Finland Races Toward Likely NATO Membership as Putin's Warnings Backfire

[lwf]

Doesn’t change the fact that your premise still doesn’t hold water. Cuba sought protection from a superpower and the US still happily continued its active attempts to overthrow Castro.

Giving into fearmongering doesn’t make your country safer.

No one is giving into fear mongering by joining NATO. They are exercising common sense.

 

[Fledermaus]

fearmongering
fearmongering
fearmongering
fearmongering
fearmongering

The new parrot point.

 

[Tigerace117]

No one is giving into fear mongering by joining NATO. They are exercising common sense.

Your premise that if they don’t join Russia will invade is blatant fearmongering.

 

[Fledermaus]

Your premise that if they don’t join Russia will invade is blatant fearmongering.

Putin Parrot Point

 

[lwf]

Your premise that if they don’t join Russia will invade is blatant fearmongering.

That isn't my premise. My premise is that if they don't join NATO, they will be vulnerable to Russian invasion if Russia decides to do so. The difference between Finland and Mexico is: The US has not provided evidence that it is willing to invade its neighbors in order to expand its territory. Russia has. While it is nice to hope that Russia wouldn't violate its treaties and invade Finland they way they did Ukraine if they don't join NATO, it is foolish for Finland to assume that they won't. That would be poor geopolitical strategy on the part of Finland and would be a betrayal of the Finnish people by their own government to do everything in its power to keep them safe.

 

[Tigerace117]

That isn't my premise. My premise is that if they don't join NATO, they will be vulnerable to Russian invasion if Russia decides to do so. The difference between Finland and Mexico is: The US has not provided evidence that it is willing to invade its neighbors in order to expand its territory. Russia has. While it is nice to hope that Russia wouldn't violate its treaties and invade Finland they way they did Ukraine if they don't join NATO, it is foolish for Finland to assume that they won't. That would be poor geopolitical strategy on the part of Finland and would be a betrayal of the Finnish people by their own government to do everything in its power to keep them safe.

You literally said that if they don’t join NATO “they’ll be the next Ukraine”. That’s blatant fearmongering.

The US has invaded its neighbors literally dozens of times throughout its history, which makes your premise rather silly.

Ah, and now we get even further into the fearmongering. “If Finland doesn’t join NATO it’s a betrayal” my ass. The last fifty plus years of geopolitical strategy shows that Russia is quite happy with Finnish neutrality.

 

[lwf]

You literally said that if they don’t join NATO “they’ll be the next Ukraine”. That’s blatant fearmongering.

The US has invaded its neighbors literally dozens of times throughout its history, which makes your premise rather silly.

Ah, and now we get even further into the fearmongering. “If Finland doesn’t join NATO it’s a betrayal” my ass. The last fifty plus years of geopolitical strategy shows that Russia is quite happy with Finnish neutrality.

The US is invading neither Mexico or Canada. Finland not joining NATO would absolutely be a betrayal of its people, as Russia has proven that it is willing to violate treaties and attack its neighbors for territorial gain.

If your next door neighbor went into an unprovoked armed conflict with his neighbor on the other side in order to steal his land, you would be a fool not to arm yourself in anticipation that he might one day do the same to you. You would be betraying your family by sitting on your hands and doing nothing.

 

[Tigerace117]

The US is invading neither Mexico or Canada. Finland not joining NATO would absolutely be a betrayal of its people, as Russia has proven that it is willing to violate treaties and attack its neighbors for territorial gain.

If your next door neighbor went into an unprovoked armed conflict with his neighbor on the other side in order to steal his land, you would be a fool not to arm yourself in anticipation that he might one day do the same to you.

The US has invaded its neighbors dozens of times throughout its history, which makes that part of your argument a joke.

The West blathered the same nonsense for decades during the Cold War. Guess what? Finland stayed neutral, and Finland didn’t get invaded.

 

[watsup]

The US has invaded its neighbors dozens of times throughout its history, which makes that part of your argument a joke.

The West blathered the same nonsense for decades during the Cold War. Guess what? Finland stayed neutral, and Finland didn’t get invaded.

Putin loves you.
And “blathered” = just your normal psychological projection.

 

[Fledermaus]

The US has invaded its neighbors dozens of times throughout its history, which makes that part of your argument a joke.

The West blathered the same nonsense for decades during the Cold War. Guess what? Finland stayed neutral, and Finland didn’t get invaded.

Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Afghanistan, Georgia, etc. did.

 

[lwf]

The US has invaded its neighbors dozens of times throughout its history, which makes that part of your argument a joke.

The West blathered the same nonsense for decades during the Cold War. Guess what? Finland stayed neutral, and Finland didn’t get invaded.

The US is not currently invading any of its neighbors, nor is there reason to believe that it will. Russia is. Therefore there is reason to believe that it will continue. NATO membership can prevent this.

 

[watsup]

You literally said that if they don’t join NATO “they’ll be the next Ukraine”. That’s blatant fearmongering.

The US has invaded its neighbors literally dozens of times throughout its history, which makes your premise rather silly.

Ah, and now we get even further into the fearmongering. “If Finland doesn’t join NATO it’s a betrayal” my ass. The last fifty plus years of geopolitical strategy shows that Russia is quite happy with Finnish neutrality.

One trick pony.

 

[Chagos]

What happened between Finland and the Soviet Union during the last 50 years or more is irrelevant to what is happening in and with Russia nowadays.

The Finnish populace, while always hesitant wrt any NATO membership in the past, appears to now be in total favor of it.

The Kremlin in its current composition of law-breaking thugs has achieved that.

 

[Tigerace117]

Putin loves you.
And “blathered” = just your normal psychological projection.

Oh look, another thread where’s watsup can’t muster an actual argument.

 

[Tigerace117]

What happened between Finland and the Soviet Union during the last 50 years or more is irrelevant to what is happening in and with Russia nowadays.

The Finnish populace, while always hesitant wrt any NATO membership in the past, appears to now be in total favor of it.

The Kremlin in its current composition of law-breaking thugs has achieved that.

If Stalin himself was happy with a neutral Finland.....why are we to believe that Putin would suddenly invade?

 

[Tigerace117]

The US is not currently invading any of its neighbors, nor is there reason to believe that it will. Russia is. Therefore there is reason to believe that it will continue. NATO membership can prevent this.

There is no reason to believe Russia will invade Finland whatsoever, other than hysterical fearmongering.

 

[lwf]

There is no reason to believe Russia will invade Finland whatsoever, other than hysterical fearmongering.

Russia's current unprovoked invasion of Ukraine, a sovereign neighbor it has treaties with, is reason to suspect that it could invade Finland, another sovereign neighbor it has treaties with, in the future.

Weren't you one of the people who said that you had no reason to think that Russia would invade Ukraine last year?

 

[Tigerace117]

Russia's current unprovoked invasion of Ukraine, a sovereign neighbor it has treaties with, is reason to suspect that it could invade Finland, another sovereign neighbor it has treaties with, in the future.

Weren't you one of the people who said that you had no reason to think that Russia would invade Ukraine last year?

That’s like saying America’s invasion of Iraq means it could invade Argentina, so Argentina should ally with China. It’s totally nonsensical because the two situations aren’t even remotely comparable, as I keep trying to make you understand. Countries don’t invade other countries for shits and giggles.

 

[lwf]

That’s like saying America’s invasion of Iraq means it could invade Argentina, so Argentina should ally with China. It’s totally nonsensical because the two situations aren’t even remotely comparable, as I keep trying to make you understand. Countries don’t invade other countries for shits and giggles.

The US invades other countries for human rights violations and to prevent the acquisition of weapons of mass destruction, not for territorial gain, as is evidenced by all US invasions in modern history. Russia invades other countries for territorial gain, as is evidenced by the current Russian invasion of Ukraine and its annexation of Crimea. Since Argentina is not illegally attempting to acquire weapons of mass destruction or violating the human rights of its citizens en masse, it has nothing to fear from the US. Since Finland shares a border with Russia like Ukraine does, it has much to fear from Russia.

 

[Tigerace117]

The US invades other countries for human rights violations and to prevent the acquisition of weapons of mass destruction, not for territorial gain, as is evidenced by all US invasions in modern history. Russia invades other countries for territorial gain, as is evidenced by the current Russian invasion of Ukraine and its annexation of Crimea. Since Argentina is not illegally attempting to acquire weapons of mass destruction or violating the human rights of its citizens en masse, it has nothing to fear from the US. Since Finland shares a border with Russia like Ukraine does, it has much to fear from Russia.

Which doesn’t change the fact that it invaded them, often for reasons which turn out to be flimsy at best, and I rather doubt it matters to the Iraqis that we were invading them because we meant well

Once again, Russia’s criteria for territorial gain are “large amounts of natural resources and a large Russian speaking/ ethnic Russian populace. The Russians have large amounts of the same minerals that can be found in Finland in Karelia, which they own. The latter flat out doesn’t exist in Finland.

There isn’t a reason for an invasion. Period. Pretending otherwise is fearmongering, nothing but.

 

[lwf]

Which doesn’t change the fact that it invaded them, often for reasons which turn out to be flimsy at best, and I rather doubt it matters to the Iraqis that we were invading them because we meant well

Once again, Russia’s criteria for territorial gain are “large amounts of natural resources and a large Russian speaking/ ethnic Russian populace. The Russians have large amounts of the same minerals that can be found in Finland in Karelia, which they own. The latter flat out doesn’t exist in Finland.

There isn’t a reason for an invasion. Period. Pretending otherwise is fearmongering, nothing but.

But you didn't think Russia would invade Ukraine either until they did. Maybe Russia isn't as predictable as you think it is? Maybe if Ukraine had joined NATO years ago they would still have Crimea and their cities wouldn't be rubble right now.

Ukraine rolled the dice on Russian predictability and lost. Can Finland afford to do the same?

 

[Tigerace117]

But you didn't think Russia would invade Ukraine either until they did. Maybe Russia isn't as predictable as you think it is? Maybe if Ukraine had joined NATO years ago they would still have Crimea and their cities wouldn't be rubble right now.

Ukraine rolled the dice on Russian predictability and lost. Can Finland afford to do the same?

Yes, because they aren’t in Ukraine’s situation, and Russia has nothing to attack them over.

 

[Irredentist]

Yes, because they aren’t in Ukraine’s situation, and Russia has nothing to attack them over.

Finland has absolutely no reason to trust Russia, given their extensive history of aggressive expansionism against their neighbors, including Finland. Staying neutral is a gamble, whereas joining NATO offers guaranteed security. The logical choice is clear.

 

[Ginger Ale]

By and large, giving in to fearmongering doesn’t actually make one any safer.

Yeah, tell Putin that.

 

[Tigerace117]

Finland has absolutely no reason to trust Russia, given their extensive history of aggressive expansionism against their neighbors, including Finland. Staying neutral is a gamble, whereas joining NATO offers guaranteed security. The logical choice is clear.

By that logic Cuba should ask for the nukes back tomorrow(hell, American aggression towards Cuba is WAY more recent than the Winter War).

oh, and btw, the last fifty years or so shows quite clearly that Russia is more than happy with Finnish neutrality, which makes your argument equally nonsensical.