Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by law

[rocket88]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

But Zimmerman thought his actions suspicious and call them in, and the police dispatched a car.
That is what maters here.

No, what matters here is that he took it upon himself to play vigilante and a kid is dead as a result.

 

[TheNextEra]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I don't think people are clamoring that he's guilty.

He's received death threats and has had to move out of his home because of it. If that isn't saying he is guilty, then what would YOU call it?

 

[Thorgasm]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

He's receieved death threats and has had to move out of his home because of it. If that isn't saying he is guilty, then what would YOU call it?

People could be disregarding whether he is guilty or not in a legal sense. He may have been acting within the law, but in the end, it was an unnecessary killing.

 

[rocket88]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Sorry but we don't know that as fact, unless you were PERSONALLY there to witness it.

All we know is Zimmerman got out, something happened, and Trayvon was shot by Zimmerman.

The horrifying thing is many in the public have already pronounced Zimmerman guilty and probably with a death sentence which is why he had to move out of his house.

I'm not saying Zimmerman isn't guilty, but that is for our legal system to decide.

That's all I'm saying should happen. Put it into the legal system where his guilt or lack thereof can be determined. Right now you've got one guy who wanted to play police, and the police who want to play lawyer.

 

[TheNextEra]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

No, what matters here is that he took it upon himself to play vigilante and a kid is dead as a result.

What is not proven is whether or not the kid caused the scuffle which forced Zimmerman to defend himself. It wasn't illegal for Zimmerman to get out of his car. If the kid started the scuffle and Zimmerman defended himself, then the kid would be in the wrong.

Again, not saying Zimmerman is innocent just that we don't know exactly for sure what happened and who started the scuffle.

 

[TheNextEra]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

People could be disregarding whether he is guilty or not in a legal sense. He may have been acting within the law, but in the end, it was an unnecessary killing.

If the kid started the scuffle (i.e. attacked Zimmerman first), Zimmerman has every right to defend himself with Lethal force.

Whether or not you like that law, it is the law.

 

[MaggieD]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Things that make one go, "Hmmmmmm....." :

The portrayal of George Zimmerman in the media, as well as the series of events that led to the tragic shooting, are false and extremely misleading," his father, a retired magistrate judge, wrote in a letter published in the Orlando Sentinel. "Unfortunately, some individuals and organizations have used this tragedy to further their own causes and agendas."

 

[Thorgasm]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

If the kid started the scuffle (i.e. attacked Zimmerman first), Zimmerman has every right to defend himself with Lethal force.

Whether or not you like that law, it is the law.

If Zimmerman would have let the police do their job, Martin would most likely be alive.

 

[rocket88]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Things that make one go, "Hmmmmmm....." :

'Twas always thus, and always thus shall be.

 

[TheNextEra]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

If Zimmerman would have let the police do their job, Martin would most likely be alive.

That's true. However, that could be said about most things for example If the woman didn't go down that alley, she wouldn't have been killed.

However, we live in a country where we have freedoms.

LEGALLY, if the kid attacked Zimmerman first, Zimmerman LEGALLY was in the right to use lethal force.

I don't like Zimmerman as a person and I don't like the fact Zimmerman went looking for this kid. However, just because I don't like it, doesn't necessarily make Zimmerman LEGALLY wrong for it.

If I go into a dark alley a gun (assuming I have a permit to carry and I am in Zimmerman's state), and some gang banger tries to attack me and kill me, I would have a right in that state to kill the gangbanger. Now, if I didn't go into that alley, I wouldn't have been attacked and the gangbanger would still be alive. LEGALLY I wouldn't be in the wrong.

 

[TheNextEra]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

If Zimmerman would have let the police do their job, Martin would most likely be alive.

Let's just assume the kid attacked Zimmerman first for this example.

If the kid didn't attack Zimmerman, the kid most likely would be alive. It works both ways.

The legal ramification right now would be knowing if Zimmerman started the scuffle or the kid did. That's the legal problem right now that would determine guilt or not LEGALLY.

EDIT: Morally, I think what Zimmerman did was wrong. I don't think he should have gone looking for the kid. However, we are talking about LEGALLY whether he was in the wrong. What I morally think is wrong, has no bearing on whether LEGALLY he was in the wrong.

 

[MaggieD]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Let's just assume the kid attacked Zimmerman first for this example.

If the kid didn't attack Zimmerman, the kid most likely would be alive. It works both ways.

The legal ramification right now would be knowing if Zimmerman started the scuffle or the kid did. That's the legal problem right now that would determine guilt or not LEGALLY.

There is no doubt in my mind that Zimmerman "started it" -- when he elected to leave his car and follow this kid on foot. Whatever happened then's on him. He was STALKING him!

 

[Thorgasm]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Let's just assume the kid attacked Zimmerman first for this example.

If the kid didn't attack Zimmerman, the kid most likely would be alive. It works both ways.

The legal ramification right now would be knowing if Zimmerman started the scuffle or the kid did. That's the legal problem right now that would determine guilt or not LEGALLY.

EDIT: Morally, I think what Zimmerman did was wrong. I don't think he should have gone looking for the kid. However, we are talking about LEGALLY whether he was in the wrong. What I morally think is wrong, has no bearing on whether LEGALLY he was in the wrong.

Why doesn't the SYG law apply to Martin?

 

[TheNextEra]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

There is no doubt in my mind that Zimmerman "started it" -- when he elected to leave his car and follow this kid on foot. Whatever happened then's on him. He was STALKING him!

Sorry, but getting out of a car doesn't start something. Just because you are following me doesn't give me the right to shoot you LEGALLY.

And if Martin felt he was being stalked he could have called the police.

 

[TheNextEra]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Why doesn't the SYG law apply to Martin?

It does and if Zimmerman started the scuffle and if Martin would have shot him becuase of it, Martin would be in the right LEGALLY.

However, going up to someone to talk to them doesn't give someone the right to shoot them.

 

[Thunder]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Why doesn't the SYG law apply to Martin?

some folks seem to think that SYG doesn't apply to young black men wearing a hoody, walking around an upper middle-class area.

 

[Crosscheck]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I don't think people are clamoring that he's guilty. I think they're clamoring for a full investigation. Which is exactly what's now happening. And without the general public having gotten up in arms over this event, there'd be no further investigation. There are conflicts in testimony...a witness has come forward and said she told an interviewing officer that she heard the young man scream for help; the LEO said, "That was Zimmerman," and it was so entered in his report. That alone is enough to cause WTF's all over the place.

This is all going to hinge on what this guy said at the time because unless witness testimony contradicts his version of events, it's a done deal.

If this had happened in an up-scale community to a doctor's son, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. And that's the truth.

You are correct that if the public hadn't gotten up in arms the investigation would have ended there on the street that night. That police dept is over its head in this.
It is mostly likely it will take the feds to come in and provide justice. Zimmerman is either a predator or someone with serious mental problems. One can just trace his past history and could see this was going to evolve into someone getting killed.

With his paranoia and reports of death threat against him there could be a real chance of him killing someone else. What happens if he thinks somebody walking by his house glances over at it and he thinks they are out for him? If he were to kill again then you haven't seen anything like the anger that would spread across this country.

 

[Thunder]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

You are correct that if the public hadn't gotten up in arms the investigation would have ended there on the street that night. That police dept is over its head in this.
It is mostly likely it will take the feds to come in and provide justice. Zimmerman is either a predator or someone with serious mental problems. One can just trace his past history and could see this was going to evolve into someone getting killed.

With his paranoia and reports of death threat against him there could be a real chance of him killing someone else. What happens if he thinks somebody walking by his house glances over at it and he thinks they are out for him? If he were to kill again then you haven't seen anything like the anger that would spread across this country.

he likely thinks all black kids wearing a hoody, are "assholes" and need to feel the sting of justice.

 

[TheNextEra]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

some folks seem to think that SYG doesn't apply to young black men wearing a hoody, walking around an upper middle-class area.

Keep in mind, the only way SYG law LEGALLY applies to Zimmerman is if Martin attacked Zimmerman first.

 

[Thorgasm]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

It does and if Zimmerman started the scuffle and if Martin would have shot him becuase of it, Martin would be in the right LEGALLY.

However, going up to someone to talk to them doesn't give someone the right to shoot them.

If someone is talking to you in a threatening manner, you have the right to defend yourself. Zimmerman's 911 call indicates that Zimmerman was not asking Martin if he lived in the neighborhood or if he was lost. It most likely came across as "Hey, punk, what are you doing in my neighborhood?!?" I would imagine his body language was intimidating and he may have been in his face when asking. If a stranger approaches me that way, I would certainly feel threatened. It is doubtful that Zimmerman was just asking an honest question.

 

[MaggieD]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Sorry, but getting out of a car doesn't start something. Just because you are following me doesn't give me the right to shoot you LEGALLY.

And if Martin felt he was being stalked he could have called the police.

Shoulda' woulda' coulda' goes both ways. Zimmerman shoulda' stayed in his damned car. And I beg to differ that it doesn't give me the right to shoot you. Under SYG laws, it most assuredly does. I don't have to wait for a 300# guy to punch me in the face before I defend myself. And Zimmerman? Was acting like a copper...without a uniform...without a cop car...with a gun.

 

[MaggieD]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Keep in mind, the only way SYG law LEGALLY applies to Zimmerman is if Martin attacked Zimmerman first.

No, the SYG law doesn't say you have to wait to be attacked. If you reasonably fear for your life? That's enough. Who would "reasonably fear for their life" in this situation? The guy with the gun? Or the guy who's being followed -- and then accosted by a strange man?

 

[Thunder]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

No, the SYG law doesn't say you have to wait to be attacked. If you reasonably fear for your life? That's enough. Who would "reasonably fear for their life" in this situation? The guy with the gun? Or the guy who's being followed -- and then accosted by a strange man?

if I was a 17 year-old black kid, walking around a mostly white middle-class neighborhood in the middle of the night and rain, and some fat white man was following me in his car, and then on foot, I would definitely fear for my life.

In Florida? Hell yes...I would fear for my life.

 

[TheNextEra]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

If someone is talking to you in a threatening manner, you have the right to defend yourself.

So if I come up to you and say I want to punch you, you think your LEGALLY in the right to just shoot me? Sorry, that's not the way SYG law works.

Zimmerman's 911 call indicates that Zimmerman was not asking Martin if he lived in the neighborhood or if he was lost. It most likely came across as "Hey, punk, what are you doing in my neighborhood?!?" I would imagine his body language was intimidating and he may have been in his face when asking. If a stranger approaches me that way, I would certainly feel threatened. It is doubtful that Zimmerman was just asking an honest question.

You say words like "doubtful" and "most likely". You say these things because you don't know for sure either.

That's what I'm getting at, we don't know for sure whether Zimmerman was in the right LEGALLY or not.

We can make assumptions all day long, but in the end we don't know for sure. That is what the justice system is for.

This is why I blame the cops, because they should have brought him in for more questioning.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

From Miami Herald:

The answer may lie in police records, which show that 50 suspicious-person reports were called in to police in the past year at Twin Lakes. There were eight burglaries, nine thefts and one other shooting in the year prior to Trayvon’s death.

In all, police had been called to the 260-unit complex 402 times from Jan. 1, 2011 to Feb. 26, 2012.

“He (Zimmerman) once caught a thief and an arrest was made,” said Cynthia Wibker, secretary of the homeowners association. “He helped solve a lot of crimes.”

Zimmerman told neighbors about stolen laptops and unsavory characters. Ibrahim Rashada, a 25-year-old African American who works at U.S. Airways, once spotted young men cutting through the woods entering the complex on foot, and later learned items were stolen those days.

“It’s a gated community, but you can walk in and steal whatever you want,” Rashada’s wife, Quianna, said.

They discussed the topic with Zimmerman when the watch captain knocked on their door late last year. Zimmerman seemed friendly, helpful, and a “pretty cool dude,” Ibrahim Rashada said.

Trayvon Martin was on top of Zimmerman punching him when he was shot.

“He came by here and talked about carrying guns and getting my wife more involved with guns,” he said. “He said I should have a weapon and that his wife took classes to learn how to use one.