Flag burning

MSgt · Jun 22, 2005

I would be arrested, but I gaurantee I'd beat the rap.

This is not what our First Ammendment protects. This is just one more kind of perversion that the irresponsible get away with, because some people are so paranoid of becoming ruled that they would rather let other people do anything and destroy everything. People are afraid to say "no" and protect what this country used to be. Liberals are so quick to speak of what our Founding Father's meant when they wrote the Constitution. Can any of you honestly say that they sat around and had American flag burning in mind as a protected act? Don't use the term only when it suits. This would be more of that championed liberal hypocracy we so often see. Americans burning their own flag while other Americans rally for their right to do it, has got to be the ultimate joke for everyone else in the world. We don't see other countries condoning and protecting their citizens so that they can burn their country's flag. Liberals will be the source that destroys everything honorable in America. I wonder if the Democrats of old would be proud of what their party has turned into. For that matter, I wonder what Republicans and Democrats of old would think about how our Country has mutilated and self-servingly interpreted their Constitution.

The way our country is headed, the Constitution might as well only had one Ammendment......."free to do anything, responsible for nothing."

LaMidRighter · Jun 22, 2005

alex said:
Flag burning is a form of expression. People who do it are expressing dislike of their government. This is exactly what a big part of our First Amendment is about, to express our political dislikes.

There is alot of truth in what you are saying, I personally am appalled to tears(of rage) when I see someone burn our flag, it's even worse when our own citizens decide to do it. As Pacridge stated earlier, it says much about the person who decides to do it and none of it good. Personally, I believe that there should be a law against flag burning because as I see it, it is incindiary in nature and could be as destructive as yelling fire in a crowded theatre(the clear and present danger test) especially when done around gatherings of our brave men and women of the armed services(don't know if anyone has the gall and/or stupidity to try that, but it wouldn't surprise me). There are, in my opinion better ways to express concern about one's country, such as what we are doing here, good healthy debate, I find people are more prone to listen to me if I respect their opinions and speak to them with civility, rather than burn a flag or other acts to rile them up.

Also, this amendment would be a law for the people. Our Constitution is not meant to prohibit the people from doing anything, it is meant to control our government.

No argument, the constitution also gives the government the responsiblility to provide for the public good which would required extremely limited controls on rights, flag burning, I feel, is therefore covered under this responsibility because as I stated earlier, it could potentially be a public safety issue.

People who want it to pass have no real understanding of our Constitution.

I think that is generalizing there, some may not, but you would be surprised how well people who want these amendments are versed in U.S. constitutional matters.

MSgt · Jun 22, 2005

Nobody burns the flag to be heard. They do it for attention and to be ass-holes, because they are too ignorant to voice their opinions any other way. It serves no purpose. If they don't like their government, there are ways to do it that are layed out in the constitution. It's called voting.

26 X World Champs · Jun 23, 2005

GySgt said:
Nobody burns the flag to be heard. They do it for attention and to be ass-holes, because they are too ignorant to voice their opinions any other way. It serves no purpose. If they don't like their government, there are ways to do it that are layed out in the constitution. It's called voting.

Voting is one way, not the only way. Living with this is not the worst thing that can happen to America.

How do you feel about Nazis or the KKK being allowed to have websites that promote hate or parades that celebrate hate?

Pacridge · Jun 23, 2005

LaMidRighter said:
I see it, it is incindiary in nature and could be as destructive as yelling fire in a crowded theatre(the clear and present danger test) especially when done around gatherings of our brave men and women of the armed services(don't know if anyone has the gall and/or stupidity to try that, but it wouldn't surprise me)

Back in 83' I was in San Fran. attending welding "A" school on Treasure Island. On Veterans day they had us march in a Parade through the finanical district in downtown S.F. We had the pleasure of marching by as people burned flags and threw stuff at us. All while yelling for us to get out of places I'd never been to. A good freind of mine who was standing next to me got hit in the head with a coke bottle.

Some people are morons and it will always be that way.

LaMidRighter said:
No argument, the constitution also gives the government the responsiblility to provide for the public good which would required extremely limited controls on rights, flag burning, I feel, is therefore covered under this responsibility because as I stated earlier, it could potentially be a public safety issue. I think that is generalizing there, some may not, but you would be surprised how well people who want these amendments are versed in U.S. constitutional matters.

I still say it's a Const. protected action. If they are indeed causing a public safety problem that may be illegal. But if not I don't think our Const. allows you stop people from doing or saying dumba*s things.

Fu_chick · Jun 23, 2005

GySgt said:
Nobody burns the flag to be heard. They do it for attention and to be ass-holes, because they are too ignorant to voice their opinions any other way. It serves no purpose. If they don't like their government, there are ways to do it that are layed out in the constitution. It's called voting.

So all things done for attention by ass-holes, as well as things that serve no purpose, should be made illegal? Wow--that's going to be a long list.

stsburns · Jun 23, 2005

Fu_chick said:
Yuck, I hate leaving things up to Congress. They usually screw it up.

I am really going to have to agree with Soviet_Guy here, God help me. I DO NOT think that there should be a law against burning flags or even giving Congress the authority to outlaw flag-burning. Nobody said that freedom of expression was going to be pretty. I truly hope this bill dies, I think we could be opening a very unfortunate door here.

Girl, they are the ones to decide whether it becomes a law, not "Bloggers" on the internet. :2wave:

JustineCredible · Jun 23, 2005

Fu_chick said:
I'm a big advocate of personal responsibility. People have as choice as to how they are going to react to things. If you chose to react violently because someone called you a nasty name, that is YOUR problem, no theirs.

No, that's not what I'm saying. As in my example of Fred Phelps, it's not those whom he's directed his comments to who have become violent, but more so those who actually agree with him!
It's inciting a mob mentality, a coach which excites his team before the "big game."

Fu_chick · Jun 23, 2005

LaMidRighter said:
There is alot of truth in what you are saying, I personally am appalled to tears(of rage) when I see someone burn our flag, it's even worse when our own citizens decide to do it. As Pacridge stated earlier, it says much about the person who decides to do it and none of it good. Personally, I believe that there should be a law against flag burning because as I see it, it is incindiary in nature and could be as destructive as yelling fire in a crowded theatre(the clear and present danger test) especially when done around gatherings of our brave men and women of the armed services(don't know if anyone has the gall and/or stupidity to try that, but it wouldn't surprise me). There are, in my opinion better ways to express concern about one's country, such as what we are doing here, good healthy debate, I find people are more prone to listen to me if I respect their opinions and speak to them with civility, rather than burn a flag or other acts to rile them up.

Lots of things can evoke the same sort of reaction. A few years back there was a KKK rally in a nearby town that is almost all black. You don't think that THAT was incendiary?

If flag-burning is outlawed, what's next? Do you think it should be illegal for people to demonstrate against military actions? Those can and do cause vigorous reactions from those that disagree. I also wonder how many actual beatings have really been inspired by flag0burning. My guess is not many.

JustineCredible · Jun 23, 2005

Squawker said:
I don't know when we applied freedom of speech to inanimate objects. It isn't the same at all, so I hope it passes. It shows disrespect to our country, not a statement against a particular policy.

Was it a form of expression for Sinade O'Connor to tear up the photo of the Pope on SNL?
Is it a form of expression to where t-shirts with political slogans on them?
Is it a form of expression to have bumper stickers which state paticular ideals?
Is it a form of expression to paint your house in whatever color you choose?

Photos, t-shirts, bumper stickers and even as mundane as it may seem you paint color of your house....these are ALL inanimate objects.

OF COURSE the law applies.
It's just silly to think otherwise.

JustineCredible · Jun 23, 2005

GySgt said:
If burning the flag is a form of free speech, then kicking their ass is a form of mine.

There is absolutely no way I stand by and watch someone do that without running head first into the crowd. Exercising our rights should not entail abusing them and there is no way men in uniform should be protecting freedoms so that traitors can be allowed to do that. The ultimate insult to our country is delivered on a platter by our own Constitution. The founding father's had no idea that America would fall so far from grace that their Constitution would be so perverted.

Actually I believe our founding fathers meant exactly for these forms of expression to be protected.
As a vet, I proudly vowed to protect my country and it's borders from enemies both foreign and domestic. It's domestic terrorism to attempt to reconstruct our Constitution just so some people won't be offended by the freedoms it enumerates!

I take what has been attributed to Voltaire to heart.

"I may not like what you say, but I will defend to the death, your right to say it."

I believe that is the purest essence of what Freedom of Speech truly is.

JustineCredible · Jun 23, 2005

GySgt said:
Nobody burns the flag to be heard. They do it for attention

Calm down and just re-read what you just wrote. "They do it for attention." What is attention?
Is being heard a form of attention?
Could it be that being heard is exactly the "attention" someone is looking for when they do burn a flag?

GySgt said:
and to be ass-holes, because they are too ignorant to voice their opinions any other way.

Actually, I believe those who do burn flags have voiced their opinions and are not being heard at all. They are usually those who have been ignored. Burning the flag is their last resort. The one thing that will guaruntee they are heard.

GySgt said:
It serves no purpose.

Maybe to you, but to someone who's burning the flag, I'm sure it does.

GySgt said:
If they don't like their government, there are ways to do it that are layed out in the constitution. It's called voting.

Dissent and Patriotism

"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from the government.
- Thomas Paine

"A President is impeachable if he attempts to subvert the Constitution".
-- President James Madison

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither."
- Ben Franklin

"If ever time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin."
- Samuel Adams

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
- Edmund Burke

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or exercise their revolutionary right to overthrow it."
- President Abraham Lincoln

"In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce and brave man, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."
- 'Mark Twain'

"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the President."
- President Theodore Roosevelt

"The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly as necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else."
- President Theodore Roosevelt, 1912

"I love America more than any other country in this world, and, exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually."
- James Baldwin, Notes of a Native Son

"So long as we have enough people in this country willing to fight for their rights, we'll be called a democracy."
- Roger Baldwin

"Disobedience, in the eyes of any one who has read history, is man's original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and through rebellion."
- Oscar Wilde

"Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it."
- George Bernard Shaw

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort, and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."
- Dr. Martin Luther King

"Throughout history, it has been the inaction of those who could have acted; the indifference of those who should have known better; the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered most; that has made it possible for evil to triumph."
- Haile Selassie

"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter."
- Reverend Martin Luther King Jr.

LaMidRighter · Jun 23, 2005

Fu_chick said:
Fu_chick said:

Lots of things can evoke the same sort of reaction. A few years back there was a KKK rally in a nearby town that is almost all black. You don't think that THAT was incendiary?

Click to expand...

The thing that's missing here is that this rally, although bigoted and probably offensive depending on the makeup and message of the rally, should not be violent at face value(although the possibility certainly exists) many "hate" groups assemble peaceable and march to a message whether we like said message or not, however, burning a flag is a violent act in itself, think about this, when you see people cheering a U.S. tragedy, what is the thing you normally see, a flag burning, burning in effigy is much the same way to tell you the truth, these acts serve as an informal and non-verbal decoration of hate or war. Many attempts have been made to eliminate similar acts by U.S. governments such as cross burning, which is essentially the same thing, n'est pas?

If flag-burning is outlawed, what's next? Do you think it should be illegal for people to demonstrate against military actions?

Click to expand...

Depends on the form of dissent, anything verbal or peacefully symbolic would be fine, but if you are speaking of things like what happened during vietnam where soldiers had things thrown at them and the like, then yes,

Those can and do cause vigorous reactions from those that disagree. I also wonder how many actual beatings have really been inspired by flag0burning. My guess is not many.

Click to expand...

That is why local law enforcement is trained in crowd control, to diffuse the situation and end it peacably.

LaMidRighter · Jun 23, 2005

LaMidRighter said:
LaMidRighter said:

burning a flag is a violent act in itself, think about this, when you see people cheering a U.S. tragedy, what is the thing you normally see, a flag burning, burning in effigy is much the same way to tell you the truth, these acts serve as an informal and non-verbal decoration of hate or war.

Click to expand...

Folks, I goofed and goofed bad, decoration was supposed to be declaration. That's one(more) on me. :doh :3oops:

MSgt · Jun 23, 2005

We shouldn't be angry at the 9/11 incident either. The angry Islamists were just wanting attention and it is their human right to be heard.

Some Internet sites and rallies should be hated, while being protected. KKK jackasses are subject to the law, but once they burn the flag, they have gone too far. Only, we have no definition of what too far is any more. America's morality has sunk so far down in the name of "freedom" it is sickening. Nobody is willing to stand for anything, unless it furthers their own personal agendas. According to 1st Ammendment watch dogs, slander and liable attack our freedoms of speech too. While protecting decency, why not protect the flag?

Hiding behind and perverting the Constitution has been the tools of choice for every lawyer trying to get their clients off from wrong doings. Every time they succeed, we lose more of our integrity. This country was built on a Constitution that freed us from oppression. It was not intended as a door way to anarchy. It's just a matter of time, before hitting someone in the face will be a freedom of expression and there you will find the liberal shouting for his right to do it.

shuamort · Jun 23, 2005

To all of you supporting this amendment, let me ask you a couple questions since you believe burning the US flag is wrong.

What about a State flag, is that wrong?
What about a foreign flag, is that wrong?
What about a picture of President Bush?
What about a picture of President Clinton?

MSgt · Jun 23, 2005

All those should be fine unless individual States want to do something about it. The line should be drawn at the National Ensign. Pictures of men that will go away after 4/8 years hardly hold the weight of our flag. Just like we shouldn't be afraid to open the door to stem cell research, we shouldn't be afraid open the door that would protect our flag. Nothing say's it has to go past that. It is rediculous to think that our country will be weakend by protecting the flag.

Why should we expect other nations respect when we applaud our own peoples right to burn our own flag. Our greatest self-inflicted joke delivered to the world for their amusement.

V.I. Lenin · Jun 23, 2005

The Turkey was almost America's national bird. It should be illegal to burn that too.

But honestly people, it's a flag. If someone wants to burn it, fine. Should we really be wasting time debating the rights of a cloth when so many other things are happening.

JustineCredible · Jun 23, 2005

galenrox said:
Dude, there's no comparison between burning a flag and knocking down the twin towers killing 3,000 people.
That's because there in one primary difference, when a flag is burned NO ONE GETS HURT! If I went home right now and set a flag on fire, guess how many people would die from it! Just guess! Million bucks says it's less than 3,000, actually, million bucks says it's less than one!

Now don't get me wrong, some pinko commie liberal burning a flag pisses me off so much that steam shoots out my ears, but that doesn't change the fact that they should have a right to, just like I should have a right to explain to them what whiney, overdramatic ****ing brats it makes them.

You bet your sweet bippy, that's what it's all about. The freedom to have dissenting opinions about our nation, our government, even individuals...and be able to voice those opinions freely.

As long as no one elses rights to do the same are infringed upon. As long as the words spoken to not cause injury or harm to anyone else.

galenrox said:
It's been said "I may disagree with every word you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say them". THAT is what being an American is about! It's that right to not be patriotic,

I have to disagree with your last statement here. It IS Patriotic to burn a flag, it's NATIONALISM that would prohibit it's burning.

galenrox said:
it's that right to even outright hate America if you so well please, it's that right to believe WHATEVER you want, and express it in anyway you want as long as it does not impune upon another's life or liberty which burning a flag clearly does not.

Agreed, 100%. It's the essense of what it means to live in a society which protects the freedom of speech, to allow dissent. That's what a democracy is all about.

galenrox said:
Don't forget why America was founded in the first place, because we were looking for freedom to express ourselves from an oppressive government, do we really want an oppressive government restricting our self expression here too?

Absolutely.

JustineCredible · Jun 23, 2005

galenrox said:
I have to disagree about flag burning being patriotic. Expressing your problems with the government is patriotic, fighting to reach what America is supposed to be is patriotic. Burning a flag, which stands for what America is supposed to be is not. That is similar to saying "**** you America", or at least that's how I percieve it.
That doesn't change the fact that anyone should have the right to say "**** you America!" in any way they see fit, as long as it doesn't hurt anybody!

I respectfully disagree.
Bellow is a fine explaination of the difference between the two terms.

Patriotism or Nationalism

Let me offer a definition of the word “Patriotism.”

Commitment to the core principles and values of the nation, the values on which the nation was established. Results in knowing and holding to the Constitution and its principles and limits. Tends to view violations of the Constitution as treason.

And let me offer a definition of the word “Nationalism.”

Commitment to the nation, to the people within that nation, and to its leaders. Often results in people following a leader with whom they may not agree on important issues for the sake of unity. Produces a unified voice, often at the cost of honest debate. Tends to view disagreement with the majority as “bad,” and maybe even as treason.

Let me try to give an example to further illustrate the difference between the two words. During WWII, most of the German people stood with their leaders. Over the years, I have met a number of German people, some of whom were soldiers and some of whom were civilians during that war. All of them have admitted that they either didn’t know about the atrocities committed by their leaders, or else they had heard about them but chose to not believe them. And all of them felt it was important to present a unified front to the world and its people. On the other hand, the leaders of Germany not only knew about these atrocities, but believed in them. The leaders were committed to the idea of the Master Race and to the need for purging their country of those people who were not part of this Master Race. Killing millions of Jews, gypsies and other races that might pollute the bloodline was a necessary step to creating this great nation to which they all were committed.

I believe that the leaders of Nazi Germany were patriots, believing in and committed to the core values of their nation. The bulk of the people were nationalistic in their perspective, not really believing in the core values of their nation but still committed to following their national leaders.

In many ways, I believe contemporary Americans are similar to those German citizens. They may be committed to their country and their national leaders, but they are largely not familiar with the core values that our Founding Fathers shared between each other and built into this Great Nation at its birth. Many Americans are committed to what America is today, not what America was created to be more than two hundred years ago.

The speech I have referenced is actually quite long, but if you have the time, I encourage you (anyone interested) to read it in full.

JustineCredible · Jun 23, 2005

galenrox said:
That is interesting. But it is from that definition that I see flag burning as unpatriotic, at least in my opinion. I guess it all depends on what the flag means to you. If it means nothing, then burning it means nothing too. If it stands for America now, then burning it can be a perfectly good patriotic protest against the current American government. But for me, the flag represents what America is supposed to be, the ideal, it represents, for me, the core belief of what this country is, and so I believe when someone burns the flag they're giving a big middle finger to the core beliefs of this country. But that's just my interpretation.

...and it's not a bad interpretation by any means. If that's what works for you, fine.
I would just hope that by those core values, you would not advocate restricting my right to express my dissent...and if I felt it necessary...to burn a flag. (Not that I have any imediate intention of doing so...but...)

26 X World Champs · Jun 23, 2005

Ironocially, do you know what the official US FLAG CODE says about the disposal of a tattered flag?

(k) The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.

Source? The Flag Code
Title 4, United States Code, Chapter 1 Section K

What do you make of this?

Pacridge · Jun 23, 2005

26 X World Champs said:
Ironocially, do you know what the official US FLAG CODE says about the disposal of a tattered flag?

Source? The Flag Code
Title 4, United States Code, Chapter 1 Section K

What do you make of this?

I know I burned two just last year.

guns_God_glory · Jun 23, 2005

I agree with you guys. It's a form of expression. It's kinda wierd how many men died fighting under that flag so you could have the right to burn it. It's a form of expression but if i ever happen to see anyone expreesing themselves that way, I'll express myself...

26 X World Champs · Jun 23, 2005

guns_God_glory said:
if i ever happen to see anyone expreesing themselves that way, I'll express myself with my fist in their face.

It's this type of macho talk that brings down America to an unacceptable standard.

The concept of committing an assault against someone whose burning a flag escapes me. Not only are you advocating violence, but you're justifying it because you're outraged by a symbolic expression.

Question? How many flags are burned in the USA every year as a protest? I can't believe more than five, though I have no proof....

Flag burning

Should US flag buring be illegal?

No it's a form of expression

Yes it should be illegal

I really do not care

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