Finland Races Toward Likely NATO Membership as Putin's Warnings Backfire

[Ginger Ale]

The US has invaded its neighbors dozens of times throughout its history, which makes that part of your argument a joke.

The West blathered the same nonsense for decades during the Cold War. Guess what? Finland stayed neutral, and Finland didn’t get invaded.

Is Ukraine part of NATO? NO! Did Russia attack Ukraine, YES! Next....

 

[Irredentist]

By that logic Cuba should ask for the nukes back tomorrow(hell, American aggression towards Cuba is WAY more recent than the Winter War).

oh, and btw, the last fifty years or so shows quite clearly that Russia is more than happy with Finnish neutrality, which makes your argument equally nonsensical.

But the same thing was true for the Ukraine, until suddenly it wasn't. Russia is a great neighbor, until they're not.

 

[Tigerace117]

But the same thing was true for the Ukraine, until suddenly it wasn't. Russia is a great neighbor, until they're not.

And, as I pointed out repeatedly, Finland’s situation isn’t even remotely comparable to Ukraine’s.

And as for the latter, the same could be said about America’s interactions with Latin America. Does that mean they should all ally with China?

 

[Ginger Ale]

By that logic Cuba should ask for the nukes back tomorrow(hell, American aggression towards Cuba is WAY more recent than the Winter War).

oh, and btw, the last fifty years or so shows quite clearly that Russia is more than happy with Finnish neutrality, which makes your argument equally nonsensical.

This isn't about the United States, it's about Finland and Russia, whom is trying to obliterate Ukraine. Why is Russia in Ukraine?

 

[Tigerace117]

This isn't about the United States, it's about Finland and Russia, whom is trying to obliterate Ukraine. Why is Russia in Ukraine?

That’s like saying Mexico should ally with China because America invaded Afghanistan.

Nothing happens in a vacuum. A lot of people in the Third World haven’t forgotten Iraq.

 

[bomberfox]

…..you mean like when Finland decided to jump on board with Barbarossa and wound up having to beg Stalin for mercy because the next Soviet offensive would have ended in Helsinki?

Because that was Russia’s most recent “performance in Finland”.

The first time Russia tried to invade Finland they indeed got their asses kicked. Stalin was still reeling from being stood up by Trotsky.

 

[Tigerace117]

The first time Russia tried to invade Finland they indeed got their asses kicked. Stalin was still reeling from being stood up by Trotsky.

Yes, but A) that was well over seventy years ago at this point and B) they still won....both times they fought the Finns.

 

[Ginger Ale]

That’s like saying Mexico should ally with China because America invaded Afghanistan.

Nothing happens in a vacuum. A lot of people in the Third World haven’t forgotten Iraq.

Doesn't matter, we aren't talking about Iraq.

So, you either have an argument on the current topic, or you don't and you need to say, "well you did that, and this."

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Back to topic...we ....go....

 

[Tigerace117]

Doesn't matter, we aren't talking about Iraq.

So, you either have an argument on the current topic, or you don't and you need to say, "well you did that, and this."

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Back to topic...we ....go....

Doesn’t matter, facts don’t go away just because they are inconvenient.

It’s not my fault you don’t like that that “logic” applies just as much to the US as Russia.

But hey, at least we are still as good at forgiving ourselves as ever

 

[bomberfox]

Roughly 1 percent of Finland’s populace is ethnic Russian. It’s situation isn’t even remotely comparable to Ukraine, especially since neutralization of Finland in the first place was a Russian political objective and one bitterly resented by the West.

Finlandization - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The percentage of ethnic Russians doesnt really give Putin much excuse either but here we are. Russia has always foolishly thought Ukraine was Russia. I mean **** Russian leaders have been as pig ignorant as Litwin as to the history of Ukraine for centuries.

 

[Tigerace117]

The percentage of ethnic Russians doesnt really give Putin much excuse either but here we are. Russia has always foolishly thought Ukraine was Russia. I mean **** Russian leaders have been as pig ignorant as Litwin as to the history of Ukraine for centuries.

True, but, again, that’s one of the criteria the Russians use in determining their objectives.

To be fair, it was a Ukrainian who inadvertently created the Crimea mess way back in 1954, but the Romanovs were hardly better stewards.

 

[bomberfox]

Historically speaking the US annexed over half of Mexico, conducted multiple “punitive” campaigns across the Mexican border, allowed law enforcement to likewise ignore the border and occasionally commit outright atrocities against Mexican citizens, and engaged in fearmongering over Mexican citizens “invading” the US, with the idea of fortifying the border being a popular one amongst numerous Americans.

Gee, once again, by your logic Mexico should ally with China tomorrow since you never know what the US might decide to do next

They did go for alliances in those days just as other countries are seeking alliances with NATO.

 

[Tigerace117]

They did go for alliances in those days just as other countries are seeking alliances with NATO.

We almost started World War Three over Cuba’s alliance with the USSR. We were literally one itchy trigger finger of a Russian submarine officer away from global thermonuclear war.

 

[bomberfox]

True, but, again, that’s one of the criteria the Russians use in determining their objectives.

To be fair, it was a Ukrainian who inadvertently created the Crimea mess way back in 1954, but the Romanovs were hardly better stewards.

Yeah its pretty much mirror image to Litwin’s understanding of history which is totally lolzworthy

Russian leaders: “Ukraine is Russia bcuz Kievan-Rus”
Litwin: “Russia is the muscovite golden horde!”

 

[Tigerace117]

Yeah its pretty much mirror image to Litwin’s understanding of history which is totally lolzworthy

Russian leaders: “Ukraine is Russia bcuz Kievan-Rus”
Litwin: “Russia is the muscovite golden horde!”

I still find Litwin’s supposed rage over Bucha absurd. Like, what did he think the SS thugs he constantly praises were doing all over the Eastern Front?

 

[bomberfox]

You literally said that if they don’t join NATO “they’ll be the next Ukraine”. That’s blatant fearmongering.

The US has invaded its neighbors literally dozens of times throughout its history, which makes your premise rather silly.

Ah, and now we get even further into the fearmongering. “If Finland doesn’t join NATO it’s a betrayal” my ass. The last fifty plus years of geopolitical strategy shows that Russia is quite happy with Finnish neutrality.

Russia also tried to invade Finland unprovoked.

 

[Tigerace117]

Uhhh no. Russia got their asses handed to them quite handily the first time before Barbarosa was in the planning stages.

But it was the Finns who surrendered, and handed over what Russia wanted. That’s why they agreed to join Barbarossa in the first place.

 

[bomberfox]

But it was the Finns who surrendered, and handed over what Russia wanted. That’s why they agreed to join Barbarossa in the first place.

That was my mistake. I was thinking Russia gave up during the winter war’s first incredibly embarrassing setback for Russia.

 

[Ginger Ale]

Doesn’t matter, facts don’t go away just because they are inconvenient.

It’s not my fault you don’t like that that “logic” applies just as much to the US as Russia.

But hey, at least we are still as good at forgiving ourselves as ever

The variables for both are enormous, and deflecting to what others did is a terrible debate tactic. Whether you forgive America or not doesn't erase the facts of today, nor the reality that Russia is invading a country because it can.

Finland needs to take care of itself, regardless of what you think of the world.

 

[lwf]

Yes, because they aren’t in Ukraine’s situation, and Russia has nothing to attack them over.

You don't know that they have nothing for Russia to attack them over. Nor do you know that Russia will not find something to attack them over in the future. Russia is not predictable.

 

[choiceone]

Only if one is under the impression that Russia is the Borg and seeks to conquer every nation it can

While it's under Putin, that may be the case at least in Europe (oh, and Kazakhstan).

 

[choiceone]

Which doesn’t change the fact that it invaded them, often for reasons which turn out to be flimsy at best, and I rather doubt it matters to the Iraqis that we were invading them because we meant well

Once again, Russia’s criteria for territorial gain are “large amounts of natural resources and a large Russian speaking/ ethnic Russian populace. The Russians have large amounts of the same minerals that can be found in Finland in Karelia, which they own. The latter flat out doesn’t exist in Finland.

There isn’t a reason for an invasion. Period. Pretending otherwise is fearmongering, nothing but.

I don't agree with that. There is a sort of linguo-nationalist thing going on with Putin. To be sure, Finland and Estonia speak Finno-Ugric languages, not Slavic ones, but their languages connect to other languages in the larger Russian domain. Putin seems to see Russians not just as Slavs related to all others, but as Russians with particular language/tradition ties differentiating them from Western Europe.

Plus, he wants all the territory of the USSR back together and ties with all the places as before in Eastern Europe - and Finland at least fits that model asymmetrically.

 

[HangLow]

Ireland has been talking about joining NATO as well.

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[HangLow]

Finland Races Toward Likely NATO Membership as Putin's Warnings Backfire

As with Ukraine and Georgia, Russia wants the power to dictate to sovereign nations what they can and can't do.
Moscow warns Finland and Sweden that they can become the next Ukraine if they request NATO membership.

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[Antiwar]

Every nation should be automatically enrolled in NATO, then there would be no nation left to threaten with the US government's nuclear arsenal, and nuclear weapons will be abolished.

Probably not, but the US government and Russian government are probably too stupid to abolish nuclear weapons just because mutually assured stupidity is insanely stupid.

Well, it's probably more the US government's stupid agenda to dominate what's left of the planet that's the real reason.