Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by law

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Inconsistent with who's account? Not the girlfriend's, which it is consistent with. So who's?
Please link to it.
Whether or not he has the most reason to lie is a different subject. Would you like to debate it?

Her account is not consistent with his and never will be, no matter how hard you stomp to the contrary.

Zimmerman claims he got out of his SUV to see a street sign and was attacked from behind as he headed back to his car. The confrontation occurred nowhere near the street and according to the witness, began with the two talking to each other, not one attacking the other from behind.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I beg to differ, noob to this board that I am.

City Manager Offers Misleading Justification for Not Arresting Travyon Martin’s Shooter

BTW, the city manager only offered the police chief's explanation. He neither authored nor approved of the chief's response.

This is all about guns laws, actually.

force ≠ firearm

The use of firearms may be the use of force, but not all use of force is a firearm.

This is about self defense. Self defense is a subject that is linked to guns, but it's not the same thing.

imho

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

What he said, and what you think he said has been two different things from the beginning.
So how about you break it down point by point with the actual audio and time references.
That way we can see for ourselves if what you have provided is true.
Otherwise you are just blowing more smoke.

Reason for edit.

Grammar.

Read it for yourself ...

Zimmerman said he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on when Trayvon attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck, police said. He said he feared for his life and fired the semiautomatic handgun he was licensed to carry because he feared for his life.

Grand jury to probe Trayvon Martin killing - Trayvon Martin - MiamiHerald.com

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

For that community, the law enforcement, court system and government is run essentially entirely by whites and African-Americans. The tiny Latino community has no representation, with George (whor-hey') Zimmerman being Latino.

Any legit defense attorney could have a field day with this Zimmerman fully cooperated. He was interviewed at the time. He fully cooperated. All evidence could have been gathers, taken and preserved. But the white and African-American law police, prosecutor and government instead decided to not take, not preserve or destroy virtually all evidence that had the ability to prove Zimmerman not-guilty. When this pointed out by the national media, virtually all those leaders resigned in disgrace.

Now, African American leaders - who control local government - are demanding the Latino be arrested - after that same government/law enforcement had destroyed the evidence for the defense of him.

In that city Zimmerman, not Martin, is the minority. He is the one with no representation within the law enforcement, criminal justice system or government of the community. Because of the race-protests against Zimmerman, NO trial could be conducted there. It would have to be sent elsewhere.

It will be the DEFENSE, not the prosecution, that benefits from the prosecutor's office and police not gathering evidence. And it is Zimmerman, not Martin, who is in the minority role. The Defense will claim no evidence was taken because the police didn't give a damn about Zimmerman's right to fair trial so they figured they would need no evidence to get a conviction in their white/African-American against the poor minority Latino.

It was only national media that ruined their agenda by forcing the case to be moved to where a fair trial could be conducted. When the white and African-American police and prosecutor people who didnt' take or destroyed all the evidence figuring they could just rubber-stamp convict Zimmerman, they all quit in disgrace.

IF most of the forensic evidence really isn't there, really wasn't taken, and is nonabe recoverable, there is no legitimately winnable case.

This could be a community where the police and court is SOO corrupt and people so poor as to always only get a lawyer appointed by the court who only really does what the police and court want, that the REALLY reason the police and prosecutor didn't take evidence is that they knew they can convict - or not - anyone they wanted to and no evidence was needed. Because both Martin and Zimmerman appear poor nobodies, they just didn't have a reason to give a damn one way or the other.

Does that sound about right? The police and prosecutors office so corrupt they've never really needed evidence much for criminal cases either way. I think that is what is proving to be the real story. And the reason they didn't arrest Zimmerman really is because they didn't give a damn about poor Martin OR poor Zimmerman nor had any reason to need evidence for how their police/ prosecution / court / appointed lawyer system worked.

I don't think it will surprise you for me to tell you that many, many, many small Florida cities' judicial and criminal systems aren't very "formal" and law tends to be whatever the powers that be say it is. Its mostly that way around here too and I've noted that before on other threads. I think that is becoming the real story. If so, that is almost the heritage of much of this state.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

How the **** do you get from ....

I see you are still trying to spin what happened. I am defending the use of correct information which you do not seem to want to do.

... to ...

Trayvon is dead because he decided to confront Zimmerman from behind.

... when Zimmerman said he was attacked from behind, not confronted from behind?

You're the one spinning yourself in circles.

And just so ya know ... asking someone why they're following you is not an attack.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Holy ****!! Tell me you didn't just say that?????

• "It appears Zimmerman shot Martin in the chest while Martin was kicking Zimmerman and possible trying to take the gun - and as Zimmerman yelled for someone to help him." ~ joko104

• "Martin, a champion football player who lifts weights, became enraged, rushed Zimmerman slugging him in the face, knocking Zimmerman to the ground. Martin then did a field goal kick to Zimmerman's head." ~ joko104

You're the one asserting facts unknown.

Are you offended at yourself?

I already explained the distinction of what constitutes "facts' for the prosecution versus "facts' for the defense under Florida law. A "fact" for the defense is anything that might possibly have happened that evidence doesn't disprove.

 

[Thunder]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

...Trayvon is dead because he decided to confront Zimmerman from behind....

and yet, Zimmerman has grass stains on his back.

hows that work?

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I already explained the distinction of what constitutes "facts' for the prosecution versus "facts' for the defense under Florida law. A "fact" for the defense is anything that might possibly have happened that evidence doesn't disprove.

First of all, Zimmerman is not [yet] a defendent, but more to the point, he has not asserted that he was kicked in the head so it's not a fact nor will it ever be a fact. In fact, if Zimmerman makes that claim now after not making it earlier, it will be an obvious lie.

You made that up from whole cloth and then had the audacity to accuse others of "asserting facts unknown."

Now you're just projecting.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

We have two prior instances where Zimmerman put his hands on people, one of them a COP, one a domestic abuse case that led to a restraining order.

That's pretty much what I suspect happened. "They always get away" also lends credence to the idea he tried to physically restrain Martin.

And a big stranger that's been following me GRABBING me would freak me the **** out.

Pretty sure that actually grabbing somebody triggers self defense too, making Martin punching Zim perfectly legal.

The evidence doesn't point to more than a punch in the face followed by a fall backwards onto the sidewalk.

I wonder if LE even bothered to determine if Zim had any other injuries? Powder burns on Martin?

Its LEs willingness to accept simple statements that bothers me.

There should have been a wealth of forensic evidence. But even though the 911 operator stated Zim sounded intoxicated, no toxicology was performed on Zimmerman. Isn't carrying while under the influence illegal?

I've "put my hands (adversarially) on another man in a tense situation more times than I could possibly remember in response to provocative words or just to take control of a situation that seemed escalating to violence. Until my more recent more civilized life in a more civilized setting, I was well known for that. I actually do believe there are words and confrontations that justify violence, though generally the law disagrees. That starting point does not define then who - if anyone - is responsible for someone dead at the end of that scenario.

 

[Thunder]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I've "put my hands (adversarially) on another man in a tense situation more times than I could possibly remember in response to provocative words or just to take control of a situation that seemed escalating to violence....

have you ever put your hands on a police officer and charged with battery?

ever had a restaining order put on you by an ex-girlfriend?

ever attack an ex-girlfriend?

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

My memory may be wrong and I don't care to dig down links again, but now that I think about it, I don't remember reading in the police report of the two officers who spoke to Zimmerman even stating in that report they gave him a Miranda Warning - and I just heard on TV they interviewed him for 2 hours - so not exactly "spontaneous."

If so, it is likely that whether or not anything Zimmerman told the police is admissible or not might depend singularly on whether the Defense wants the jury to hear it.

I really think the real story that is being learned is that the police saw BOTH Zimmerman and Martin as poor, irrelevant people so didn't really give a damn much either way.

 

[Free For All]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

have you ever put your hands on a police officer and charged with battery?

ever had a restaining order put on you by an ex-girlfriend?

ever attack an ex-girlfriend?

Yeah... :doh

She was being difficult. You know women need to learn their place in life.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

have you ever put your hands on a police officer and charged with battery?

ever had a restaining order put on you by an ex-girlfriend?

ever attack an ex-girlfriend?

Unless a defendant takes the stand, they can't even mention felony convictions.

Regardless, they can't mention even Zimmerman did testify of 1.) the battery is it was ultimately dismissed. 2.) the restraining order if out of a civil court, as that is a lesser measure nor stemmed from a trial or 3.) since the "attack on a girlfriend" doesn't involve domestic violence nor was there ever a conviction on it, that couldn't be mentioned either - any of those 3 even if Zimmerman did take the stand In terms of a criminal trial, those don't exist.

I think any criminal defense or prosecution lawyer would confirm that.

In my prior life past I was detained, questioned and arrested many times for various assault and aggravated assault charges (not regarding women or police). No convictions. So if I were ever on trial for a criminal charge, not one of those could even be mentioned.

There are legitimate restraining orders certainly. But judges tend to hand those out like candy to women in divorce cases and it is a common tactic of women's attorneys in divorces. Those aren't criminal charges, there is no jury trial, and accordingly they are neither criminal convictions nor admissible in any criminal case.

 

[Free For All]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I think joko104 hates black people.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

My memory may be wrong and I don't care to dig down links again, but now that I think about it, I don't remember reading in the police report of the two officers who spoke to Zimmerman even stating in that report they gave him a Miranda Warning - and I just heard on TV they interviewed him for 2 hours - so not exactly "spontaneous."

If so, it is likely that whether or not anything Zimmerman told the police is admissible or not might depend singularly on whether the Defense wants the jury to hear it.

I really think the real story that is being learned is that the police saw BOTH Zimmerman and Martin as poor, irrelevant people so didn't really give a damn much either way.

Doesn't that only apply to those in policy custody?

 

[Excon]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Now you're changing what you said. Earlier, you said he stopped following Trayvon when the 911 dispatcher told him, "you don't have to do [follow him] that." Now you're saying he didn't break off his pursuit because of that.

<sarcasm>You're as consistant as Zimmerman's account</sarcasm>

I have not changed what I said at all.
It is your understanding of what you are reading that is obviously at fault here.

Absolutely FALSE. Martin is dead because a predator killed him to bolster his wannabe ego.

Your assertion is false.
In stead of letting Zimmerman return to his truck Trayvon decided to confront him.
Trayvon is dead because he decided to confront Zimmerman from behind.

Where do you come up with your information? Can i get some of the sources you get your "facts" from.

If you have read this topic, they are all available within.

Her account is not consistent with his and never will be, no matter how hard you stomp to the contrary.

Zimmerman claims he got out of his SUV to see a street sign and was attacked from behind as he headed back to his car. The confrontation occurred nowhere near the street and according to the witness, began with the two talking to each other, not one attacking the other from behind.

Yes. His statement is consistent with hers. No mater how much you want to deny it, it still is.

 

[Excon]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Read it for yourself ...

Zimmerman said he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on when Trayvon attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck, police said. He said he feared for his life and fired the semiautomatic handgun he was licensed to carry because he feared for his life.

Grand jury to probe Trayvon Martin killing - Trayvon Martin - MiamiHerald.com

You realize that you did not quote any statement of Zimmerman's, right?
You also realize that you only quoted a reporter's version of what happened, right?


Sorry, but you have to do better than that.

While we are waiting for you to do better than that, here are a couple of quotes from the Police Chief.
In the mean time I think I will go to bed.
Maybe you can one-up them with actual audio from Zimmerman like I originally asked you for.
Actual linked to quotes from Zimmerman are also acceptable.

Lee, the police chief, said in a statement that the police dispatcher's "suggestion" to Zimmerman that he did not need to follow Martin "is not a lawful order that Mr. Zimmermann would be required to follow."

"Mr. Zimmerman's statement was that he had lost sight of Trayvon and was returning to his truck to meet the police officer when he says he was attacked by Trayvon," Lee said.
'Stand Your Ground Law' at center of Fla. shooting - Yahoo! News

How the **** do you get from ....

... when Zimmerman said he was attacked from behind, not confronted from behind?

You're the one spinning yourself in circles.

And just so ya know ... asking someone why they're following you is not an attack.

Seriously?
You claiming I am trying to spin something is ludicrous.
I don't know if you are purposely being this way or not, but it appears as though you are having problems understanding what you are reading.

I offered an explanation of what could have happened and how Zimmerman may have seen things. You know - an opinion.
And you are trying to call me on it? lol

Let me again provide it.

Martin's confronting him with a question and his replying and then a scuffle ensuing could have came from behind and happened quickly enough to be interpreted and relayed as an attack from behind.

So yes. A confrontation coming from behind with an ensuing scuffle could most certainly be interpreted as an attack from behind.
Which is and would be consistent with the girls friends statement as well as Zimmerman's.

 

[mogur15]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

force ≠ firearm

The use of firearms may be the use of force, but not all use of force is a firearm.

This is about self defense. Self defense is a subject that is linked to guns, but it's not the same thing.

imho

You are absolutely correct. Unfortunately, my original post had a link in it which needed to be reviewed by a mod since I have minimal postings. So I re-posted it without the link and instantly realized my mistake that you pointed out. So, I immediately edited my post to say that it wasn't specifically about gun possession laws, but statutes about deadly force issues are most often applied to the use of firearms. And the 'stand your ground' statutes were specifically used by police chief Lee to justify releasing Zimmerman immediately. Unfortunately again, that post was then eventually replaced with my original post when a mod finally cleared the link in it.

Ok, sorry about my original error and thanks for pointing it out so I could offer this lame and boring explanation. Grin.

 

[j-mac]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I am aware of that. Which has nothing to do with the correct wording of what was actually said or any authority or lack of, that went along with it.



Yes I have, and most recently I said the following.



I can't believe I have to resort to the following so we are all on the same wavelength.



Zimmerman found that Trayvon was "... just walking around looking at all the houses.".
For someone working in the capacity of NW, this observation is suspicious behavior.
This was suspicious enough to Zimmerman to call in. And was enough for the police to respond.

Then Trayvon compounded the initial suspicion with more suspicious actions.
After being observed, and according to his girlfriend's statement he placed his hood on.
Why does someone do that? To hide their face?
To me that is additional suspicious behavior.
And then running away. More suspicious behavior.

For someone working in the capacity of NW, these observation are suspicious.

Now if I wasn't acting in the capacity of NW I probably wouldn't think much of these actions or of the possibility that someone may be casing the neighborhood.

But Zimmerman thought his actions suspicious and call them in, and the police dispatched a car.
That is what maters here.

I am not saying that Zimmerman didn't do what he thought was correct as NW by calling it in, but as someone who knows, and is friends with local law enforcement here in SC, and as one who holds a CWP, at the point where you make the call you, I would think observe, not confront, and let the police do their job.

Second, what exactly is the suspicious behavior again? Looking at houses as he walks out of the neighborhood? Wow, I guess he should have stared at the ground as he walked briskly out eh? God forbid that someone should pay attention to their surroundings...

Third, all reports from the girlfriend are that he had just walked her home, and the man Zimmerman has a history of repeated calls to 911, some reports over 50 of them that panned to be nothing....

And lastly, can you show in the SYG law where it says you can pursue someone, start the confrontation, then shoot them? We have SYG laws here, and I can assure you that you can NOT do that.

j-mac

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Doesn't that only apply to those in policy custody?

No.
.................

 

[Crosscheck]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Your assertion is false.
In stead of letting Zimmerman return to his truck Trayvon decided to confront him.
Trayvon is dead because he decided to confront Zimmerman from behind.

Well that changes everything, we had no idea you were there on the street during the confrontation.
It sounds as if you have been watching too many cop shows on tv.

You need to look at the facts instead of relying totally on what a perp says. It is not unusual for a defendent who has just killed somebody to change the story so that he is the victim.

Zimmerman has already been established to have a violent history with a paranoia habit of multiple calls to 911.
Martin was unharmed and no proof of any wrongdoing and no criminal history.

The only question is what was the police dept thinking. Did they even confiscate the pistol?

 

[MaggieD]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

My memory may be wrong and I don't care to dig down links again, but now that I think about it, I don't remember reading in the police report of the two officers who spoke to Zimmerman even stating in that report they gave him a Miranda Warning - and I just heard on TV they interviewed him for 2 hours - so not exactly "spontaneous."

If so, it is likely that whether or not anything Zimmerman told the police is admissible or not might depend singularly on whether the Defense wants the jury to hear it.

I really think the real story that is being learned is that the police saw BOTH Zimmerman and Martin as poor, irrelevant people so didn't really give a damn much either way.

When and if one needs to be Mirandized depends on specific circumstances. Asking someone, "What happened?" does not mean one has to be read their rights. Coming to the police station voluntarily for questioning does not mean one has to be read their rights. Miranda Rights do not have to be read unless one is taken into police custody or would reasonably believe he couldn't leave and was being detained. Coppers are experts on when to Mirandize. "We'd like you to come down to the station so we can figure out what happened here," doesn't trigger having to read someone their rights. Where's Caine when we need him? Ha!

 

[TheNextEra]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Your assertion is false.
In stead of letting Zimmerman return to his truck Trayvon decided to confront him.
Trayvon is dead because he decided to confront Zimmerman from behind.

Sorry but we don't know that as fact, unless you were PERSONALLY there to witness it.

All we know is Zimmerman got out, something happened, and Trayvon was shot by Zimmerman.

The horrifying thing is many in the public have already pronounced Zimmerman guilty and probably with a death sentence which is why he had to move out of his house.

I'm not saying Zimmerman isn't guilty, but that is for our legal system to decide.

 

[Thunder]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

...There are legitimate restraining orders certainly. But judges tend to hand those out like candy to women in divorce cases and it is a common tactic of women's attorneys in divorces. Those aren't criminal charges, there is no jury trial, and accordingly they are neither criminal convictions nor admissible in any criminal case.

well, isn't that just wonderful for Mr. Zimmerman.

 

[MaggieD]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Sorry but we don't know that as fact, unless you were PERSONALLY there to witness it.

All we know is Zimmerman got out, something happened, and Trayvon was shot by Zimmerman.

The horrifying thing is many in the public have already pronounced Zimmerman guilty and probably with a death sentence which is why he had to move out of his house.

I'm not saying Zimmerman isn't guilty, but that is for our legal system to decide.

I don't think people are clamoring that he's guilty. I think they're clamoring for a full investigation. Which is exactly what's now happening. And without the general public having gotten up in arms over this event, there'd be no further investigation. There are conflicts in testimony...a witness has come forward and said she told an interviewing officer that she heard the young man scream for help; the LEO said, "That was Zimmerman," and it was so entered in his report. That alone is enough to cause WTF's all over the place.

This is all going to hinge on what this guy said at the time because unless witness testimony contradicts his version of events, it's a done deal.

If this had happened in an up-scale community to a doctor's son, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. And that's the truth.