Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by law

[Crosscheck]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Im not really sure why this case is so hard for people to understand. Wannabe copster decided he was going to play superneighborhoodwatchguy and followed an innocent kid. Called in the crime (of walking down the street-'those' people always get away with that!) and even AFTER the dispatcher told him they didnt need to follow him, he did. Kid got pissed and instead of going straight home or calling the cops himself, he decided to confront the guy. Fight ensued...kid was kicking the guys ass and the guy pulled a weapon he was not supposed to be carrying and shot the kid. End of story.

At the end of the day there are a few dozen things this guy can and should probably be charged with.

Absoulutely correct. The guy was a predator looking for a weaker prey to attack.
The police are to protect the community and they needed to jail him to protect any future victims. He already has a violent history and now he has killed an innocent kid walking down the street.

Zimmerman's lies about the kid acting suspicious and like he was on drugs is just a ploy to cover his ass. What if the kid had intellectual disability or even a physical disability that affected his gait? To many here that would be reason to chase him down and kill him.

 

[Thunder]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

There is zero evidence that Zimmerman is guilty of anything.....

sure there is. you just choose to ignore it.

 

[Thunder]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

...Martin, clearly the superior and many of us see the obviousness of that, didn't know he had brought fist and feet to what became a gun fight. That the old guy might have a gun is one reason 17 year olds shouldn't get too cocky about wanting beating up old guys that are annoying him.

yeah, this kid really was pretty uppity, acting all violent and ****, right?

who does this 17 year old think he is, defending himself and crap?

 

[mogur15]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

People like sharpton are just acting like idiots or hypocrites. If a Black man had used a gun in self-defense against one or more White people, i. e. KKK members, skinheads, etc. there wouldn't be a peep from him.

I couldn't agree with you more that Sharpton is a self-serving clown. But it may be a stretch to call him a hypocrite for not saying that a black man shouldn't defend himself against white racists intent on murder. That implies that in this case, a white man was simply defending himself against a black racist intent on murdering him.

The Black community in Florida needs to wake up and see the big picture--that the existing law in Florida that protects those like Zimmerman protects them as well.

'Stand your ground' laws protect blacks? Tell that to Trayvon Martin's parents. Didn't work out so well for them.

 

[Excon]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Well, You are correct in what the operator says, but keep in mind that they are also in contact to the law enforcement en route to the call. So, as a rule the operator, and the police themselves are always going to follow the road of trouble averted if they can.

I am aware of that. Which has nothing to do with the correct wording of what was actually said or any authority or lack of, that went along with it.

However, you said earlier that the kid was acting suspiciously, tell me, what would that have been?

Yes I have, and most recently I said the following.

The suspicious behavior did exist.
Whether or not you or I think it was or wasn't suspicious doesn't matter.
Because it depends on the perceptions of the one who calls it in.
And as evidenced from the call, it was enough to dispatch a unit.

I can't believe I have to resort to the following so we are all on the same wavelength.

Suspicion
suspicion n
: the act or an instance of suspecting something
: a mental state usually short of belief in which one entertains a notion that something is wrong or that a fact exists without proof or on slight evidence see also reasonable suspicion
sus·pi·cion·less adj
suspicion: Definition of suspicion. Define suspicion

Zimmerman found that Trayvon was "... just walking around looking at all the houses.".
For someone working in the capacity of NW, this observation is suspicious behavior.
This was suspicious enough to Zimmerman to call in. And was enough for the police to respond.

Then Trayvon compounded the initial suspicion with more suspicious actions.
After being observed, and according to his girlfriend's statement he placed his hood on.
Why does someone do that? To hide their face?
To me that is additional suspicious behavior.
And then running away. More suspicious behavior.

For someone working in the capacity of NW, these observation are suspicious.

Now if I wasn't acting in the capacity of NW I probably wouldn't think much of these actions or of the possibility that someone may be casing the neighborhood.

But Zimmerman thought his actions suspicious and call them in, and the police dispatched a car.
That is what maters here.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Right. Which is consistent with the girlfriends statement.

WTF???

Zimmerman's statement was that he was attacked from behind ... the girl's statement was that Trayvon asked Zimmerman why he was following him.

There is no consistancy there.

 

[Thunder]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

why are some folks acting like the SYG laws only support folks who have a gun?

they also defend folks who only have their feet & fists, like Treyvon Martin.

 

[Excon]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

WTF???

Zimmerman's statement was that he was attacked from behind ... the girl's statement was that Trayvon asked Zimmerman why he was following him.

There is no consistancy there.

Zimmerman's statement is consistent with hers because hers does not rule out what he says happened.

The statement made was that he was attacked from behind, not jumped from behind.

Read the girlfriends statement again.
Martin's confronting him with a question and his replying and then a scuffle ensuing could have came from behind and happened quickly enough to be interpreted and relayed as an attack from behind.

So yeah, Zimmerman's statement is consistent with her statement.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Trayvon attacked Zimmerman from behind.

Ummm, there is no evidence of that.

Ummm, yes there is.
Zimmerman's statement is evidence. It is consistent with the other gathered evidence.

Since Zimmerman killed the only witness, he cannot prove his claim, so that is not evidence. And given the girl who heard them engage in conversation said Trayvon asked Zimmerman why he was following him, there was no attack by Trayvon.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Tell me Airborn, how do you get that it was an order as in he "told" him from the following statement?

The 911 operator tells Zimmerman the following: "We don't need you to do that.".
That is not be "told" to do anything.
That is not an order.
It is a suggestion. A suggestion from someone who has no authority over the caller.

So saying he was "told", is just simply wrong.

Now you're typing out of both sides of your keyboard. Earlier in the thread, you said unequivically, Zimmerman cut off the pursuit when the 911 dispatcher said that. Now you say he wasn't told to stop following him.

Well which is it? Was he told or not? You're pulling a "Romney" with that kind of bold flip-flop.

 

[Excon]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

so that is not evidence.

Wrong.
It is evidence and was used in the investigation.
If it wasn't consistent with what others reported, he would already have been arrested.
And if it turned out to be a lie, or contain a lie, you better bet it would be used in court as evidence also.

 

[mogur15]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Zimmerman's statement is consistent with hers because hers does not rule out what he says happened.


So yeah, Zimmerman's statement is consistent with her statement.

How is that again? Zimmerman and Martin were talking to each other with Martin behind Zimmerman? That is not consistency, that is refutation. How does Zimmerman's claim that he lost sight of Martin and was going back to his SUV when attacked by Martin, square with the girlfriend's statement that she heard them confront each other verbally? With bated breath.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

nothing BS about, if you disagree with my statement thats on you and it must make you feel guilty or something that you are trying to attack it.

The truth is you dont know if it applies to this case there is no evidence saying it does mine was just an example, notice the part where I said guilty of many crimes or not LMAO

nice try but you field and my statement stands while yours has zero backing

tell me that cool part about BS again? :lamo

Sadly, this day was inevitable. When the law was being passed, many people were outraged over it because they felt like it would lead to murderers set free under the guise of self-defense. Maybe this will at least motivate the powers that be to change it, if not repeal it all together.

 

[Thunder]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Now you're typing out of both sides of your keyboard. Earlier in the thread, you said unequivically, Zimmerman cut off the pursuit when the 911 dispatcher said that. Now you say he wasn't told to stop following him.

Well which is it? Was he told or not? You're pulling a "Romney" with that kind of bold flip-flop.

the folks who are defending Zimmerman, are pulling alot of flip-flops and flat-out lies.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

I think the Grand Jury trial they're planning will tell the tale. IMVHO, it will hinge on the exact wording of the law and given that exact wording, if the grand jury believes that the law is intended to protect someone who instigates a confrontation...because I think that's what Zimmerman did. I know you don't believe that; maybe it's because I'm a women -- and in that scenerio, I would call what Zimmerman did a confrontation. I would have been afraid.

I am debating this from 3 directions. One is legalistic - does evidence WE know support a conviction? I don't think so - clearly not - but forensic evidence MAY change that.

Second, I am offended at asserting facts unknown, just assumed or outright false to feed a hatred of Zimmerman that I think the media drummed up. I have had no problems calling him names myself, but he's just a somewhat messed up ordinary guy who in some twisted way thought he was looking out for his neighborhood. In short, when calling someone a murderer, at least make the reasons accurate reasons.
Third, I debate against some of the extreme attitudes and policies people declare in this that I disagree with. Those may seem like supporting Zimmerman, but I'm actually disputing the issue overall, not him.

I don't have a problem with you calling what Zimmerman did a confrontation. A woman very much would have had reason to be afraid. I don't doubt that regardless of race (which I think has NOTHING to do with any of this nor any relevancy), if with these "facts" if who had been shot and killed was a 17 year old teenage girl that Zimmerman would have been arrested on the spot - UNLESS that somehow perceived as being very fight capable (such a large teenage girl with a Black Belt).

I gave an a very extreme example of where a certain woman's "reasonable" action against potential danger or confrontation allows much, much more than I would or most men. But even if your interpretation is accurate, one person starting a non-violent confrontation does not then make all that follows his fault or a criminal. Where this matter turned criminal is when it turned violent. And that exact 15 to 30 seconds we don't know enough about.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

the folks who are defending Zimmerman, are pulling alot of flip-flops and flat-out lies.

You got that exactly backwards.

 

[Thunder]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

...I don't have a problem with you calling what Zimmerman did a confrontation. A woman very much would have had reason to be afraid....

but a 17 year old kid DOES'NT have the option of fear?

sorry friend, but your POV on this topic is totally lacking in any logic.

 

[hazlnut]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Riiiiight. I think you are the one mis-characterizing the situation. The narrative is pretty clear. Im not sure what others see in this case. I see an overzealous neighborhood watchman, carrying a weapon in a situation he shouldnt have been, following a kid he had no business following after being told by a real officer not to, for suspicious behavior that didnt exist. The 17 year old kid very likely overreacted to being stalked and harassed by the overzealous neighborhood watchman. Regardless...the responsibile agent is still the overzealous neighborhood watchman who was carrying a weapon in a situation he shouldnt have been, following a kid he had no business following after being told by a real officer not to, for suspicious behavior that didnt exist.

Well said.

In fact, I'm sure that will be the closing argument for the prosecution should this ever go to trial.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Absoulutely correct. The guy was a predator looking for a weaker prey to attack.
The police are to protect the community and they needed to jail him to protect any future victims. He already has a violent history and now he has killed an innocent kid walking down the street.

Zimmerman's lies about the kid acting suspicious and like he was on drugs is just a ploy to cover his ass. What if the kid had intellectual disability or even a physical disability that affected his gait? To many here that would be reason to chase him down and kill him.

My guess is that when he asked Trayvon what he was doing there, he reached out and either grabbed, or tried to grab Trayvon, in order to detain him until the police arrived; and then Trayvon began to fight back. If something like that did transpire, we may likely never know unless Zimmerman slips up and reveals the details of their confrontation.

 

[joko104]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Sadly, this day was inevitable. When the law was being passed, many people were outraged over it because they felt like it would lead to murderers set free under the guise of self-defense. Maybe this will at least motivate the powers that be to change it, if not repeal it all together.

In every rage piece by MSNBC, they explain this was caused by gun-owners rights and proves those rights need be taken away. I've pointed out numerous times what you just confirm. Fundamentally, the media is event of this is an anti-gun rights crusade.

 

[Thunder]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

In every rage piece by MSNBC, they explain this was caused by gun-owners rights and proves those rights need be taken away.....

evidence??????

 

[Thunder]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

My guess is that when he asked Trayvon what he was doing there, he reached out and either grabbed, or tried to grab Trayvon, in order to detain him until the police arrived; and then Trayvon began to fight back. If something like that did transpire, we may likely never know unless Zimmerman slips up and reveals the details of their confrontation.

i have no doubt that Zimmerman was approaching Martin at an aggressive pace, and meant to get right up in his grill.

and Martin, as he is allowed under the SYG law, wasn't gonna have any of that.

.....so Zimmerman shot him for it.

 

[Excon]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Now you're typing out of both sides of your keyboard. Earlier in the thread, you said unequivically, Zimmerman cut off the pursuit when the 911 dispatcher said that. Now you say he wasn't told to stop following him.

Well which is it? Was he told or not? You're pulling a "Romney" with that kind of bold flip-flop.

No. I think you are having reading difficulties.

Please stand by.

You are confusing two separate issues.
One is the 'correction of false' and dissemination of correct information, as in, he was not "told" to do anything.
Two, it was being said that he didn't turn around, where according to the evidence, he did at one point, turn around and head back to his truck.
So on both accounts the people making these statements were wrong.
I hope that clears up your confusion.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

Zimmerman's statement is consistent with hers because hers does not rule out what he says happened.


So yeah, Zimmerman's statement is consistent with her statement.

Yes, it does rule out what he said. He said he was walking back to his SUV and was attacked from behind. According to her, Trayvon asked him why he was following him and Zimmerman asked what Trayvon was doing there. Explain how two people who are deadly suspicious of each other can hold a conversation but one of them gets attacked from behind?

 

[MaggieD]

Re: Family of Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch volunteer feel 'betrayed' by

But even if your interpretation is accurate, one person starting a non-violent confrontation does not then make all that follows his fault or a criminal. Where this matter turned criminal is when it turned violent. And that exact 15 to 30 seconds we don't know enough about.

Very thoughtful response. I understand where you're coming from.

I'm content knowing that two Federal agencies are investigating this event and that a grand jury will be convened. It's very troubling to me that the SYG law will excuse someone for killing another person who is minding his own business, not doing anything wrong, unarmed and outweighed by a hundred pounds. In other states without this particular law, one is allowed to use reasonable force. And outside in a public place the burden would be on the shooter to prove that he had to use his gun as a last resort. Zimmerman (for that reason and others) would have been arrested.

I think the law itself needs tweaking...I think neighborhood watch programs need to have rules and regulations...under this SYG law, this guy can't even be found civilly liable. And it's a damn shame.