Finland Races Toward Likely NATO Membership as Putin's Warnings Backfire

[Tigerace117]

Repeatedly demanding evidence that you plainly mean to declare not evidence is just about the dumbest internet tactic out there.

Gee bud, do YOU have his evidence?

Or did you just want to whine?

 

[lwf]

Which doesn’t change the fact that Finland and Ukraine’s situations aren’t even remotely comparable, no matter how much you squirm.

Your post is akin to the fearmongering gun companies do every time a Democratic President gets elected. “They’re coming for you! They’re gonna get you unless you listen to us!”

Not only is it fearmongering, it’s DUMB fearmongering to boot.

I'm not saying that Russia is coming for Finland or Sweden. I'm saying that it is foolish for Finland and Sweden to assume that they aren't in light of the current invasion of Russia's sovereign neighbor. Plan for the worst and hope for the best. A US invasion of Canada would not imply that it is going to invade Mexico. But Mexico would be foolish to assume that it couldn't happen, and would be fools not to prepare for it.

 

[Tigerace117]

I'm not saying that Russia is coming for Finland or Sweden. I'm saying that it is foolish for Finland and Sweden to assume that they aren't in light of the current invasion of Russia's sovereign neighbor. Plan for the worst and hope for the best. A US invasion of Canada would not imply that it is going to invade Mexico. But Mexico would be foolish to assume that it couldn't happen, and would be fools not to prepare for it.

You literally said, in post 13, that if they don’t join NATO Russia is going to invade. That’s blatant fearmongering, and it ignores the massive differences in Ukraine and Finland’s situation as well as more than fifty years of Russian foreign policy precedent.

 

[lwf]

You literally said, in post 13, that if they don’t join NATO Russia is going to invade. That’s blatant fearmongering, and it ignores the massive differences in Ukraine and Finland’s situation as well as more than fifty years of Russian foreign policy precedent.

That's exactly what they should assume. Again, prepare for the worst. If the US invaded Canada, Mexico would be foolish to assume that it was safe from US expansionism. It's entirely possible that it would be safe, an invasion of Canada wouldn't logically automatically equate to an invasion of Mexico, but it would be absolutely stupid of anyone to argue that Mexico needn't prepare for a US invasion in that case, simply because "Mexico's situation is completely different than Canada's." It would not be fear mongering to encourage Mexico to prepare for a US invasion in the event that the US invaded Canada, it would be simple common sense. The US would have proven itself untrustworthy in this scenario and willing to violate treaties. Only an idiot would assume that the treaties the US has with Mexico must be considered inviolable, even when they were not with Canada.

So it is with Russia. Russia can no longer be trusted. It's treaties are not worth the paper they were printed on. NATO can protect European countries from Russian expansionism, if and when it decides to expand. Even if it doesn't, isn't it better to be safe than sorry?

 

[Tigerace117]

That's exactly what they should assume. Again, prepare for the worst. If the US invaded Canada, Mexico would be foolish to assume that it was safe from US expansionism. It's entirely possible that it would be, an invasion of Canada wouldn't logically equate to an invasion of Mexico, but it would be absolutely stupid of anyone to argue that Mexico needn't prepare for a US invasion, since Mexico's situation is completely different than Canada's. It would not be fear mongering to encourage Mexico to prepare for a US invasion in the event that the US invaded Canada, it would be simple common sense.

Except, again, for the fact that Finland’s situation isn’t even remotely comparable to Ukraine, and pretending it is is nothing more than fearmongering.

 

[Fledermaus]

Except, again, for the fact that Finland’s situation isn’t even remotely comparable to Ukraine, and pretending it is is nothing more than fearmongering.

Intentional ignorance.

 

[lwf]

Except, again, for the fact that Finland’s situation isn’t even remotely comparable to Ukraine, and pretending it is is nothing more than fearmongering.

I'm not pretending Finland's situation is even remotely comparable to Ukraine. It doesn't need to be in order to be invaded by Russia.

 

[beefheart]

Ireland has been talking about joining NATO as well.

 

[Tigerace117]

I'm not pretending Finland's situation is even remotely comparable to Ukraine. It doesn't need to be in order to be invaded by Russia.

Except there’s no evidence that Russia is actually going to invade, and pretending otherwise is blatant fearmongering

 

[lwf]

Except there’s no evidence that Russia is actually going to invade, and pretending otherwise is blatant fearmongering

There is no evidence that your house is going to be burglarized. Is it fear mongering to suggest that you lock your doors at night?

In a town with no burglars, perhaps. But there is a burglar in Finland's town, and he lives next door.

 

[Chagos]

Except there’s no evidence that Russia is actually going to invade, and pretending otherwise is blatant fearmongering

Since Russia has, to the best of my knowledge, so far not voiced any intention to invade Finland, the verdict must remain open for the time being.

It's when the Kremlin states that it won't that everybody will know that it will.

 

[Tigerace117]

There is no evidence that your house is going to be burglarized. Is it fear mongering to suggest that you lock your doors at night?

In a town with no burglars, perhaps. But there is a burglar in Finland's town, and he lives next door.

It’s certainly fearmongering to suggest that unless you buy the newest security system, and an AR-15, and Claymore land mines you WILL have someone break into your house and kill you.

 

[Ginger Ale]

The same kind of tactics they used during the Night Frost Crisis. Duh.

I don't think that would work now. I don't think Finland gives a shit what Russia thinks about them, unlike in the past, Finland has out paced Russia in progress and has way more to lose refusing NATO than joining it. Putin has nobody to blame but himself for this change of respect.

 

[lwf]

It’s certainly fearmongering to suggest that unless you buy the newest security system, and an AR-15, and Claymore land mines you WILL have someone break into your house and kill you.

They certainly broke into Ukraine's house and killed them.

 

[Ginger Ale]

For the same reason America has spent the last fifty plus years threatening Cuba.

But then again, the fact that Finland wasn’t spun off as a a puppet state says otherwise.....quite clearly.

Tis the world in love and war. But, Russia isn't the big boy they once were looking at their army in Ukraine. They're an old weak man.
Finland isn't even afraid of them and most of the Russian people don't back Putin's vision, except the equally old and nearly dead population.

Ukraine wasn't played well by Putin, and I doubt Finland would obey the wishes of a washed up old man just because he asserts his dislike. Their would need to be more of a threat than that.

The world changes all the time. So does it's weight.

 

[Ginger Ale]

They certainly broke into Ukraine's house and killed them.

Well, they're trying to kill them. Looks like they broke in and the home owner was packin. A few more Russians are dying than expected I bet. The Russian Army is now just showing the world how pathetic they are.

They only have the "nuke" card to play, and that's getting old.

 

[Tigerace117]

They certainly broke into Ukraine's house and killed them.

And, as I keep explaining to you, Finland’s situation isn’t even remotely similar, so fearmongering about them being “the next Ukraine” is stupid.

 

[lwf]

And, as I keep explaining to you, Finland’s situation isn’t even remotely similar, so fearmongering about them being “the next Ukraine” is stupid.

They should still join NATO. It would be foolish not to.

 

[Fledermaus]

And, as I keep explaining to you, Finland’s situation isn’t even remotely similar, so fearmongering about them being “the next Ukraine” is stupid.

Broken record goes round and round
.

 

[Tigerace117]

They should still join NATO. It would be foolish not to.

By and large, giving in to fearmongering doesn’t actually make one any safer.

 

[lwf]

By and large, giving in to fearmongering doesn’t actually make one any safer.

But being in a defensive alliance when your neighbor has proven able and willing to invade your other neighbor certainly does.

 

[Tigerace117]

But being in a defensive alliance when your neighbor has proven able and willing to invade your other neighbor certainly does.

It didn’t for Cuba.

All working with the Soviets to protect themselves got them was decades of continued US actions against them.

And you can say what you want about the Cuban dictatorship, but it’s been throughly established the people there preferred it to what the US and exiles were offering.

 

[lwf]

It didn’t for Cuba.

All working with the Soviets to protect themselves got them was decades of continued US actions against them.

The Soviets were the weaker country. Finland joining NATO would get them US protection in the event of war with Russia. Instead of being unsure how they would fare IF Russia decided to invade, they can rest easy knowing exactly how they would fare in this scenario, and also in knowing that the scenario is orders of magnitude less likely.

 

[Tigerace117]

The Soviets were the weaker country. Finland joining NATO would get them US protection in the event of war with Russia. Instead of being unsure how they would fare IF Russia decided to invade, they can rest easy knowing exactly how they would fare in this scenario.

Doesn’t change the fact that your premise still doesn’t hold water. Cuba sought protection from a superpower and the US still happily continued its active attempts to overthrow Castro.

Giving into fearmongering doesn’t make your country safer.

 

[Fledermaus]

Doesn’t change the fact that your premise still doesn’t hold water. Cuba sought protection from a superpower and the US still happily continued its active attempts to overthrow Castro.

Giving into fearmongering doesn’t make your country safer.

When did the US invade Cuba after the Communist take over?