecdotal reports that complication rates following gender affirming genital reconstruction are higher than are commonly reported in the surgical literature...

...Complication rates, including urethral compromise and worsened mental health, remain high for gender affirming penile reconstruction.

But, I feel you can now see why I wouldn't trust any of the studies, I hope. They really need better quality and get the activists (i.e. turban) out of it.
 
Last edited:
You are ignoring science because it doesn’t mesh with your agenda.
You are ignoring that scientific knowledge advances, and therefore changes. Get a newer edition.
 
Again. What makes a person a person is between their ears.
What makes a person male or female is between their legs.
The fact that transgender people exist is because their gender identity is at odds with their biological gender. Their gender identity cannot be changed so medical science changes their biological gender, as much as medically possible, to align with their gender identity. This seems to be something that you cannot grasp or that you refuse to accept. Our biological gender is inferior to our gender identity in terms of what gender we are and who we are. I'm almost to the point that there is no use counting to have a discussion with you because you reject facts that are inconvenient to your very simplistic views.

Determining if one is a male or a female is pretty simple. Figuring out how and why some people can't figure that out might be very complicated

See above because I'm not typing that out again b for someone who cannot get it through their head that gender identity exists. Your temper tantrum isn't impressing anyone and that idea was rejected by medical science more than 50 years ago.
 
You are ignoring that scientific knowledge advances, and therefore changes. Get a newer edition.
There aren't any scientific advances which say a person born a biological male is actually a female or vice versa.
 
See above because I'm not typing that out again b for someone who cannot get it through their head that gender identity exists. Your temper tantrum isn't impressing anyone and that idea was rejected by medical science more than 50 years ago.
Temper tantrum? I've simply calmly and politely stated facts.
 
The fact that transgender people exist is because their gender identity is at odds with their biological gender. Their gender identity cannot be changed so medical science changes their biological gender, as much as medically possible, to align with their gender identity. This seems to be something that you cannot grasp or that you refuse to accept. Our biological gender is inferior to our gender identity in terms of what gender we are and who we are. I'm almost to the point that there is no use counting to have a discussion with you because you reject facts that are inconvenient to your very simplistic views.



See above because I'm not typing that out again b for someone who cannot get it through their head that gender identity exists. Your temper tantrum isn't impressing anyone and that idea was rejected by medical science more than 50 years ago.

You accuse me of rejecting facts when you claim that being male or female is based on feelings, not biology.

A person's sex (male or female) is determined by biological markers: mainly gametes & gonads, also chromosomes. What you feel like doesn't change that fact. How can you say a person with male sexual organs, producing male gametes, and with male chromosomes is a female?
 
There aren't any scientific advances which say a person born a biological male is actually a female or vice versa.
If that person has a female psychological gender identity then you just described someone who is trans female.

Why is this so difficult for you to understand? What is holding you back from understanding this basic concept?

Temper tantrum? I've simply calmly and politely stated facts.
Your facts are rejecting basic medical concepts. Human sexuality is not determined wholly by external genitalia. This is why transgendered people exist. Being trans is not a choice and their gender identity cannot be changed.

You accuse me of rejecting facts when you claim that being male or female is based on feelings, not biology.

A person's sex (male or female) is determined by biological markers: mainly gametes & gonads, also chromosomes. What you feel like doesn't change that fact. How can you say a person with male sexual organs, producing male gametes, and with male chromosomes is a female?

No, it is not. This has been explained to you and I have posted numerous links from medical orgs. to research studies but still, you are convinced that our sexuality is determined wholly by genitalia or even DNA. Trans people would not exist if it was, but obviously, they do exist.

Do you claim to know more than the Mayo Clinic about gender? Where did you do your formal coursework on the subject?
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom